Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

Interesting clip . I believe people should have the opportunity to make up their own mind about this.

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/k.../th_movie1.jpg

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

1st This forum is not a place to fight a personal feud, but I'll give you one chance.

2nd I don't know the regulations on this matter, but it should be quite simple actually. One should be relatively free to dig around, certainly on private property. If one comes across human remains, the authorities/military should be contacted and all digging stopped.

3rd In the end I find all too sensationalist for my taste. The remains got a proper burial and the family got personal possessions, perhaps there should be some room for gratitude instead of repugnance.

I have no strong opinion in the matter and don't wish to drag the forum in a flame fest.

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

Just do us all a favour and lock the damn thread please Ruy.

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

I am afraid that of late, there have been a series of posts of a similar nature from (a?) (new?) member who then stirs up a hornets nest only to disappear again; shortly after, a new member joins whose style is similar? Likewise, if you have a personal feud, please take your views and battles elsewhere as this Forum is not the place

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

At the end of the day this was a dig on an aircraft where the body had been apparently recovered and buried during the war. Maybe the MoD at the time should have made it clear in the records that most or part of the body had been recovered, rather than all, but they were too much under pressure with the war effort to spend too much time with individual cases. There have been and will be cases where recoverers will come across human remains that had supposedly been removed but the fact is that these people have in general done more to tie up loose ends than the MoD ever has, or been able to, bringing closure for many a family still grieving after their sad loss.

Historians and researchers alike have learnt much from these and similar recoveries, in many cases being able to correct major inaccuracies in the historical record, some substantially changing the perspective view of major events and shedding new light on some controversial ones. As regards purely personal items recovered I do believe that these should at least be offered to the family as World War II is still a recent event in living memory - why they weren't, or didn't seem to be, in this case is not for me to guess at although I doubt that any financial gain was involved. I can certainly empathise with the lady's view based, I suspect, on partial knowledge of the background.

My empathy stems from the fact that I had a relative who died in a Heinkel 111 crash in 1940. The aircraft crash site was dug and remnants were found including some personal bits and pieces. When I and the family found out about this some years after we were at first rather annoyed and resentful. Our mood changed when we realised that at last we had closure on a sad chapter in our family history and that at last a life had been recognised, and that others had a chance to appreciate some of that history, albeit maintaining our own anonymity. Therefore, I concur with Ruy - more gratitude than repugnance.

I believe that the main reason for selling some items recovered at crash sites is to be able to fund the recoveries themselves which can't be cheap and don't attract much if any funding from outside agencies. Some of these agencies are quite happy for others to provide the funding and the resources. I feel that these recoveries can be as vital to our understanding of Archaeology just as much as those involving mediaeval plague pits or the Valley of the Kings.

David

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

I'll be completley honest Ruy. I'm very interested in aircraft excavation and have attended a few digs, though not many. The second film "Graverobbers" gives a better understanding of this.

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

Hi 'new member' nine991,

I'm intrigued as to why you edited out most of your text at 22.50 which referred to your personal knowledge of how much money these artefacts were supposedly going for, and so on, which seemingly indicated your view of matters, and possibly knowledge of the case in the film. The sudden disappearance of your comment has debatably altered the context of the following replies!

David

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

Sir (nine991),
Might I suggest that you invest in a copy of the attached book.
It is a must read for all with a genuine interest in aircraft archaeology and the pitfalls encountered along the way.
It also explains how airmen missing since 1940 have been discovered through meticulous research thus allowing closure to grieving relatives.
Mr Saunders work over the past 30 plus years has enabled historical events such as the Battle of Britain and WW2 aviation to remain in the public's conscience. It has also contributed, in no small way, to an expanding and global demand for WW2 items. That is something that you of all people should appreciate. (If you are who I suspect you are).
You obviously have a lot to offer a community like this and I for one would welcome that, I also notice that you use forums to obtain information relating to your own collection/items, which is fair enough.
However, please stop this relentless and pointless intimidation of an individual who offers assistance and sound advice to other contributors. It is distasteful and unnecessary.
I hope that you take this post in the manner it was intended.
Gerry


<src="http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x296/gedburke3/findingcover.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

Hello David.
I altered it due to Ruy Horta's reply and another suggestion to lock the thread. Sorry I have no intention of creating hostility so thought better to edit and let people decide for themselves.

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

[quote=gedburke3;101513]Sir (nine991),
Might I suggest that you invest in a copy of the attached book.
It is a must read for all with a genuine interest in aircraft archaeology and the pitfalls encountered along the way.
It also explains how airmen missing since 1940 have been discovered through meticulous research thus allowing closure to grieving relatives.
Mr Saunders work over the past 30 plus years has enabled historical events such as the Battle of Britain and WW2 aviation to remain in the public's conscience. It has also contributed, in no small way, to an expanding and global demand for WW2 items. That is something that you of all people should appreciate. (If you are who I suspect you are).
You obviously have a lot to offer a community like this and I for one would welcome that, I also notice that you use forums to obtain information relating to your own collection/items, which is fair enough.
However, please stop this relentless and pointless intimidation of an individual who offers assistance and sound advice to other contributors. It is distasteful and unnecessary.
I hope that you take this post in the manner it was intended.
Gerry

Thankyou for your polite reply Gerry. I didn't intend to create a hostile atmosphere by posting this and I don't really have a lot offer though. I'll just keep a low profile and search the archives of this great site. Haven't heard of the book but it's on my list.

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

Can anyone tell me which squadron the excavated aircraft was with ?

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

Not if you don't post a link to the clip.

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

I mean the aircraft piloted by P/O Kosh featured in the link on page 1 of this thread

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

3 Squadron according to CWGC.

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

"2nd I don't know the regulations on this matter, but it should be quite simple actually. One should be relatively free to dig around, certainly on private property. If one comes across human remains, the authorities/military should be contacted and all digging stopped."

This is not so under UK law. The Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 basically stipulates that all military aircraft remains, whether Axis or Allied, remain the property of UK Govt. It matters not that they are on private property. There are no such regulations in force here on the Continent and people can dig what they want, when they want.

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

This post was bought up on Feb 12th 2010 & again on Feb 15 by Adam Flitter on the Air Diggers forum.
Again i post, as i posted in Air Diggers, that this was widely reported years ago and it does seem rather like a recent personal vendetta against Andy Saunders.

Re: Forgotten Hero Aircraft Digging Excavation Clip
 

Wanganui - whoever you are, I thank you for your posts both here and elsewhere.

Your perception is absolutely correct. The same poster (or one who is working with him), by the way, has already made similar posts elsewhere. I am aware that on another forum that same individual has been permanently banned and I am give to understand that the same poster has already been banned on this forum. Twice.

What we have here is a futile attempt at cyber-bullying and whilst I am a great believer in the old "sticks-and-stones" adage I am, frankly, more than a little surprised that this forum has seen fit to let this continue.

I have avoided comment here until now to avaoid the flame-war that the originator of this thread so clearly intends. However, I am afraid that the poster is clearly uninterested in how this story developed (it is over ten years ago, by the way!!) or of the outcome. That outcome saw the person who started the stories that form the basis of the video clip branded by His Honour Judge Renie as "a liar" who, the Judge said "...had lied to this court and another court." To those still interested I would suggest reading the accurate version of events written up by an independent third party in After the Battle Magazine. However, the facts would rather spoil the originators thread who would not wish for the facts to get in the way of a good story! Those facts, by the way, include substantial damages paid to me by various media outlets, published apologies and substantial costs (a £ five figure sum) paid to me by the MOD. All of the allegations were found and proven to be baseless, and the suggestions being bandied about on other forums have no basis in fact and are libelous in the extreme. Yes, I pleaded guilty to the TECHNICAL offence of having an invalid licence. The reason? The MOD had inexpliucably post-dated the licence and we carried out the recovery about ten or so days before the licence came into effect and the small print had gone un-noticed - all caused by a clerical error on the part of the MOD who had written October instead of September on the licence. But I had to carry the can for that!

I have nothing to hide here and that is not why I have kept a low profile on this matter thus far. I should also add that this is all VERY old hat. I had not intended to comment and had accepted the wise counsel of very many of my good friends here to leave it. I no longer find it possible to do so. However, I have absolutely no intention of commenting further or responding in any way to anything the originator may doubtless have to say.

I imagine, also, that we are expected to be so stupid as to believe that new-poster "partisanjager" is not either the same poster or else working in unison!