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7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
hello, someone has information about the confimation of these pilots, if there are reliable claimers or severe overclaimers:
GERMAN 267 Otto Kittel (reliable claimer??) 208 Theodor Weissenberger (¿¿??) 189 Max Stotz (reliable claimer??) 178 Johannes Steinhoff (reliable claimer??) 162 Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke 140 Friedrich-Karl 'Tutti' Muller 135 Joachim Muncheberg (reliable claimer??) 133 Alfred Grislawski 125 Dietrich Hrabak 123 Herbert Ihlefeld (reliable claimer??) 122 Wolfgang Tonne (reliable claimer??) 121 Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer 114 Werner Schroer (reliable claimer??) 111 Helmut Lent 108 Hans 'Assi' Hahn (reliable claimer??) 105 Günther Lutzow (reliable claimer??) 102 Josef Wurmheller 78 Heinrich Krafft 68 Fritz Losigkeit 63 Gerhard Homuth 59 Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt 54 Hannes Trautloft (reliable claimer??) 53 Julius Meimberg 44 Heinz Knoke (reliable claimer??) 34 Günther Specht 30 Friedrich-Karl "Nasen" Müller SPANISH-BLUE STAFFEL---- 12 Gonzalo Hevia Alvarez de Quinones FINLAND---- 94 Eino Ilmari Juutilainen 53.5 Eino Antero Lukkanen 42 Olli Puhakka 32 Kyösti Karhila ROMANIA---- 53 Constantine Cantacuzino 52-44 Alexandre Serbanescu KROATIA---- 44 Mato Dukovac 38 Galic Cvitan JAPAN---- 51-39 Satoshi Anabuki 32-18 Takeo Tanimizu HUNGARY---- 34 Dezjö Szentgyörgyi 28 Lajos Toth 26 György Debrödy Slovakia ---- 32 Jan Reznak 28 Izidor Kovaric ITALY----- 22+14 Teresio Martinoli 21+3 Leonardo Ferrulli (+1 spain) 19 Luigi Gorrini 17+3 Ugo Drago -------------------ALLIED POLAND---- 22 Stanislaw Skalski 18 Boleslaw Michal Gladych 16.5 Eugeniusz Horbaczewski CANADA---- 31.33 George "Buzz" Beurling AUSTRALIA---- 28.5 Clive "Killer" Caldwell New Zealand---- 27.5 Colin Gray 23 Alan Deere USA---- 40 Richard Bong 28 Francis "Gabby" Gabreski 27 Robert S. Johnson 27 Charles H. McDonald 26.83 George E. Preddy 24 John C. Meyer 21.5 Frederick J. Christensen 17 Ira Casius Kepford 16 George Schwartz Welch England---- 38-34+7 James Edgar "Johnnie" Johnson 28 James Harry "Ginger" Lacey 26.5 Eric Stanley Lock 25 Billy Drake 20 Michael Crossley South Africa---- 18 Johannes Jacobus Le Roux J RUSSIA---- 62 Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub 56+6-59+6-60+3 Grigori A. Reschkalow 56+6-59+6 Aleksandr Ivanovich Pokryshkin 53+3 Kirill Yevstigneyev Alexeevich 41+17 Vitalii Ivanovich Popkov 19 Georgiy A Bayevskiy SPANISH in VVS--- 35 (27+8) Juan Lario Sanchez 20 Vicente Beltran FRANCE---- 18 Pierre Le Gloan NORWAY---- 14+1 Svein Heglund IRLAND---- 26+6 Brendan Eamonn Fergus Finucane |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Another exercise in futility.
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Hello G
On Finns Juutilainen, fairly inaccurate claimer Luukkanen, average Puhakka and Karhila, fairly accurate Juha |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Müncheberg, Schroer(both very honest) and Meimberg were honest, possibly Stotz and Steinhoff also.
Weissenberger, and Wurmheller(especially) were dis-honest. Knoke only had half of his claims confirmed, but I think he was possibly dis-honest. I don't know about Hahn, but judging by his claim pattern, and his association with Jg2 is likely to be dis-honest. I think that Meimberg was one of the few honest Jg2 pilots! Regards Johannes |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
From the little that I've ran across on Hannes Trautloft, he seems to be good claimer but his Spanish Civil War and Polish(?) claims are hard to pin point (I posted a thread trying to determine them).
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
many thanks for the information, with german pilots i only wrong with Wick and Hans Philipp. Hans Assi Hann maybe is a overclaimer ¿?, but someone have he number of the claims aproved by the enemy of these pilots....for example Mölders 33 in Russia-20 confirmed by VVS.......and for the other countries....
regards |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Hi With Mölders his last claim over Russia on 15th July 1941 seems never have to been confirmed, reducing his 33 to 32 or !at least)over 60%, which is about correct for an honest claimer i.e about two-thirds actually crash, and as he is alleged to have made dozens more after his flying ban, for which he didn't bother to submit a claim, then I think we can safely say he was an honest guy! In fact if two-thirds of a pilots claims actually crash, then they are honest.....but mistaken, though this could be down to there wingmen actually witnessing the crash! With night fighters it's the crew that confirmed it, and a flamming bomber is obvious.
Kind Regards Johannes |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Hi
Just curious - what sources have been use for the lists? Someone must obviously have collected and cross-referenced all losses of both allied and axis air forces with a hitherto unknown degree of accuracy. As one who has been trying to compile these I would be very interested in including this work in my own research. I am especially interested in the losses of the soviet air force, as such lists covering the entire war in the east on all front areas with aircraft serial numbers, locations and so on has been unavailable. I naturally assume that this has been done before this list was published on the internet, especially when allied pilotes are listed, as it seems a lot of people are annoyed when their war heroes are listed as unreliable. Several of the names listed have been used as sources for publications that probably should be revised, with notes on their reliability as historical sources. Regards, Andreas B |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
On overclaiming''i read in my books-by historiacly accurate endorsed book authors;
fighter and bomber claims.1941-42- the turning point books and many others by such endorsed authors- one states fight with me 109s one seen with smoke ? and me 109s claimed 4- spifires only 2 were lost-2 force landed. on ..COAST' .NOW THE GERMAN PILOT's WENT HOME NOT MAKIN THIS AS A THERE CLAIMs.. YET WAS THEY RIGHT FOR THE CLAIMS..??? to be added on there scores... ''GIVEN THAT 2 SPITFIRES FORCE LANDED ON ENGLISH SOIL..FROM THERE BASE.. over claiming surly Not.. Sharon'' |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
I agree with the matching Allied losses. With regards to Barkhorn he is cited as an accurate claimer until to approaches the 300 mark, but after 272 claims he own papers do not provide times or place of his claim, only the date and type, therefore during this period when his claims are questioned how can they be matched against Russian losses, with the exception of no Russian losses of that type that day?(and then you have to consider mis-identification of aircraft type), moreover though Barkhorn was ambitious to get the Brillianten to his Ritterkreuz, it's unlikely that he would change from being a accurate(honest) claimer to making false claims! Same could be said about Hartmann's "352/80" after Novemebr 1944 there are very few of his claims that are well documented, therefore it is almost impossible to analyse this period of his career, though I will concede that he is unlikely to have changed from being a fraudulent claimer to a honest one.....unless he was with new company, but I don't think that is the case. I guess if his overclaiming is true, it's a good job he was German and not English.......or he would have gone into politics!
Regards Johannes |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Thank you for the information, I was looking at Assi Hahn's claims and I believe that if it did overclaims it can be more in russia that in england because has many multiple claims.... but i don´t know because JG 2 does not have good reputation....
what about Hartmann?...we need to open a new forum for this!!... which claims are REALLY CONFIRMED to him by soviets 80-120-150... in internet are many webs pro-Hartmann and against Hartmann but not the true information.. regards |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
The last claims of Barkhorn do not seem to be exagerate but the claims of Hartmann are too much in a little time.
Somebody have info about de 15 claims one day or 30 en four days of Hubert Strassl, seems like Hartmann.... |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
The Russian author Vitaliy Gorbach had nothing bad to say about Hubert Strassl's cliams in his book on the Kursk air battle.
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Wow it´s incredible, i always thinking in overclaims in examples like this or Emil Lang (18 one day).....
I was completely wrong, thanks over Assi Hahn what do you think? regards |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
I know very little about Hans "Assi" Hahn's claims. On looking at the 11Feb43 he claimed 3 Curtiss P-40 from 09:52-09:58 in the Leningrad area and Lt. Max Stotz in the same battle claimed 2 Curtiss P-40. I know of only one loss from that battle which was a P-40 of the 158 IAP in which Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Gavrikov was listed MIA. If there were any forced landings or damaged I don't have anything. I'd go with Stotz from what little I've read in the past of him.
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Hi
Johannes thinks the same thing... I put Hann in overclaimers with ? and i´m waiting for more info. about Kittel i don´t find anything and nobody speaks of anything bad or for anything good ¿? and about Ihlefeld?? i found that he would be reliable?? but i´m not sure -> (43 claims by Ihlefeld and Geisshardt ,the Soviets registered 31 losses, but Soviet aircraft that belly-landed in friendly territory can be justifyably claimed as shot down by German pilots, whereas the Soviets did not file them as losses, because they could be repaired.....) over 72% + maybe some damaged... from -> http://www.lwag.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-389.html discussion about overclaims. on the other hand of Ihle i found a surprise: 00.02.45 Herbert Ihlefeld: n.b.?? JG1 P-51? £ not confirmed? , in He-162, while practicing training flights - eyewitness: Fw. Sell regards. |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Here is some information on Obfw. Hans Schleef 7./JG3 who had 99 victories. On the 7May43 NW of Slov'yans'k (Sslawjansk) he claimed two "Bostons" for his 61st and 62nd at 04:13 and 04:14. His 61st was Ml. Lt. Baykov of the 861 BAP which crashed 3-4km from Yasnaya Gorka and his 62nd Starshina Zhivulin of the 861 BAP was hit but managed to make it to Bogorodichnoe (I believe it's now Bohorodychne) before crashing. The second wave of nine is harder to determine Uffz Heinz Luedtke 8./JG3 his 2nd victory 4:14 NW of Kramatorskaya & 3rd 4:20 W of Krasny Liman, Uffz. Norbet Geyer 7./JG3 4:18 W of Krasny Liman, Uffz Franz Birnstill 9./JG3 4:29 E of Grizojewka, Lt. Fritz Voss 8./JG3 E of Krasny Liman. Uffz Harald Frenzel of the 9. claimed a Boston for his 3rd way to the south of this attack (no idea on who he was attacking). There was only 3 other Bostons that went down in the second wave of the 861 BAP.
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Nokose do you have AC & crew data for both waves? TIA
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
I'll give you the pilots only as there are to many crew members that are KIA and MIA.
Schleef's (61) Ml.Lt. Georgiy Ilich Baykov [KIA](62) Ml.Lt. Aleksandr Vladimirovich Zhivulin [KIA]. There is one more loss then the previous post for the 2nd wave of nine. The leader of that section stated all nine were burning from the attack. (1) Ml.Lt. Eduard Mikhaylovich Shishkov (KIA) 861 BAP (2) Ml.Lt. Evgeniy Pavlovich Kapishnikov (KIA) 861 BAP (3) Serzh. Andreev 861 BAP (4) Lt. Lebedev 861 BAP. Luedtke claimed his 2nd & 3rd victory, Geyer his 2nd, Birnstill his 2nd, Voss his 2nd, and Frenzel his 3rd. |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
As usual Nokose. Many Thanks
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Rob, in the same battle Fw. Emil Zibler 9./JG3 claimed his 34th victory over a La-5 at 4:25 w. of Krasny Liman. Not for want of trying on his part, Ml.Lt. Kalsin in his La-5 from the 5 GIAP got away. WIA by splinters in the right arm, his La-5 had 13 holes in the fuselage, 4 in the motor and 2 in the planes.
The Soviet pilots claimed to have shot down two Bf 109. Kapt. Verteletskiy of the 5 GIAP one Bf 109 at Pervomayskoe. Ml. Lt. Sergey Grigorevich Glinkin 5 GIAP his 5th a Bf 109 2-3 km SW of Mayaki. I'm not sure of these locations compared to Sslawjansk but I believe that Uffz Oskar Loeffler 8./JG3 in Bf 109G-4 (19339) 100% 10 km SE of Sslawjansk might have been from Glinkin. It lists the cause as "Erdabwehr bei Tierfangriff, Ueberschlag Notandung" (My German is not good at all, sorry). |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Quote:
Michael, do you use the russian personal loss data base for your search? |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Only for getting the full names, unit, rank and date correct from the OBD. This case was from a Russian published source and from confirming somethings in the new JFV 12/I. There was mention of two Bf 109s strafing a downed "Boston" on the ground after it forced landed but that was in Russian territory. Maybe Nikita knows if the location of Glinkin's claim is in the same spot.
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Michael,
This was in one and the same combat between 4.45-5.50 (M.T.). 244 BAD lost two B-3 to fighters, 1 B-3 to Flak, two more B-3 conducted belly landings. No losses among fighters of 5 GIAP and 867 IAP reported. |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Thank you Nikita. Oleg Rastrenin's description is what I when on here.
"After the bomb release the first formation of nine (led by regiment commander Mayor Nikiforov) was attacked by a German fighter group of 9 Bf 109 and FW 190. The fighters approached from the direction of Kramatorsk airfield and attacked the Soviet bombers from behind and below. The first attack has set on fire Mladshiy Leytenant Baykov's aircraft. The right motor caught fire. According to the testimony of the returning crews, he tried to knock down the flames, but fell into a tailspin, and burning he crashed into ravine near State Farm #5 within 3-4 km from the village of Yasnaya Gorka. From the the aircraft jumped one parachutist. In all likelyhood, this was the navigator of the crew Starshina Smirnov. Almost simultaneously caught fire the "Boston: of Starshina Zhivulin's from the composition of the third section. The right wing caught on fire on his aircraft. Apparently, there was a hit and the right fuel tank caught fire. On the report of the regiment commander Mayor Nikiforov, Starshina Zhivulin with a decline stretched it out to his territory, at 3 km northwest of the populated area of Bogorodichnoe, he touched the tree tops, he fell and exploded. The front line remained only 200-300 meters away." |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
I don't think the Luftwaffe had any FW 190 in this battle unless there was a SG unit there.
"Air gunners and navigators did not slack in their duty. With concentrated group fire they succeeded in setting fire to one "Messerschmitt", but its fall no one observed. The second formation of nine "Bostons" (led by Kapitan Erkin) was attacked simultaneously by two groups of Luftwaffe fighters at the moment of reforming into battle formation for the attack of the target. The first group of German fighters in the composition of 8 Bf 109 and FW 190 approached from the direction of the railroad station at Kramatorsk and attacked the bombers from below and behind. The second group of enemy aircraft of 13 Bf 109 and FW 190 approached from the direction of Kramatorsk airfield and attacked from the left from below. With the repulsing of the first attack the air gunners "smothered" with concentrated fire two German fighters, which, according to the observation of Starshina Zakhozhiy, Starshiy Serzhant Malakhov and Serzhant Egorov, fell within 3-4 km to the northwest from the Kramatorsk airfield. In the distance the group fire of the air gunners shot down one additional "Focke-Wulf". The fall of the fighter was observed by air gunners Starshina Lyapin and Starshina Glukhin. In spite of the effective defense of the Soviet bombers,for the Luftwaffe pilots it was possible to set fire almost the entire section of Leytenant Lebedev's. First caught fire the aircraft of wingman Mladshiy Leytenant Shishkov's. Embraced in flames the "Boston" it cut into the earth and then exploded in the populated area of Aleksandrovka the 3rd, 5 km to the northwest of Kramatorsk. Probably, the pilot was killed or badly wounded. The fall of Kapishnikov's aircraft was observed by Rogin's crew. Wingman Serzhant Andreev on the badly damaged aircraft with dificulty sufficed to the front line, where finally he fell behind the formation and forced landed close to the populated area of Kolodezi. With the landing the "Boston" burned. In the air battle radio operator-gunner Serzhant Eseev and air gunner Serzhant Torbeev were badly wounded, also Serzhant Andreev - is slightly wounded in the arm. The gunners were immediately directed to the troop hospital at Borovskoe, and Andreev together with the navigator of the crew Starshiy Serzhant Kusher on the 8 May returned to their regiment." |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Sorry, I'm not a good typist but will try to finish. So far he has not mentioned a flak hit.
"Last started to smoke the "Boston" of the leader Leytenant Lebedev. For the pilot it was possible to reach the front line, also, in the Kremennaya region to complete a forced landing. With the landing the aircraft was fired upon by a pair of "Messerschmitts". The "Boston" caught fire, but was extinguished by the Red Army soldiers who ran up. In the air battle was killed air gunner Serzhant Filonov, Lebedev - was wounded in the heel of the left foot, and the crew navigator Mladshiy Leytenant Chernyy received a light wound. In the prevailing situation the squadron commander Kapitan Erkin gave the command to dive, passing to low-level flight and with the remaining crews has escaped away from the enemy. Thus, the 861 BAp in this departure has found itself short of four full strength crews, one air gunner and 6 "Boston" aircraft, taken into account in the regiment and the division as combat losses." |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Rob,
Why don't you just find an alphabetic listing of all Luftwaffe aces, then take my listing (I have sent it to you several times, so I really don't get why you need to keep doing this... In fact, the second tab on my listing IS an alphabetic listing of Luftwaffe aces), type [CTRL+F], enter the name of a pilot that interests you and search for each time his name comes up on my listing. It is as easy as that... Yes, my listing does have gaps but so does everyone else's and if you find anyone who has a better one than me, put us in touch... Nick |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
HI,
i´m trying to complete the top list of my info with the claims confirmed by enemy of these: Nº PILOT COUNTRY AIRFORCE CLAIMS RELIABLE/OVERCLAIMER % ---------------------------------------------------------- 1-Erich "Bubi" Hartmann Alemania Luftwaffe 352 O (¿ % ?) 2-Gerhard Barkhorn Alemania Luftwaffe 301 R (60%-70%)? 3-Günther Rall Alemania Luftwaffe 275 R (60%-70%)? 4-Otto Kittel Alemania Luftwaffe 267 R-O? (40%-50%-60%-70%)??? 5-Walter Nowotny Alemania Luftwaffe 258 O (¿ % ?) 6-Wilhelm Batz Alemania Luftwaffe 237 O (¿ % ?) 7-Erich Rudorffer Alemania Luftwaffe 224 O (¿ % ?) 8-Heinrich Bär Alemania Luftwaffe 220 R (60%-70%)? 9-Hermann Graf Alemania Luftwaffe 212 O (¿ % ?) 10-Heinrich Ehrler Alemania Luftwaffe 208 O (¿ % ?) 11-Theodor Weissenberger Alemania Luftwaffe 208 O (¿ % ?) - ¿¿west claims-> reliable or overclaims?? 12-Hans Philipp Alemania Luftwaffe 206 O (¿ % ?) 13-Walter Schuck Alemania Luftwaffe 206 O (¿ % ?) 14-Anton Hafner Alemania Luftwaffe 204 R-O? (40%-50%-60%-70%)??? 15-Helmut Lipfert Alemania Luftwaffe 203 +R (60%-70%)? 16-Walter Krupinski Alemania Luftwaffe 197 R (60%-70%)? 17-Anton Hackl Alemania Luftwaffe 192 (+180) R (60%-70%)? 18-Joachim Brendel Alemania Luftwaffe 189 R (60%-70%)? 19-Max Stotz Alemania Luftwaffe 189 R (60%-70%)? 20-Joachim Kirschner Alemania Luftwaffe 188 R-O? (40%-50%-60%-70%)??? O-Overclaimer R-Reliable i´m very interesting in the number of claims or % of the claims confirmed by enemy, you have some info about that??.... many thanks regards |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
I am interested in your criteria for judging someone as "unreliable". Overclaiming was endemic and ran from 3:2 all the way up to 7 or 8:1 on occasion. 2:1 was very normal. Therefore anyone getting confirmed claims better than 50% is a paragon of virtue and a credit to his unit and his training.
Regards Martin |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Here are my thoughts. They are not scientific, but rather based on my years of interest and understanding of air combat. Of course many factors come into play and affect this so as stated this is only a "rule of thumb":
Caveat: Under the high speed, life & death conditions of Air-Combat few pilots approached 100% Claim Veracity. Alleged Reliable Claimers: Rule of Thumb +2/3 Accuracy Alleged Moderate Overclaimers: Rule of Thumb ~1/2 Accuracy Alleged Severe Overclaimers: Rule of Thumb -1/3 Accuracy Alleged Extreme Overclaimers: Rule of Thumb -1/4 Accuracy |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
I think more or less this:
+70-80% or more is excellent +60 % is good because the pilots have to try to survive not to look where it falls the plane ... a few days it was lowering +50 and other days up to +70 or more +50% Not good not even bad completely, but pilot lie enough in some cases -50 bad-> overclaimer, 2 planes for 5 claims , 3 of 7.... -40 very bad -> big overclaimer 2 planes for 6 claims... Because they improved the shieldings of the planes, already they are not of fabric and wood like 1WW on the other hand they also improved the weapon .... sometimes the claims only are put by the enemy as damaged or accident, but in low rate %-> 5-10-15% In other low percentage two pilots shot at the same aircraft and they think that they shoot two different planes-> 10%-5% or less (german case) (Russia- claim in group/USA and England-0.5 0.25 3/4 1/4...........) Fog, conditions of combat, you fight between a great number of planes, the enemy makes to himself the dead man ... If there are witnesses in the earth, if it falls down behind of the enemy lines..... ALWAYS ARE MANY VARIABLES. a pilot with +70% is equal to almost +90% of trustworthy, but it depends of these variables clearly... regards |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
I have to rectify this:
two pilots shot at the same aircraft and they think that they shoot two different planes-> 10%-5% or less (german case) maybe is between 5-20% in most of the squadrons in special cases like JG5 maybe between 20 and 60%!! are group kills.... i don´t know the percentage of each overclaims-group kills 12 claimed, 4 shoot down, 11-3, 13-3, 5-1.... good days 20-9, 4-4.... regards |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
I think you have identified for yourself the many factors, circumstances, misperceptions and misunderstandings that can occur in any human activity, not just the highly charged and split second world of aerial combat. I would suggest it unwise to label people as liars unless you have very specific proof that they are knowingly being false. This exists in a few cases but for most you have to give the benefit of the doubt before labelling them
Martin |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Martin - a voice of reason in this discussion!!!! Hope you have better luck than I in getting through to these guys. I still want someone to explain away the officially acknowledged 3 to 1 discrepancy of RAF claims to actual victories from the BoB or for the AVG group in China in 1941. I'm not trying to defend the LW per se, but only to point out that everybody from every side overclaimed!!! A claim is just that, a claim. It does not in any way equate to an actual loss. The fact that officialdom may have given their stamp of approval to any individual claim is not the decision of the pilot.
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
yes, is really difficult to know how many claims of a pilot corresponds to loss .......the example of JG5 does not mean that the Germans are the most
liars many aircraft were repaired and included as damaged, no total loss and sometimes you don't know if you were shot down by aa or another aircraft... too many variables... Really on the other hand some the cases were exaggerated. 15 claimed - 7 losses its good but could be better 15 claimed - 2 losses were perhaps too optimistic with its claims you know more allied pilots that could go on the list with good or bad reputation?? regards |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
For someone to be a liar they either have to know what the truth is and say something completely different or not know what the truth is but knowingly make something up to fill the gap. Either way they are knowing being false, lying, though if you repeat a lie often enough your mind can come to believe it is true. Please do not label people as liars unless you have proof.
If I and twenty of my comrads get around the escorts and attack a box of B-17s head on, I get one squarely in my sights and let fly with everything I have before split-S-ing away seconds later. I see strikes (could be mine, could be someone else behind me). When I pull out and having cleared my tail I look out and see two B-17s going down through the cloud below and one in formation billowing black smoke. More may have gone down, but I can definitely see two. Me and four others have a similar experience. When we land we are all going to make a claim aren't we? No one is lying, no one is exagerating, we are reporting what we saw and experienced. The officials look at the evidence and cannot decide between us, they find wreckage on the ground. Multiply that up to the hundreds of a/c and encounters of WW2 and you can see why the system is not perfect 65 years later someone looks at the encounter and says JG999 made an attack and claimed 5 B-17s, actually the USAAF only lost 1 and had another two badly damaged. Those guys must be liars. You cannot and must not say that There are so may factors that come into play that in the end claims have to be treated as just that - claims. The hotter and more confusing an encounter, the larger the number of a/c involved, the less experienced the pilots, the higher the number of claims there will be (on average) and the greater the potential disparity between claims and verified losses It is worthwhile reaearching the encounter and it is worthwhile looking at the different air forces and their criteria for assessing and awarding claims, however it is not worthwhile or achieveable to list all pilots in order of how reliable you think their scoring is and label them liars if they fall below some arbitrary point on the scale. Martin |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Quote:
And while I would agree with this: Quote:
Moreover, this situation (VICTORY CLAIMS resulting from HEAD ON attacks on Viermots IN FORMATION) are a small minority of overall Luftwaffe day claims (Russian front etc.). I would posit that many of the Viermots claimed as FULL victories were from attacks from quarters other than from head on or else stragglers already seperated. |
Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
To take this interesting discussion on a slightly different tack, what about "claims" that turned out to be damaged, but repairable? In the 30-60% range should this not count as a "kill" because the a/c might be out of actions for weeks or months, or even salvaged for parts. It was not listed as a "destroyed" by the losing AF, but in effect, it was.
So when evaluating claims, you have to be really careful. A pilot might claim 3 x B-17s, when only one was officially "lost". Perhaps the other two made it back to base but were either repairable or scrapped. A prime example is The famous Sweinfurt raid in October 1943. "Officially" only 60 B-17s were lost, but another 30 that returned to base were damaged requiring repairs or were scraped. Should not these also count to the claimers? In my own research on George E. Preddy, the leading P-51 ace, he was credited with 6 kills on 6-Aug-44. I set out to find the unit against which he made these claims. Four were definite, but two returned to base with damage and were likely repaired or scrapped. Does that make his claim invalid even though the 2 damaged were not listed as "lost"? I think not. If you compare a lot of reports from both sides as best you can, it becomes evident that many claims may have been damaged, but were repaired. But if an a/c is out of action for some days or weeks, should not the claim still be valid? It was not "destroyed", but it sure as hell was off the roster for some time: The same effect. |
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