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JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Willi Reschke has written extensively of a successful intercept mission flown by JG 301 on 17 Dec 44, sretching from Hannover to Kassel & resulting in claims for 2 B-24, 1 P-51, and 1 P-47, with few losses known (to Reschke). Can anyone identify the Allied opponents? The 8th Air Force was not up (ref: Foreman), and Middlebrook mentions no RAF BC day mission.
Horrido! Don |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
IIRC 15th AF B-24s - 49th bomb Wing was over Silesia ..although there were other 15 AF penetrations over Salzburg & Wels..
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Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Thanks, Falke. The 15th AF was intercepted by JG 300. This combat is well-documented by Lorant & Goyat. If Reschke is correct, the JG 301 mission on this date was in the opposite direction -- with combat over Hannover and Kassel. It's the JG 301 mission that's the mystery.
Don |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Fifteenth Air Force attacked this day by 191 "Fortresses" from 5.BW Oil refinery at Blechhammer-Nordh, Blechhammer-Süd attacked 105 B-24 "Liberator" from 55. BW and Odertal visited 231 B-24 "Liberator" from 49. and 304. BW. So total power of 527 four engine bombers. Naturally fighter cover was made by 93 P-38 "Lightning" from 305. FW and 207 P-51 "Mustang" from 306. FW.
Over Reich area was that day bad weather. That was one thing, which played for 15.AF. But HQ of 15.AF didn't know, that defence of Reich area was hold by JG 300 and JG 301 (other units were in Ardennes as support forces for ground offensive), which were also known as "Schlechtwettergeschwadern" (bad weather units). Their pilots had special training from times, when they flew in nights only by gear. So when radiolocators Freya detected bombers, forming into big formation, German fighters were alarmed. At 10.45 took off from Jüteborg airfield Stab and III. Gruppe, from Borkheide airfield took off I. Gruppe, from Löbnitz started II. Sturmgruppe and from Reinzdorf was alerted IV. Gruppe JG 300. Stab and II. Gruppe flew FW 190 A-7 and A-8, other three units were as cover on Bf 109 G-10 and G-14. Together took off about 100 aircrafts. German fighters, covered by clouds, approach the bombers. American fighters were delayed, so Germans attacked. At 11.50 began combat. It was over Czech in area of Olomouc and Přerov. First victims were "Liberators" from 49. BW. Germans dropped their additional fuel tanks. As first opened fire pilots of Sturmgruppe. These pilots claimed between 11.53 and 12.03 22 "Liberators". Some of them scored twice. Those were Fw. Zwesken and Maj. Lindenberger. It the case of second named, it was great success, because he was veteran from WWI with 12 victories. On this day he claimed 2 US bombers but ended WWII with 4 victories. Pilots of III./ JG 300 were also successfull. Between 11.53 and 12.20 claimed ten bombers. Hptm. Peter Jenne shot down two of them. Lt. Kraft, pilot of a messerschmitt from III./ JG 300 shot down "Liberator" B-24J 42-51835 "red 38", from 825.squadron, 484. BG. But Krafts messerschmitt was also hit and had to leave is plan by parachute. After landing German citizens took him off their shoulders and take him to village as hero. Uffz. Maier from IV./ JG 300 claimed one B-17 in area East of village Kozlí. That was sole success for IV. Gruppe in the battle with bombers. Together claimed JG 300 pilots 33 bombers. But American losses were made by "only" 25 machines. This massacra was stoped by fighters, which came to help their "Big friends". They shown, who was in that time boss in the air over Europe. American fighters claimed 23-3-6. German losses were higher. JG 300 lost 43 aircraft. 36 of them by fighters and 7 by technical failures. Stab lost one, I./ JG 300 also one, II./ JG 300 and IV. / JG 300 lost every 14 machines and III./ JG 300 lost 13 fighter planes. But also American fighters had losses. Three Focke Wulfs chased and shot down P-38J 42-68073 (black 20) "Coon Dog III" of 2/Lt. David R. Miles. Right engine caught fire, and pilot bailed out. It was over village Vinary, CZ. Most probably it was pilot of II./ JG 300, Fw. Dohms, who shot him down. Second lost "Lightning" over Czech was P-38L 44-24666 "Melancholy Babe". Its pilot 2/Lt. Ernest V. Rountree probably fall victim to Lt. Pipke from IV./ JG 300, who claimed P-38 shot down in area of Nisa. Together fighter cover lost in this battle 4 P-38 and 2 Mustangs. One P-51 claimed Lt. Köhler and another Obgefr. Golja, but "their" "Mustangs" didn't crash in area of Czech. Other American losses caused Flak. Also JG 301 joined action against "viermots". "Alarmstart" for their Gruppen came at 10.55. All planes took course toward Soutwest heading to the area of Hannover. In this area they met small box of "Liberators" and their figter cover made by P-47(!). I. and II. Gruppe attacked fighters, III. Gruppe, which flew lower than other two, attacked bombers. For the III. Gruppe scored Fw. Willi Reschke (9.staffel), who claimed one B-24 and one P-51 in area of Göttingen, and Ofw. Hans Todt (8.staffel) who shot down one P-47 in that same area. Also Uffz. Helmut Brenner from 6.staffel II. Gruppe shot down one B-24 in area between Hannover and Kassel. Also losses were on German side. Lt. Walter Tauscher from 11. staffel was wounded in combat. He flew Fw 190 A/8 "yellow 10" (W.Nr.682001). Also Uffz. Walter Döbele from 8. staffel was lost. But we don't know cause. Probably due hits in combat he crashed in area of Sachau. Opponents of JG 301 are unknown. 15.AF probably didn't fly so far (but it is possible), and cover of P-47 could come from 9.AF, which made over 1000 starts that day. Maybe with some mystakes..it is an old text:) |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Hi Peter --
I'm no European, and my knowledge of your geography is not that good, but I can read a map, and in a quick SWAG Hannover and Kassel are roughly 600km from Blechhammer and Odertal. Are you saying that some of the B-24s (& P-51s) were that far off course, in the direction opposite their bases in Italy, which were already at maximum range from the Silesian targets? I'm sorry, I don't buy it. Some (American) navigator would have screamed. Also, a screw-up that big would have found its way into the American records, and I can find no trace of it in any of my 15th AF stuff. Do you have anything on the JG 301 mission that isn't found in Reschke's book? Horrido! Don |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
W. Reschke must be mistaken because on 17 December 1944, the weather was so foul that bomber ops with the 9th and 12 AAFs were canceled. As FalkeEins correctly says, only the 15th AAF was able to fly missions. These were directed toward oil refineries at Blechhammer North and South, and Moravska-Ostrava. Marshaling yards at Gross Strehiltz, Villach, Saak, Salzburg and Wels were also hit. Escorts were P-38s and P-51s. Luftwaffe opposition was the hevaiest since the previous August. But American claims list 55 victories shared between bombers and fighters.
Hal |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Don - the 354th FG got its first P-47 score (an Me 410 at Kitzingen) by Dahlglish) on the 17th and lost Tyler (Macr 10991) about 20 miles south of Aachen - presumably in very bad weather. They were nowhere near Hannover. The 354th was engaged in ground support generally from Eupen to Trier.
8th AF was standing down but I doubt that a 9th AF P-47 group was assigned to escort the 2nd BD B-24s. I would think that the JG 301 Mustang claim had to be from one of the Recce groups. |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Hi Hal --
Thanks for the useful confirmation of the foul weather over western Europe. I'm inclining to your conclusion that Reschke is mistaken. But in which sense? Was the 17 Dec 44 mission flown against the 15th AF, which means that all of his details WRT direction after takeoff, location of combats & crashes, etc. are incorrect? Or does he simply have his date wrong, and he is in fact describing a combat (on another date) against a small formation of 8th AF B-24s and their escorts of P-51s (and P-47s?). I'm having a hard time finding a suitable 8th AF combat match, but I'm hampered by the fact that Reschke is the primary source of data for many of the missions he describes, so there's no independent source to match him up against. Horrido! Don |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Greetings Don
hate to say it but Reschkes book is incorrect on the date it should read December 23rd not the 17th. have done a number of years research on JG 301, going on about 20 now. fun research Erich ~ |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
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Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Thanks, Erich --
Your suggestion that the correct date is 23 Dec looks like a good one. I can't match your 20 years of research, but will match up what Reschke says for the 17th with what I have for the 23rd and report back to all. Horrido! Don |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
sure go ahead .......
E ~ |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Hi Dragondog --
I can accept that 9 AF units were up on 17 Dec despite the bad weather, but that is irrelevant WRT my basic question of the JG 301 mission as described by Reschke -- JG 301 would not have flown from Berlin to battle tactical aircraft over the western front, on 17 Dec or any other date. I'm thinking Erich has solved my problem, but am checking my 23 Dec data for uh-ohs. Don |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
SATURDAY, 23 DECEMBER 1944
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown. Mission 757: 423 bombers and 636 fighters are dispatched to hit marshalling yards, communication centers and a rail junction in the rear of the battle area; 75-150 Luftwaffe aircraft are encountered and the AAF claims 75-5-23; 7 fighter are lost: 1. 148 of 153 B-17s hit the marshalling yard at Ehrang; 45 B-17s are damaged; 1 airman is KIA and 1 WIA. Escorting are 54 of 62 P-51s; they claim 20-0-3 aircraft without loss. 2. 113 B-24s are sent to bomb communication centers at Ahrweiler (48), Junkerath (31) and Dahlem (27); 74 B-24s are damaged; 3 airmen are WIA. Escort is provided by 243 of 254 P-51s; they claim 1-0-0 aircraft; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA) and 1 damaged beyond repair. 3. 152 B-17s are dispatched to hit marshalling yards at Homburg (58) and Kaiserslautern (40) and the rail junction at Homburg; 6 others hit targets of opportunity; they claim 6-4-5 aircraft; 77 B-17s are damaged; 1 airman is WIA and 7 MIA. Escorting are 112 of 117 P-51s; they claim 2-0-0 aircraft without loss. 4. 6 of 6 B-17s fly a screening mission. 5. 163 P-47s and P-51s fly a fighter sweep of the Bonn, Germany area; they claim 46-1-15 aircraft; 3 P-47s and 3 P-51s are lost (all pilots MIA). 6. 20 P-51s fly a scouting mission without loss. Mission 758: 5 B-17s and 7 B-24s are dispatched to drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands and Germany during the night; only 10 aircraft drop leaflets. The 374th, 375th and 376th Fighter Squadrons, 361st Fighter Group, based at Little Walden, England with P-51s, begin operating from St Dizier, France; the 486th and 487th Fighter Squadrons, 352d Fighter Group, based at Bodney, England, begin operating from Asch, Belgium with P-51s. |
Re: JG 301 mission -- 23 Dec or 17 Dec 44?
Here's some of my data that appear relevant to the hypothesis that JG 301 flew on 23 Dec 44:
1. JG 301 losses -- none in the RLM "Strichliste" (BA-MA RL 2 III/xxx) - this proves nothing either way, of course. 2. JG 301 claims -- none in the RLM claims microfilms -- this proves nothing either way, either; these have just about played out by this date. 3. 8th AF 2nd BD activity (this was the B-24 command) -- the INTOPS Summary for this date says 113 B-24s were dispatched against commo targets at Junkerath, Dahlem, and Ahrweiler. E/a opposition: nil; losses: nil. These targets were serving the Ardennes offensive and were fairly close to the battle lines -- nowhere near Kassel, at any rate. So from my data, 23 Dec 44 doesn't look like a good replacement for Reschke's 17 Dec 44. Erich, please come back. One possibility that hasn't been addressed here is a small RAF Bomber Command day raid -- Lancs and Mustang IIIs instead of B-24s and P-51s -- that didn't find its way into Middlebrook. Any RAF BC experts out there? The date of such a raid, as far as I'm concerned, is open. Horrido! Don |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Good evening Don !
As you mentioned, both dates don't seem to match up. When the Ardennes offensive was launched on Dec. 16th 1944, the Luftwaffe Fighter units had been rebuilt powerful to support this mission. There were many missions of Luftwaffe Figgter units on Sunday, December 17th 1944 in the Ardennes area. But only there !. The same on Dec. 23rd 1944. All in all, more tan 2,000 a/c of both sides were in the air, but mostly around the Ardennes and tactical targets relating to the Ardennes. There were missions in Southern Germany by 12th AF, but no around Hannover-Kassel. The date of Reschke's report must be checked, since Dec. 17th doesn't seem to be realistic as well as Dec. 23rd. All the best ! Horst Weber |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Hallo Horst!
Sending one of the few RLV day units from the Berlin area all the way to the Ardennes battlefront would seem illogical, but we know that this is exactly what happened on 24 Dec to both JG 300 and JG 301. So JG 301 could have been ordered all the way to the Ardennes area on the 23rd. Reschke's Hannover-Kassel locations cannot be taken literally; they seem to have gotten stuck in his head and are used several places in his book where they don't belong. But in my mind, an additional problem with Erich's hypothesis that Reschke's 17 Dec should really be 23 Dec is Reschke's time of takeoff -- 1055 hours -- when the HBs had not even cleared England (their TOTs were 1223-52). I'm working with Erich off-line on the problem, and hope to report back to all if anything gets resolved. Horrido! Don |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
For what it's worth 37 years after publication, Werner Girbig's "Six Months to Oblivion" (aka «Start im Morgengrauen») devotes a section to 17 December 1944. After describing the actions over the Ardennes, he talks of JG 300 taking on B-24s coming up from the Gulf of Trieste over SE Germany and the Sudetenland. He says JG 300 lost 23 aircraft and pilots but doesn't mention JG 301.
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Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Hi Nick --
None of the "official" data mention any sort of mission by JG 301 vs the 15th AF (or anyone else) on 17 Dec, and Reschke's description of a mission to the west against heavy bombers is up against the Allied records, which state that the 8th AF heavies didn't fly. "23 Dec" has been proposed as the true date of this mission, but if Reschke's 1055 takeoff time is correct, catching the 8th AF, which bombed Ardennes commo targets at 1230, & returning to Stendal, which his memoir implies, would have required an impossibly-long 3+ hour mission, and his stated encounter locations are nowhere near the Ardennes. (Plus, the B-24s reported no e/a sightings.) Another possibility is that "17 Dec" was not a separate mission at all, but should be conflated with 24 Dec or 31 Dec; Reschke's memory might have played him tricks, and split out part of one of those missions as a distinct set of events. Gad, this is fun. Don |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Good evening Don & Nick !
What's about Dec. 12th, 15th and 18th missions of Eighth AF ? Horst Weber |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Hello Horst --
I have no evidence for or against any of these dates. There is no JG 301 data for any of them in my German sources. RLV activity against the 8th AF on these dates was so scant that I did not copy the 8th AF mission reports or INTOPS summaries, so don't have the TOTs. I have been promised some data from Reschke's logbook next week. Assuming it lists a mission for "17 Dec", his landing time and location, plus the TOTs, might allow some of these dates to be eliminated as possibilities. But given the fact that I can't confirm Reschke's "17 Dec" claims and losses from any other source, positive confirmation of a date (any date!) may be impossible. Don |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Don,
I reschke book he states that Lt. Walter Tauscher was lost on 17.12.1944. Actually RL2-III-1170 says this happened on 5.12.1944. Perhaps a clue? Regards, John |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Hi Don,
In Checking Reschke's Flugbuch here's what I found; on 17 December He took off at 10:55 on a Feindflug from Stendal landing back at Stendal at 11:40. He did not fly on the 23 of December. His next combat mission was on 1 Janurary 1945. Cheers, Jerry |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Hey Jerry just got into a work related injury-accident so the call will have to wait.
Reschke's book has several gaps resulting in some great big questions. the 5th of December 44 mission which I have much was over-riding the area around Berlin and to the east with JG 1's Fw's, JG 301 meeting head-up with the brightly colored STangs of the 356th fg with one of the biggest hideous fighter vs fighter engagements. still think the 23rd works in part not for Reschke personally. the 24th the Jagd flew as well as the 31 and probably inbetween with call backs due to late start and just not being in the right area at the right time. more to come.............later |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Hello John, Jerry, Erich --
From Jerry's Flugbuch report we can rule out 23 Dec as a replacement for Reschke's "17 Dec". John's report from German records on Tauscher's loss (or injury?) on 5 Dec is an intriguing clue, but Reschke's extensive writeup of the 5 Dec JG 301 mission makes no mention that he himself flew. Could he have forgotten that he flew on 5 Dec, but had a definite memory of flying another mission (shooting down a B-24, etc., for which he apparently had film at one time) to which he arbitrarily assigned a date of 17 Dec? Possibly, but that's a memory trick I find hard to believe. Jerry, you can help with this one. Does Reschke's FB mention a flight on 5 Dec? If so, we can possibly mush his 17 Dec report into the 5 Dec report. If not, we can't -- unless his FB is in error! (Which did happen, by the way.) Gosh, this is fun.... Don |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Don,
He did fly on 5 December. It's listed as a vergieicns fliegen (what ever that is). He took off at 9:10 and landed at 9:29 again from Stendal. When he gave me this copy of his Flugbuch He did warn me there possibly could be "errors". Hmmm. Good luck! Cheers, Jerry |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
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«vergleichen» means "to compare" |
Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
as mentioned earlier JG 301 engaged B-17's on the 5th of December along with numerous P-51's, so the B-24 engagement(s) by Reschke and one or more of his Kameraden is ruled out.
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Re: JG 301 mission on 17 Dec 44
Thanks Jerry & Nick --
A "Vergleichsfliegen" could have been a comparison flight with another type of aircraft, but since this one lasted only 19 minutes it was probably to check out new equipment in his airplane. It wasn't a Feindflug, so he wasn't on the 5 Dec combat mission he describes in his book. So we're left with no good candidates for the mysterious "17 Dec" flight. Gosh, this is fun..... Don |
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