Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Hi all,

in Osprey P-40 Warhawk Aces of the MTO (Aircraft Of The Aces number 43) at the page 30-31 is info about shot down of 8 Ju 88s near the Thelepte airfield.
Maj Mark E. Hubbard 2 destroyed
2nd Lt. Carl E. Beggs 1 destroyed
Capt. Boone 4 destroyed
2nd Lt. Rober H. Smith 1 destroyed

My question is, from which unit were this Ju 88 ? Have you some other info (name of crew, W.Nrs, codes) , some www links or info in some book.

Thanks for all reply

Faenor

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Hi,
As I know nine Ju 88s were shot down:
Six (3Z+EH, 3Z+IL, 3Z+AH, 3Z+NH, 3Z+MH and 3Z+FL) from I./KG 77
two (and one damaged) from II/KG 76
one from I/KG 76

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Thanks Gizmo for reply - all Ju 88s from I./KG 77 looks like from this combat with P-40 from 59th FS/33rd FG .

Have anybody some other info about this losses ? W.Nrs and name of crews ? and info about other losses from Gizmo reply ?

Faenor

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

9 Planes start for action , after bombs release they were bounced by P40, 6 possibly 7 were shot down

Remi

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

They started from Gerbini at 13h00, "accident" occured at 16h00 , british time

Remi

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Hi all,

is this photo one of this Ju 88 ? Pilots are from 33rd FG and date of photo is January 1943 :

http://www.ww2incolor.com/rating/3.5?g2_itemId=8882

Remi,

thanks for the time .
Any info about this incident is welcome.

Faenor

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Quite possible the one under 2 men made prisoners


1 KG77 F Thelepte ostw, TUN,/Telepte / A FJ P40 n, bombenabw, JU88A-4 140052 3Z+AH

but ...

Remi

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

The KG 76 losses for this date appear to be training losses in southern France. The KIRSCH loss '3Z+FL' doesn't seem to be in the Gen.Qu. Losses. Anyone have the code for the BETHKE loss?

15-Jan-43, , Ju 88A-14, 144193, Hanauer, Uffz. Rudolf, , KG 26, 9., gelbe F, 1T+FT, , , MIA with crew, cause unknown., B Uffz. Kurt Forsche, Bf Ogefr. Kurt Kaulbach & Bs Gefr. Günter Ditthardt, WNr. reported as 4193., Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13; Schmidt, Achtung-Torpedos Los!, p.363, , (Mittelmeer), 100%, F
15-Jan-43, , Ju 88A-4, 140485, Stitz, Uffz. Friedrich, , KG 30, III., , DM+MC, DM+MC, , KIA, probably due to Luftkampf with enemy fighters. B also KIA, rest MIA., B Uffz. Siegfried Konstedt, Bf Uffz. Herbert Leidolph & Bs Uffz. Hans Stöckler, , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13, , (bei Algier), 100%, F
15-Jan-43, , Ju 88A-4, 140396, Labusch, Ofw. Paul, , KG 54, 4., weiße I, B3+JM, , , POW, cause unknown. B & Bs also POW, Bf KIA. Sortie to Fl.Pl. Tamet., B Uffz. Rudolf Fehl, Bf Fw. Hans-Jürgen Schlichting & Bs Uffz. Horst Stumpenhagen, 'B3+IM', B Hohl per loss., Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13; Radtke, KG 54, p.307, 359, , (Tamet-West), 100%, F
15-Jan-43, , Ju 88A-4, 140421, Blech, Uffz. Horst, , KG 54, 5., , B3+HN, , , POW, cause unknown. B & Bf also POW, Bs KIA. Sortie to Fl.Pl. Tamet., B Uffz. Werner Baumgart, Bf Uffz. Friedrich Gröger & Bs Ogefr. Viktor Lämmersdorf, Bf Kröger & Bs Lommersdorf per loss., Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13; Radtke, KG 54, p.307, 359, , (Tamet-West), 100%, F
15-Jan-43, , Ju 88A-4, 142328, n.n., , KG 54, II., , , , , Damaged, cause not reported. B, Bf & Bs all WIA., B Ogefr. Paul Schröder, Bf Ogefr. Kurt Acker & Bs Uffz. Günter Niermann, , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13; Radtke, KG 54, p.307, 359, , bei Bir Dufan, 80%, F
15-Jan-43, , Ju 88A-4, 142323, Korner, Ltn., , KG 60, 2., , P1+LK, , , MIA, cause unknown. Bf & Bs also MIA, B KIA., B Gefr. Forster, Bf Uffz. Reichel & Bs Gefr. Wochele, WNr. 2323 'PL+LK' per loss., Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13, , Ort unbekannt, 100%, F
15-Jan-43, , Ju 88A-4, 142333, Thiedke, Uffz. Johann, , KG 77, 1., weiße M, 3Z+MH, , , MIA with crew due to Luftkampf with enemy fighters., B Uffz. Otto Ziehr, Bf Uffz. Walter Juwig & Bs Ofw. Kurt Scheffel, , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13, , (Telepte), 100%, F
15-Jan-43, , Ju 88A-4, 140052, Erhardt, Fw. Andreas, , KG 77, 1., weiße A, 3Z+AH, , , KIA due to Luftkampf with enemy fighters. Bf also KIA, B & Bs WIA., B Uffz. Johann Gotthardt, Bf Uffz. Ferdinand Arweiler & Bs Uffz. Heinrich Koch, , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13, , (Telepte), 100%, F
15-Jan-43, , Ju 88A-4, 141097, Wagner, Uffz. Josef, , KG 77, 1., weiße C, 3Z+CH, , , KIA with crew due to Luftkampf with enemy fighters., B Uffz. Ludwig Böhein, Bf Uffz. Helmut Krämer & Bs Fw. Fritz Fernau, , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13, , (Telepte), 100%, F
15-Jan-43, , Ju 88A-4, 140419, Winkler, Ofw. Erich, , KG 77, 1., , 3Z+HN, , , MIA due to Luftkampf with enemy fighters. Bs also MIA, B & Bf KIA., B Fw. Adolf Grunwald, Bf Fw. Ludwig Lidi & Bs Ogefr. Hermann Bordsen, , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13, , (Telepte), 100%, F
15-Jan-43, , Ju 88A-4, 141035, Jäckel, Uffz. Kurt, , KG 77, 2., , 3Z+EK, , , MIA with crew due to Luftkampf with enemy fighters., B Gefr. Ernst Köllges, Bf Uffz. Wolf-Dieter Grube & Bs Gefr. Hans Wippke, , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13, , (Telepte), 100%, F
15-Jan-43, , Ju 88A-4, , KIRSCH, Ofw. Heinz, , KG 77, 3., gelbe F, 3Z+FL, , , WIA on this date in this machine., , RK., Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Shores, Ring & Hess, Fighters Over Tunisia, p.154, , Telepte, b, F
15-Jan-43, , Ju 88A-4, 140453, Witter, Uffz. Johannes, , KG 77, 3., gelbe J, 3Z+JL, , , MIA with crew due to Luftkampf with enemy fighters., B Uffz. Friedrich Winzer, Bf Ogefr. Helmut Schnackenberg & Bs Gefr. Wilhelm Schuster, , Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13, , (Telepte), 100%, F
15-Jan-43, , Ju 88A-4, 140462, BETKE, Oblt. Siegfried, , KG 77, I., , , , , WIA with crew due to Luftkampf with enemy fighters. Notlandung., B Uffz. Karl-August Hansen, Bf Uffz. Kurt Schimpf & Bs Ogefr. Walter Hernig, RK., Ob.Bhf.Süd/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13, , bei Tunis, 100%, F

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Faenor

Interesting colour photo. I had seen it elsewhere. I think this might be 140396 B3+JM - Read letters J.M on nose (a bit stylish to look like Arabic?) Besides two White stripes (colours of 4. Staffeln / II Gruppen), rather fresh looking camouflage, new replacement aircraft. By this time (15.01.1943) this plane was only apx. 3,5 months old...

thenelm

F Ofw. Heinz Kirsch loss is in GQM losses, just not this date! Likely he was only lightly injured on 15.01.43 (and if plane was under 10% damaged it was not recorded in GQM losses) - He was lost the following month in 3Z+FL

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Hi Ed, are you sure Kirsch was lost in 3Z+FL 8.2.43 ... I have 3Z+HL W.Nr 141215 lost on this date.

But of course im sure you have more information than me.

Best regards,
Steve.

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Hi Ed,

Are you sure about this? I would think the first white band would indicate the Gruppe (1st Gruppe in this case) & the second white band the Staffel within that Gruppe.

So in this case it would mean 1st Staffel which had the Staffel letter H.

Kind regards,
Rudi.

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

RudiS

First thought to me was that two rings on spinner indicated II Gruppen, then White the Staffeln (in this case 4. Staffeln) - But as you point out, I might have it wrong here ... I have not done in-dept study of all spinner markings in each and every Ju 88 unit in MTO but quick search (all night) has left me with more questions than answers! But what do you make of script of nose. It seems like J.M to me....


Steve

You have 3Z+HL correct, my typo, sorry.

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Hi all,
looks, that we have good conversation with many from you :-)

My question - have some body this photo in better qualitty ? If this maschine is from KG 54 (edNorth´s idea about JM on the nose), raided KG 54 same airfield like KG 77 or its from another mission, but in same day ? Have somebody info about mission of KG 54 from this day ..

Thanks to all and enyoy all replies or another question about this masacre day of Ju 88 over Thelepte or about another mission about Ju 88 in MTO, specially Tunis campaing

Faenor

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Hi Ed, no problem.
Im sure we've all made the odd typo at some time or another!

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

There are more losses related to Thelepte:

II/KG 30 lost at least two Ju 88 before in raid on "Telepte" 13.01.1943

140438 (no code given) crew uninjured
140172 4D+FP crew escaped.

II/KG 54 lost one Ju 88 before in raid on Thepte 03.01.1943

142283 B3+KP crew missing

There might be clues to these losses in "Fighters over the Desert" but I do not have it.

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Ed,

I've seen pictures of Ju 88's in Northern Africa which had names on them. On of them was "Traudl" which belonged to KG54. Another one was "Dohle". Not sure which unit it belonged to. See also this thread here:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ighlight=dohle
But I've never seen a Ju 88 with part of the tactical code on the nose. Besides, the "dot" seems to be shaped strange,...for a dot.

I also would like to add that there is nothing else that can link the Ju 88 in the coloured picture to KG54. No skull & bones insigna on the nose, no diagonal coloured band on the fuselage.

Does anyone has a better picture of this FL aircraft? Even a black & white one would do. I also am interested to find out what's written on the nose.

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Faenor:
I have the following for that day (january 15th 1943):
I./KG 54: located at Piacenza, Italy from december 22nd 1942 till february 15th 1943 for recuperating
II./KG 54 : Attacked Tamet-west airfield in Lybia
III./KG 54: no info for this day

Reagrds,
Rudi.

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Rudi

So I decided to back to square one! Second night searching has me not entierly convinced either way. Ploughing thrugh publications and stuff, I have found indications leading to both units... of sorts ... but KG 30 can not be ruled out. KG 54 had some aircraft painted similar (but again photo texts are not that reliable) and absense of unit emblem is bad. If I/KG 77 it might have been on rudder tip (this angle has it out of sight). I have found just one (old eBay images) of I/KG 77 aircraft with similar spinner stripes, but most I/KG 77 aircraft found seem using slightly other form of spinner colouring. Again we do not see both spinners so we do not know if it maybe had replacement spinner on right side. Both units did mottle theirs undersides for night / dusk operations, but then side insignias (usually) were toned down too. This seems fresh, so possibly not yet in full markings?

(Blowing this image in photoshop has not turned up more clues)

But I have also some American stuff (microfilms) to go thrugh. Maybe some info turns up there.

Lots of if´s and but´s. Lets hope more images pop up! I too find this very interesting as to its colours!

Best regards
ed

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

I'm not very good with Photoshop, but here is what I came up with.
It looks like it says "Josu" or "Fosu" or something. Or maybe "J.su" which would be pronounced Jesu in german, Jesus in english. Which would very much surprise me.:rolleyes:

I hope some of the german members of this board can do better....

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Hi all,

in this photo from e-bay is Ju 88 with 2 rings on the spinner, but dont know, which unit is it and time, but looks like MTO

http://cgi.ebay.de/DAK-Afrikakorps-P...item1c110ad8b0

Faenor

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Worth a look : http://ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php

Relevant of this topic :

in the scrollbox below Photographer select Crowder

among the results of the search :

http://www.ww2color.com/search/webap...mary_key=00765

http://www.ww2color.com/search/webap...mary_key=00755

http://www.ww2color.com/search/webap...mary_key=02446

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

Seems this is 3Z+AH 140052. My apologies.

Re: Losses of Ju 88 15th January 1943
 

I do have the 8-Feb loss for Kirsch, but Fighters Over Tunisia, p.154 says he was wounded on 15-Jan with the code of his machine. It must have been only minor injuries because, while the aircraft may have not been damaged enough to be reported, the Gen.Qu. reports do list some crew casualties with no aircraft details - though how regularly or thoroughly these types of losses were reported is anyone's guess.