New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Hi all,

I just found a new (to me) photo of a captured karoband-Me262.

Follow this link:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_l6gtRWCxIl...0-h/Me-262.jpg

Enjoy it, Karl

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

you think the band is red and black kgj 6

Walt

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Hello,
For me too Karl, thanks very much.
Regards, Franck.

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

yes, I assume one of the KG(J)6 planes that left Saatz / Zatec on 8th of May 1945 to prevent Russian captivity for the pilot, like "Karoband" or chequerboard-band plane "yellow 5", which landed at Munich-Riem.

Karl

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

What did the small 'a' in this case represent?

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

You too??? :D.

Franck.

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Hi...

In answer to your question, if you check this website www.stormbirds.com and select the 'Me262 project' tab, and click through to page 3: Aircraft profiles - configuration data, it states that all operational wartime Me262s were suffix 'a' models, with Jumo 004 engines, and all experimental models were 'b'-suffixed, indicating BMW003 engines and therefore, the modern replicas but in the USA are following on with 'c'-suffixed machines, denoting the use of the modern J-85 jet engines used in the replicas.

An interesting site, although in my ignorance, I have no idea if the 'suffix-to-engine type' designation is accurate. I dare say someone more acquainted with the originals machine would be able to inform us.

Regards...

Paul

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Gents,

This Me 261 A-1a Jabo is "gelbe 3" of 3./KG(J) 54 and was found at a small airfield across the river from the town of Moosberg (NE of Munich on the Isar River). Other extant photos reveal that the lighter portions of the karoband were originally white. They were lightly but deliberately oversprayed with 81 Braunviolet to mute to contrast with the dark blue cheques and not compromise the aircraft's overall camouflage that was also oversprayed with denser wellen of 81. There is also evidence of the KG 54 "Totenkopfwappen" ahead of the windscreen. It too was overpainted with 81 but in this instance with a brush.

The overpainting of unit markings may well reflect the time when the remnants of Me 262 units operating in the Protectorate (KG(J) 6, KG(J) 54 and JG 7) were combined and folded into the ad hoc unit Gefechtsverband Hogeback in late April 1945.

BTW, the location is verified by correspondence received from a US veteran who took photos of the aircraft after release from Stalag VII A.

Cheers,

David

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Ahhhh, David, what source is telling you that the 81 was used to tone down the markings; other photos aside? I mean, I still retain the much vaunted Experten Decals ED-2A "Checkmate" that has since been proven otherwise.

Comments please?

Stephen

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Steve,

Well, this would be based on comparative analysis of this aircraft against other Me 262s from the unit that were similarly painted (unit-applied wellen over the factory finish). Specifically, the focus would be on those Me 262s from the same unit that were known to have been finished in 81 and 82 (via their werknummern) AND had the wellen applied over these colours. Certainly study of Luftwaffe camouflage and markings is a challenging endeavour that is acknowledged as such by those familiar with the subject. In this case, knowledge of Me 262 camouflage and markings, production practices and paint application, and the circumstances at that time, indicate that based on the balance of probabilities RLM 81 is the best match for the wellen colour.

With regards to ED-2A, we soon determined that our interpretation of the RV band colours was inconsistent with new narrative and photographic information that was unavailable to us at the time of publication (1997) though our identity of the unit was correct. This information was soon revised and included in a separate Addendum included with the book. Other than that, all other aspects of the aircraft's identity and camouflage and markings remain valid.

Cheers,

David

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

At the risk of making pejorative statements, I seriously think we need to stand back and be honest with ourselves when it comes to defining marking colors painted on German aircraft 65 years ago. In this case, how do we know the dark color of the Me 262's checkerboard was Black? Why not Dark Blue (color # 24)? I mean, if you look at contemporary photos of American aircraft, and if you didn't know better, wouldn't you think the US national aircraft insignia was actually in black and white instead of Insignia Blue (dark blue) and Insignia White? If you take a hard look at original photos of "Yellow 5", for example, you will see that the aircraft's original checkerboard pattern was incomplete when the aircraft fell into US hands. Yet, some authors/publishers with photoshop skills have, on their own, either added the "missing color" or made the checkerboard a solid single band. This is crossing the line at best. At the very least we need the ability to cross examine the witness, do we not?

Hal

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

David

Would it be possible for you to post the other pics and could you tell us where you got the info that is word of mouth or interview ect.
Karl great Pic thanks much and David the info you supplies was a great help.
Thanks again
Walt

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

David,

it is hard to recognize "Yellow 3" on this photo. Would this be the same jet "Yellow 3 + I" that came to lie on München-Riem´s scrapyard between Ju290 W.Nr.290110176 and Do335A-05?
Here I remember an additional vertical yellow bar for III.Gruppe and the camo fog over the chequers obviously weathered away. But I remember the blue-white "Karo" pattern much larger?
This Me 262 seems to have some history with overpainted B3-Geschwader code and overpainted oblique Gruppen stripes at the fuselage sides.

Personally i´m not quite convinced both jets being the same.

Regards

Roland

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Hi Hal,

Perhaps it would be useful to start from the beginning when these markings were first noticed in photos of Me 262s.

Initially, it was thought that they defined aircraft operating with Industrie Selbstschutzschwarme (ISS – Industry Self-Defense Unit) units. This was based on several lost listings of Me 262s associated with ISS 1 and 2. However, as these were ad hoc and temporary units, it is thought highly unlikely that they wore any distinctive markings. The green and blue tail band on the Me 262 that graces the cover of Monogram’s “Jet Planes of the Third Reich” is based on an interpretation using available information over 30 years ago. Standing in front of the original painting in Tom Hitchcock’s study, he told me that he and Richard Smith made a guess as to what kind of unit would have such a unique fuselage band style. That’s it, a guess. This was also confirmed to me by Richard.

The colour combination was an interpretation comparing the various grey tones with known maintenance colours and they arrived at a blue and green combination. Years later, Jim Crow sent me photos of the aircraft in question – Yellow 5, WNr.501232. In some images the chequer tail band (karoband) was visible, in others it appeared as a black band. Obviously, some of the photos were using orthochromatic film such that reds appear as black. Indeed, where the two band colours could be seen, the grey tones for red and the light green are very similar. The darker colour could either be only dark blue or black, two similar shades of grey. The contrast with the latter colour would make the most sense and this was confirmed via other sources – see below.

I should note that in some cases the image showing Yellow 5 with a black band has been Photo-shopped where the lighter cheques are shown but there is no acknowledgement in the captions that this digital revisions has taken place - hence confusion with this aircraft and its markings.

Bottom line is that the karoband – Industrie Selbstschutzschwarme relationship was an educated guess over thirty years ago. More data has been discovered to identify the true identity of the units wearing these bands.

Since there was not documentary of other data that linked these karobands to the Industrie Selbstschutzschwarme units, focus shifted to the possibility that they might be related to those of the Kampfgeschwader (Jagd) units. Over the past years, numerous photos have surfaced (several in colour) that have confirmed the colour of two of the bands (green/white and red/black) and unit affiliations. In my research, I have photographic documentation for over 20 individual aircraft wearing these bands, both published and unpublished:


In addition, I have documented three (3) styles of such markings, again via photographs:

• III./KG(J) 6: two band styles – large (Bf 109), small (Me 262)
• I./KG(J) 27: one band style – large (Bf 109 & Fw 190)
• I./KG(J) 54: three band styles – large (Bf 109), medium and small (Me 262)
• III./KG(J) 54: two band styles – large and medium (Me 262)

The following colour combinations and unit affiliations are believed to be as follows:

• KG(J) 6 – red / black
• KG(J) 27 – green / white
• KG(J) 54 – blue / white

In our Experten Decals book (ED-2A, 1997), Dave Wadman and I were the first to prove conclusively that the karobands were linked to the Kampfgeschwader (Jagd) units. This was based on photos of an Me 262 A-1a “Yellow 3+I” that revealed it wearing a large style blue and white (we originally interpreted as green / white) and most importantly, the famous KG 54 “Totenkopf” Geschwaderwappen. Since then, photographs of several other similarly marked aircraft from KG)J) 54 have been discovered that confirms this interpretation.

While no official documentary evidence has so far turned up, narratives from pilots and other unit members have provided additional information. This relates to descriptions of the KG(J) 6 and 54 aircraft having red and black and blue and white tail markings that first appeared in an article by Jan Horn on KG(J) 6. The pieces were falling into place and confirmed that red and black were the colours for KG(J) 6 and blue and white for KG(J) 54 respectively. Recent photographic and crash report documents published by Jerry Crandall (Proulx, 2005) has linked an Fw 190 A-9 with KG(J) 27. The colour photo of the Bf 109 G-10 at Kaufbeuren ("Yellow 2") shows it wearing a green / white band. Based on a process of elimination, these would have to be the colours assigned to this unit. Other KG(J) units were designated by the Luftwaffe to convert to the Me 262: KG(J) 30 and KG(J) 55. However, they were either given new responsibilities (Mistel program, KG(J) 30), or were disbanded (KG(J) 55). These events happened prior to or soon after any orders to apply chequer tail bands, hence, they would not exist.

But when did these markings first appear, and why?

Based on information contained in personal correspondence, publications and articles by S. Radtke, M. Boehme and J. Horn, it appears that the various KG(J) units adopted the fighter-style tactical markings sometime during the March 15 - March 22, 1945 period, with the markings themselves being applied during this time or a little later. Radtke infers that for I./KG(J) 54 this took place sometime between March 22-26.

It is important to recall that since mid-1944 several units on the Western Front had been wearing colourful tailbands for recognition purposes, with the first use of such markings by Strurmstaffel 1 (JG 1) appearing in October / November 1943. It was not until late February 1945 that the Luftwaffe got around to formalized the unit, colour(s) and pattern designations for the Jagdwaffe. It is known that several of the units never wore their assigned Reichsverteidigung bands. The order stated the reasons for these markings:

By the order of the Reichsmarschall and for purposes of improving aerial recognition, Jagdgeschwader aircraft are to be marked by fuselage-encircling colored stripes as indicated in the appended enclosure. Attention of troops down to platoon level is to be drawn to these markings which should simplify the recognition and distinction of our own aircraft.


I believe that Generalmajor Dietrich Peltz, commander of the Kampfflieger, believed that similar markings would be needed for the aircraft of the IX. Fliegerkorps under his command, especially since his Me 262 units were now operating as fighters. Since most of the available colour combinations had been used, it would make sense to use a different pattern given the limited colours available. Hence, the use of chequers as opposed to vertical bands. It is interesting to note that the colours selected for the KG(J) unit’s bands shared the same dominant colour used by fighter units that had the same numerical designations which surely cannot have been a coincidence:

• Red – JG 6 & KG(J) 6
• Green – JG 27 & KG(J) 27
• Blue – JG 54 & KG(J) 54

With the exception of III./KG(J) 54, all Me 262s from III./KG(J) 6 and I./KG(J) 54 reveal identical RV band and number styles. Photos of Bf 109s of these units indicate that both wore the same colour bands but in different styles, the larger cheques probably created to better suit visibility on the narrow tapering fuselage of the Bf 109. KG(J) 27’s aircraft would be expected to follow this pattern and do.

So, with regards to the subject aircraft, it wore a blue and white chequer tailband associated with KG 54. Its Totenkopfwappen was painted out on the nosewhose outline matches that for the style used by the I. Gruppe. I attach, as requested by Walter and Roland, another published image of this aircraft. It certainly is NOT the same aircraft found at München-Riem as it is from the units III. Gruppe whereas the Moosburg aircraft is from its I. Gruppe.

Attachment 4283

That’s about all I can add to this discussion. More information and photos will be available upon the publication of a two-part series on Me 262 units operating in the Protectorate by JaPo that I am co-authoring.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

David

References

Boehme, M., 1992. JG 7 - The World’s First Jet Fighter Unit 1944/1945. Schiffer Publishing Ltd., Altglen, Pennsylvania, 230p.

Proulx, M., 2005. Wings of the Black Cross – Volume 3. Eagle Editions, Hamilton, 36p.

Horn, J, 1996. Als die Kampfflieger noch Jäger werder Solten – Das Ende des KG(J) 6 im Raum Prag. Jägerblatt – Officielles Organ der Gemeinschaft der Jagdflieger E.V., Vol.XLV, Nr.1, Köln, p.38-43.

Radtke, S., 1990. Kampfgeschwader 54 - Von der Ju 52 zur Me 262 - Eine Chronik nach Kreigstagebüchern, Berichten und Documenten. Schild Verlag, München, 383p.

Smith, J. R., and Creek, E., J., 1982. Jet Planes of the Third Reich. Monogram Aviation Publications, Boylston, Massachusetts, 400p.

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Thanks David for this very informative post, I am looking forward to your book and the new research and material it will reveal.

I will leave it to others to speculate about the colors of this particular plane, though, but for me one question remains - Maybe I am totally blind or the contrast levels of my screen are gone somewhere over the rainbow, but WHERE is the numeral "3" on this plane?? I don't even have the slightest idea, even after prolonged staring...

Cheers,
Christian

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Hi Christian,

Thanks for the kind words.

Take a look about halfway between the fuselage balkenkreuz and the rear of the cockpit - the '3' is outlined in black.

David

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

yes indeed, nicely written and argued David....

(..a very small point, but Sturmstaffel 1 wore fuselage tail bands from October/November 1943 predating the mid-1944 order..)

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Falke,

I appreciate the reminder and have adjusted my post accordingly.

Many thanks,

David

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

David - I believe you but I can´t see it :(

Thanks for this comprehensive summary on "Karobänder". Most interesting is your involvement in the upcoming JaPo publication and your info that it is projected as a two-volume treatise.

With such a lot of contents - am I right it will contain the ending of Gefechtsverband Hogeback on the airfields of Fassberg, München-Riem and Brunnthal?

Regards

Roland

P.S.: Looking (staring) long enough at the first photograph a black-lined "13" shows up. Should I go to the doctor´s?

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

David,

You have certainly been playing in the checkerboard sandbox far longer than me, and probably longer than most readers of this thread. So all of us owe you a huge debt of gratitude for your thoughful and comprehensive presentation.

So red and black it is for 501232! You rest your case! Just for the record, for me the clincher was found on the port side of this Me 262. In the photo with Watson and a German officer, if you look closely at the band's leading edge, just to the officer's left elbow at the location of the black vertical lifting arrow, you will see unmistakable evidence of a second checkerboard color. And the fact its tonal brightness is virtually identical to the adjacent camouflage paint further reinforces your conclusion for the color Red!

Now, if you can ferret out the werk nummer for Yellow 3, that would indeed be masterful!

Hal

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Hi Hal,

Thanks for the comments. I should note that my good friend Philippe de Meldeur in Belgium has studied these markings for about as long as I have. I highly value his comments and insights that he has shared with me over the years and has challenged me on my interpretations. I guess he now owes me one of those great Belgium beers he tells me about!

Yes, the difference between the lighter colour of the tailband and the lighter camouflage colour is very subtle but with a good quality print one can see the difference. Tom and Richard thought that the shade was best matched with Hellgrün 25, whilst the darker squares Bau 24. Rot 23 is also a very good match and with new information that was subsequently revealed, we now know that band was red and black.

By the way, the officer standing with Col. Watson is none other than Lt. Heinrich Haeffner, the pilot of "Yellow 5" though serving with 2./KG 51. I was able to match his features in this photo and those taken of him that were part of a collection that included his diary, military documents, etc. as well as other photos taken of him with KG 51 pilots.

I believe that the photo you refer to was taken around noon on May 9th while Col. Watson was at München-Riem looking for aircraft to return to the U.S. He arrived there on the morning of the 8th and witnessed the arrival of the Ju 290, and possibly "Yellow 5" and "Black X" later in the day, and if memory serves was back at Lechfeld later on the 9th.

Regarding "Yellow 3's" identity (the Moosburg kite), based on its original camouflage and national markings style (and rear rudder light), as well as some documents, I think that I know its werknummer should be. Time will tell . . .

Cheers,

David

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Hi Roland,

Yes, it will detail the end of the so-called "Gefechtsverband Hogeback" and the adventures of the various pilots and their aircraft on May 8th.

I too originally saw a "13" in other unpublished images of the port side, but now think that the "1" appears to be a fuel stain, or, maybe an overpained "1" though this is not observed on the starboard side images. Certainly its original code - "B3+?H/K/L" - was covered up when it and the unit's other aircraft were assigned numeric 'fighter' codes. When I get home this evening (I am hanging around at work catching up on some things) I'll see if I can highlight the '3' on a photo and post here.

As previously announced, the JaPo series will start off with the KG and KG(J) units (Part 1), with Part 2 later detailing the JG and other units operating in the Protectorate. Part 1's artwork and aircraft descriptions have been completed and historical segment's text is now sitting on my desk for editing. Hopefully Tomas and Ales will have it in press later this year. I thus recommend visiting the JaPo website from time to time to follow the progress of this interesting project as well as others. http://www.japo.eu/news.php

Cheers,

David

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Thanks David, for your comments. That beer is still cold and awaits your visit;) Please do not forget that you are still my master in Luftwaffe related items!

Concerning Karobands: yes it has been a long time since something new happens, beside the two new Bf 109 KG(J) 6 planes showed in pictures in the latest (vol.2) Fw 190 D-9 book of Jerry Crandal.

I have to verify at home if the picture showed is not the same which was showed some years ago on some website, format as great as a stamp.

Of course I have to complete my matrix with this one!

I do not have my files here, but somehow I feel that KG(J) 6 is the most representative gruppe showing us pictures of karobands with Me 262 (IIRC 4 now) and Bf 109 (must be 4 now)

For me, the most interesting however is the colorpîcture of a Bf 109 in Kaufbeuren scrap pile showing (again if my memory serves well, I'm at work!) KG (J) 54 large blue white checkers.

I know how I will pass this evening.... ;)

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

David,

It's been over a decade since we last communicated, but in doing some research on an Me262 pic I was just shown by a friend, I stumbled across this thread and had to comment. I just was shown (and have a digital copy) a nearly identical photo to the one you posted. Same aircraft. Looking at the painted over side number, I'm fairly certain it is 13, not 3.

Drop me an email at cobrahistorian@yahoo.com and we can talk more!

v/r

Jon Bernstein

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Not sure if this adds anything to your discussion, an image from Wolfgang Samuel 'Watson's Whizzers'.

Col. Watson standing with Hauptmann Herman Kersting at Lechfeld next to an Me262 in early May 1945.

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Hi Tony,

Thanks for sharing this with us. If you scroll up to post #22, you will see that I provide more information on this photo and the associated aircraft and individuals.

Cheers,

David

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Gentlemen,

I have just obtained a copy of Gotterdammerung: Luftwaffe Wrecks and Relics, Number 1 (2006). On page 85 is a photograph (and rear fuselage profile by Tom Tullis) of the starboard side of the Me 262 A-1a "Yellow 3" of KG(J) 54 "photographed on a scrapyard at Munchen-Riem in Germany during late 1945 or 1946."

I would like to point out that each side of the Karoband on the port side of the aircraft on post #1 of this thread has four 'chequers', and that the Karoband itself is situated in front of the leading edge of the tail fin. However, each side of the Karoband in the starboard view of the aircraft found in the Munchen-Riem dump has two 'chequers' and the Karoband is behind the leading edge of the tail fin.

I have never heard of such asymmetrical markings. Like Roland I am not convinced this is the same aircraft. Could the aircraft in post #1 be the one Dan O'Connell mentioned in post #5?

Best regards,

Jim Geens

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Hi Jim,

No, you are not confused. These are two different aircraft but similarly coded and were from different Gruppen and found in different locatios, i.e. "Yellow 3 +" (München-Riem) and "Yellow 3 + I" (Moosburg).

Dan’s post (#5) does indeed refer to the photo in post #1, but was based on what Jim Crow had written on the back of another photo of the machine based on the vet’s recollections. Jim did not believe this was the correct location but the original caption stuck.

This “Yellow 3’ was found near Moosburg and was a I. Gruppe machine wearing the small style KG(J) blue/white karoband with its white portions partially overpainted. The dark and medium shades of the squares suggested to some that they were black and red respectively, and hence representing a KG(J) 6 aircraft. Its unit wappen was overpainted as well and the style points to the I. Gruppe as well. Based on my study, this aircraft comes from the late 1105xx to early 1106xx werknummner series. Jim’s photo appears in my post #15,

The “Yellow 3” machine found at München-Riem was a III. Gruppe aircraft as evidenced by the vertical bar aft of the balkenkreuz. Its karoband was blue and white and was the large four panel size typical of all aircraft from this unit. As well, its unit wappen clearly shows that it was a KG(J) 54 aircraft, and its style diagnostic for this unit. As well, these is a painted out diagonal line from the windscreen to the wing training edge on the fuselage side. Though overpained, this latter marking is seen on III. Gruppe Me 262s over the late 1944-early 1945 period, and then disappear. Interestingly, this marking can be traced back to the Battle of Britain in 1940, with KG 2 and KG 76 having a similar marking on their aircraft:

• KG 2 = Diagonal encircling nose band ahead of the cockpit
• KG 54 = Diagonal fuselage band behind the wing trailing edge
• KG 76 = Vertical fuselage band behind the wing trailing edge

Jim, take a look at what I have written about these units’ markings in post #1 as there is a lot more information therein. In addition, a great deal of information on the aircraft from the KG(J) units is presented in a book I co-authored with colleagues from JaPo:

David E. Brown, Aleš Janda & Tomáš Poruba & Jan Vladař, 2012
Messerschmitt Me 262s of KG & KG(J) Units – Luftwaffe over Czech Territory 1945 - Volume III.
JaPo Publishing, Prague, 180 p.

Cheers,

David

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Hi David,

Thank you so much for clearing this up and giving the background to the confusion. Unfortunately I do not have your book and it is not available on Amazon or Chapters-Indigo. How can I obtain a copy from Canada?

Jim

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

It is nice to see that the discussion continues on this fascinating subject.

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Hi David,

http://modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f...80971&start=60

5th and 6th (far right aircraft) pictures

http://modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f...80971&start=90

3rd and 4th pictures

I see what you mean about the I Gruppe of KG(J) 54 using smaller chequers similar to those of WNr. 501232 of KG(J) 6.

Jim

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Hi Karoband,


Thank you, very much. Especially for the first ever, for me, photo of an Me-262 and Me-262 Mistel.




Best,
Ed

Re: New picture of a Me262 "mistel" = a model
 

Hallo,
To my mind, the photo of a 262 "mistel" is a photo of a model.
Regards.
RB

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Hi Ed,

You are welcome. But like Remi, the photo of the "Mistel" seems too perfect to me.

Jim

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

It's nicely done, but as you can see, one of the wheels isn't touching ground... I guess they would do that with that weight on.

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Well known photo of a model ! :)

Re: New picture of a Me262 with Karoband
 

Sorry, I've been absent for a while. I concur after searching a few Me 262 Mistel models that it is most probably a kit photographed quite well.
The model website is a great source of photographic material.

Thank you all.....

Vince...