D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

Hi,
I'm interesting which Luftwaffe Ju 87 unit (training unit as I suppose) participated in D-Day combats vs USAAF Mustangs. It is possible to find details of Luftwaffe losses?

USAAF Ju 87 claims for 6th June 1944:
Orleans Aera, 505th FS/339. FG: three Ju 87 shot down.
Chartres Aera, around 21:15, HQ and 354th/355. FG against 15-plane Ju 87 formation: three Ju 87 shot down and one damaged + two destroyed on ground (after landing).
Janville Aera, around the same time, 357. FS/355. FG against low flying "V formation of three-plane Vics going westward": six Ju 87 shot down, one probably and five damaged + one destroyed on ground after landing. One P-51 shot down by Flak.

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

As far as I know Einsatzstaffel I./SG 103 took part in Dog Fight on June 6 1944 in area Voves. 4 Ju 87s shot down, 5 more damaged, 3 crew KIA, 11 WIA and 2 MIA.

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

Thanks for this information.
There is only about 40 kilometers between Janville and Chartres, Voves is located between them. Also Orlean is not far away. So, probably all USAAF claims are against the same Ju 87 unit.

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

I'll have to check that, but if I'm not mistaken the Ju-87s used by SG103 on D-Day were old versions normally used for training. They even included at least one Ju-87A and two Ju-87Cs.

I'll look for the details and tell you what I have.

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

Hi
From an old 2005 thread on the excellent LEMB .....

'These Ju-87 are the II./SG103 (Pilotage School based at METZ-FRESCATY. Combat near Chartres on 06 June 1944 at 21H00.'

'The 354FS and 357FS combined with two pilots from 339th who tacked on to 355th, shot down (claimed) 15-2-5 between Janville and Chartres. The fight started about 2105 for the 354FS and 2058 for the 357FS.'


' The Ju87's were intercepted above Chartres, 5 planes destroyed and 4 damaged.

Among the destroyed Stukas : one Ju87A (model of the Spanish civil war) and two Ju87C (aircraft carrier version).

Among the damaged planes : one Ju87H and the Ju87V3 (pilot Lt Max Skupin) ! '


off interest two days later.

Osprey Aviation Elite Units 13 - Luftwaffe Schlachtgruppen - John Weal,

mentions 08 june 44 , SG101 having to send 12 ju-87's to a forward landing ground in normandy, apparently only one made it, ( presumably 11 crashed/shot down ? )


Cheers
Jerry

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

There were no Ju 87 credits for 8th AF on June 8 - only the June 6 scores between Janville and Chartres were cerdited.

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

Hi
Then presumably there were claims by RAF units,
or a misprint ? ( of both date and unit ) in the book.
cheers
Jerry

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

I do not find any RAF (RCAF, etc) claims for Ju-87s on June 6, 7, or 8.

Frank.

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

My reaction is a misprint. Stuka's really had no chance to survive with the airpower coverage and D-Day losses would have emphasized that point.

Like Frank I have found no RAF encounters with Ju 87s during the Normandy campaign.

Regards,

Bill

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

Hallo, I have this short list of Ju 87 losses:

44.06.06 SG 103 /Einsatz. St. Voves Absturz infolge Bordwaffenbesch.
Ju 87 1247 100 -/-/1 -/-/1
44.06.06 SG 103 /Einsatz. St.Voves Absturz infolge Bordwaffenbesch.
Ju 87 A3 2653 100 -/1/- -/1/-
44.06.06 SG 103 /Einsatz. St.Voves Absturz infolge Bordwaffenbesch.
Ju 87 B6 2196 100 -/1/- -/-/-
44.06.06 SG 103 /Einsatz. St.Voves Absturz infolge Bordwaffenbesch.
Ju 87 C 1214 100 1/-/--/1/-
44.06.06 SG 103 /Einsatz. St.Voves Absturz infolge Bordwaffenbesch.
Ju 87 C3 1289 80 -/1/--/1/-
44.06.06 SG 103 /Einsatz. St.Voves Notlandung infolge Bordwaffenbesch.
Ju 87 C4 1194 60 -/1/-
44.06.06 SG 103 /Einsatz. St.Voves Notlandung infolge Bordwaffenbesch.
Ju 87 C4 2094 60 -/1/--/1/-
44.06.06 SG 103 /Einsatz. St.Voves Notlandung infolge Bordwaffenbesch.
Ju 87 H6 folgt 40 -/1/-
44.06.06 SG 103 /Einsatz. St.Voves Notlandung infolge Bordwaffenbesch.
Ju 87 V3 7868 65 1(1)---/1/-

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

If "St. Voves" is the place south east of Troyes or the one south east of Chartres, either is a long way from the Normandy battlefront.

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

Guys

I am puzzled by certain things regarding these losses.

WNr 7868 is not the V3. As far as I know this was WNr 4923 D-UKYQ.
(In this context I would also be interested in why Griel in his Ju 87 book says the V3 was D-UKYQ on page 40 and D-IBXF on page 43)

What are all those C versions listed as lost? The C was a a proposed carrier based folding wing version and as far as I can tell from published sources only a few were built (or converted) but the main production was cancelled as was Germany's carrier. So what are they?

Cheers
Stig

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

Thanks for the list baraks!

Also 2653 seems to be D-3, there wasn't A-3 version.

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

Hi,
Awesome, thanks for posting the details baraks.

This is the first time I have seen anyone post any Wn, details, etc, for these losses.


Cheers
Jerry

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

Brewerjerry and Gizmo,
I remember a French site who had even the crew names ( Absa 39-45 ), BUT allas, they are not allowing searches on their files anymore. I found the site, but did not managed to search the Ju 87 losses I remember being covered during the Normandy Campaign. Maybe another member can guide us to the correct site?
I saved this information, but can not find it anymore...do not know if on the other computer back at my old home...will have to find out those losses, meanwhile someone can guide us to the search part of Absa site!
Yours
Adriano

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

Hi
I remember the site well, it helped me sort out some research I was doing a few years back, sad if it is no longer available.

http://www.absa39-45.asso.fr/formula...laire_date.htm

even 'wayback internet machine' can't do anything
cheers
Jerry

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

There were no 354/357FS Mustangs lost, I'm still looking for 339th possibility.

My father flew his first mission and shot down his first aircraft (Ju 87) in this fight.

354 Fortier, Norman Lt WR-N 42-103802 44-06-06 1 air Ju87 Chartres
354 Graham, Clarence 2Lt WR-M 42-106437 44-06-06 1 gnd Ju87 Janville
354 Marshall, Bert Jr Cpt WR-Z 42-106448 44-06-06 1 air Ju87 Chartres
354 Morris, Raymond Lt WR-M 42-106437 44-06-06 0.5 air Ju87 Chartres shared w/F.Taylor
354Taylor, Floyd 2Lt WR-L 42-106896 44-06-06 0.5 air Ju87 Chartres-Dire shared w/Morris
357 Bernoske, Robert Lt OS-N 43-24795 44-06-06 1 air Ju87 Janville
357 Cotter, John Lt OS-G 43-7027 44-06-06 1 air Ju87 Janville
357 Fuller, Leonard Lt OS-E 43-6886 44-06-06 1-1-1 air Ju87Janville
357 James, Wayne 2Lt OS-? 43-???? 44-06-06 1-0-2 air 1 gnd Ju87Janville
357 Kelley, Fred Cpt OS-D 43-???? 44-06-06 2 air Ju87Janville
357 Minchew, Les Cpt OS-O 42-106815 44-06-06 0-0-1 air Ju87Janville
357 Wilson, John Cpt OS-W 43-7101 44-06-06 0-0-1 air Ju87NE Janville
355H Dix, Gerald LtC YF-D 43-7164 44-06-06 0-0-1 air 1 gnd Ju87Chartres

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

drgondog,
My source for P-51 lost is "D-Day - The Air battle" by K. Delive. See page 124: [Ju 87s]" "Flying in V formation of three-plane Vics, and going westward toward the beach-head and flying on the deck. The formation was bounced, with claims listed bellow. Lt. Douglas was hit by Flak near Calais coming out and missing in action"
Also "Fighter Units and Pilots of the 8th USAAF" by K. D. Miller listing Lt. Walter A. Douglas (357th FS) as a POW, P-51B 42-106862, hit by Flak over Calais and bailed out off the coast. So probably Douglas was shot down by Flak after combat with Ju 87 formation.

BTW -This error on french website linked above, looks like to be result of attack by unfriendly software.

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

357FS
Phillips,Lt.George KIA Shot down by flak near La Mailleraye ~1325. Killed bailing out - hitting rudder.
OSH 43-6640 MACR 5506 FLAK Whitten Letter 357FS History

Douglass,Lt.Walter POW Lost,let down through cloud cover,hit by flak E Calais at approximately 2130.
OSB 42-106862 MACR 5513 FLAK Whitten Letter 357FS History



I was only taking exception to the comment of a loss (implied but not stated) due to the fight w/Ju 87's

Douglass was on the way home from the fight and letting down through the cloud cover to get his bearings. He was shot down by flak about 20 minutes after the fight was over.

My source is "Our Might Always - Volume I, History of the 355th FG, 355th TFW and FW" by Bill Marshall

It is a greatly expanded and researched history of the 355th that I did 25 years ago - and the primary source of Kent Miller's 355th data..

Regards,

Bill

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

OK, all clear.
Thanks

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

Hi all,
I´m sorry I only quoted original RL 2 III / 779 Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und sonstige Verbänden (01.05.44-15.07.44) with original Stuka version.
Gismo, if you need crewmember names, write me privat message.

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

As reported-

Ju 87C-3, 1289, Uhlhaas, Ofw. (F)/Gottschalk, Ofw. (Bf), , Einsatz.St., SG 103, , , , , 06-Jun-44, Both WIA due to enemy fire. Crashed., , Lfl.3, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/779, p.105, , Voves, 80%, F, , ,
Ju 87C, 1214, Rüchenschütte, Uffz. (F)/Schröder, Ogefr. (Bf), , Einsatz.St., SG 103, , , , , 06-Jun-44, KIA due to enemy fire. Bf WIA. Crashed., , Lfl.3, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/779, p.105, , Voves, 100%, F, , ,
Ju 87C-4, 1194, Kather, Ofw. (Bf), , Einsatz.St., SG 103, , , , , 06-Jun-44, WIA due to enemy fire. Notlandung., , Lfl.3, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/779, p.105, , Voves, 60%, F, , ,
Ju 87B-6, 2196, Rachau, Ofw. (F)/Micke, Ofw. (Bf), , Einsatz.St., SG 103, , , , , 06-Jun-44, WIA due to enemy fire. Bf KIA. Crashed., , Lfl.3, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/779, p.105, , Voves, 100%, F, , ,
Ju 87V-3, 7868, Skupin, Oblt. (F)/John, Ofw. (Bf), , Einsatz.St., SG 103, , , , , 06-Jun-44, KIA due to enemy fire. Bf WIA. Notlandung., , Lfl.3, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/779, p.105, , Voves, 65%, F, , ,
Ju 87H-6, , Marschering, Ofw. (Bf), , Einsatz.St., SG 103, , , , , 06-Jun-44, WIA due to enemy fire. Notlandung., , Lfl.3, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/779, p.105, , Voves, 40%, F, , ,
Ju 87C-4, 2094, Wirner, Ofw. (F)/Steyer, Uffz. (Bf), , Einsatz.St., SG 103, , , , , 06-Jun-44, Both WIA due to enemy fire. Notlandung., , Lfl.3, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/779, p.105, , Voves, 60%, F, , ,
Ju 87A-3, 2653, Klunth, Ofw. (F)/Rumpler, Ofw. (Bf), , Einsatz.St., SG 103, , , , , 06-Jun-44, Both WIA due to enemy fire. Crashed., , Lfl.3, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/779, p.105, , Voves, 100%, F, , ,
Ju 87, 1247, Genrich, Ofw. (F)/Ochmanik, Ofw. (Bf), , Einsatz.St., SG 103, , , , , 06-Jun-44, Both MIA due to enemy fire., , Lfl.3, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/779, p.105, , Voves, 100%, F, , ,
Ju 87, 5621, Rauh, Gefr. Gerhard, , II., SG 102, , , , , 06-Jun-44, Killed in crash due to pilot error., , Lfl.Reich, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/779, p.90, , bei Deutschbrod, 90%, H, , ,

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

Hi
Thanks for posting the info.
cheers
Jerry

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

sorry to quick on the keyboard

regards

Peter van Gogh

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

This last crash didn't happen in Western Europe, but rather in the Protektorat, in Central Europe.

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

You are correct - just did a batch post from my db based on date.

Re: D-Day Ju 87 massacre
 

An old thread but I came across this as I am currently researching Obfw. Ernst Kather DKiG.
I have Herr Kather's Leistungsbücher, his last Feindflug (No. 381) was on 6.6.1944 as a member of II/S.G. 103. From the info posted by "thenelm" I see he was attached to the Einsatz Staffel.
Interstingly he took off from Metz-Frescaty at 19:30 on that evening and he reports seeing in excess of 30 Mustangs and after about 5 minutes of combat at 21:00 was shot down over Auneau en Eure-et-Loir.

Does anyone know who the pilot was on this day?

Of course the Leistungsbuch, unlike the Flugbuch does not record the pilot or any ID marks of the aircraft.

Throughout the war, well from the first combat mission on 1.9.1939 at 04:26 until 16.10.1943 he flew as the Bordfunker Bruno Dilley EL. October 1943 was when Herr Dilley took over command of S.G. 103.

So, was Bruno Dilley the pilot of this Ju87 on this day?

Thanks for your assistance.
Ian