D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Hi,


I have a problem with JG 2 Losses on D-Day.
Osprey JG 2 book by John Weal claimed that only two Fw 190 were lost by JG 2 on D-Day, both of them as non-combat losses.
Jg 26 volume 2 by Donald Caldwell claims 9 Fw 190 lost by JG 2 what seems to by true - 7 shot down by Allied fighters (see below) and two crashed/downed by Flak as claimed Weal

As I know 'Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei den (fliegende) Verbänden" claimed loss of only 5 JG 2s Fw 190:
-one from 3./JG 2 (Nancy-Creil FP), apparently plane claimed by Weal as crashed en route flight from nancy to Creil
-two from 11./JG 2 (Buc b. and Rouen S). Second of them seems to be a/c claimed by weal as a/c shot down by own Flak south of Rouen
-two from 12./JG 2


Here is my analysis of JG 2 D-Day air combats.

Sources:
"2nd TAF vol 1" by Christopcher Shores,
"Fighter Pilots and Units of the 8th USAAF" by Kent.D. Miller
"JG 26 vol 2" by Donald Caldwell
"Over the Beaches" by John Foreman
Luftwaffe claim list by Tonny Woods


Around 7.00
Lt. Thomas E. Fraser from 4. FG is missing. Millers book claimed this a/c as shot down by fighters, but there is no Luftwaffe claims at this time. Fraser belly landed near Campari (western France!) and was captured. His P-51 was flying at Rechlin Luftwaffe research center as a T9+HK plane.

-------------------------------------
Around 12.00-12.30
Three Typhoons downed by "by 109" (Fw 190 in fact). F/L R. W. Wvans (MN4320), F/O A. R. Taylor (R8973) and F/O M. H. Gee (MN478) all KIA.
Four German claims for Typhoons: Hptm. Herberta Huppertza III/JG 2 CO (x2), Gefr. Manfred Fieseler 10./JG 2 and Ofw. Lüdwig Hartmann Stab I/JG 2.
At this same same time Major Kurt Bühligen JG 2 CO, and Uffz. Romauld Nistler Stab I/JG 2 claimed "P-47" but no losses of this type due air combat for 6th June.
At 12. 30 Lt. W. W. McElhare 62. FS/56. FG claimed Fw 190
F-6s (recon P-51) pilots of 15.TRS, claimed 3-0-1 Fw 190s over Dreux and Laval. Claimers: Lt. J. E. Conklin, Lt. C. B. East i Lt. F. M. Schonard.

--------------------------------------

Around 16.30
83. FS/78. FG bounced over Mayenne group of 8-12 Fw 190 and claimed two Fw 190 for Col. F. C. Gray and Lt. P. A. Caulfield (0.5 kill each) and Lt. P. A. Caulfield (full kill)
---------------------------------------

17.25
Major Erich Hohagen Stab I/JG 2 claimed a Typhoon fighter around Beaumont-le-Roger; in this same place and time Mustang I of 430 Sqn (AG465 F/O J. S. Cox KIA) was shot down by Fw 190.

---------------------------------------
18.20
Hptm. Huppertz shot down Typhoon (MN 454, F/O A. E. Roberts KIA) of 164. Sqn.
One of Fw 190s was claimed in return by S/L R. H. Beake.
---------------------------------------
Around 20.00-21.00
Hptm. Huppertz lead formation of five Fw 190 from III/JG 2 and three more from I/JG 2 At 20.35 Huppertz claimed a P-51. At this same time a pair of P-51B from 334. FS/4. FG was bounced and shot down by fighters (43-6898 piloted by Maj. Sobiański,and 43-6957 piloted by Lt. Steppe, both KIA.) No other JG 2 claim at this time. At 20.54 this same German formation bounced flight from 335.FS/4. FG and shot down three P-51B ( Capt. B. McGrattan 42-106576), F/O Walter Smith (43-7172) and Lt. Harold Ross (42-106786); all KIA. Also Lt. C. E. Garbey piloted a 334. FS P-51B 43-6575 was KIA (by fighters acording to Miller book)
JG 2 claims;
06.06.44 Hptm. Herbert Huppertz Stab III./JG 2 P-51 �� 3 km. N.W. Évreux: 500 m. 20.35 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.66
06.06.44 Fhr. Fritz Beer Stab I./JG 2 P-51 �� UB Raum Bernay: 500 m. 20.56 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.95
06.06.44 Ltn. Eickhoff Stab I./JG 2 P-51 �� Raum Bernay: 600 m. 20.54 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.94
06.06.44 Hptm. Herbert Huppertz Stab III./JG 2 P-47 �� UC 10 km. W.N.W. Evreux: 600 m. 20.59 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.67
06.06.44 Fhr. Hans-Joachim Voormann 12./JG 2 P-51 �� 10 km. N.W. Evreux: 1.200-1.500 m. 21.03 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.92
06.06.44 Uffz. Karl Biehlolawek 12./JG 2 P-51 �� 15 km. N.W. Evreux: 800-1.000 m. 21.04 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.93
06.06.44 Fw. Fritz Schüler 12./JG 2 Typhoon �� UC-7.3: 800 m. 12 km. N.W. Évreux 21.04 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.94
06.06.44 Oblt. Siekmann 9./JG 2 Typhoon �� UC-7: 1.000 m. [bei Evreux] 21.05 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.105
06.06.44 Fw. Otto Müller 12./JG 2 Typhoon �� UC-7.2: 800-1.000 m. 10 km. N.W. Evreux 21.05 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.95.
06.06.44 Ltn. E. Fischer I./JG 2 P-51 �� Bernay 20.56 Reference: JG 2 MSS Lists


Allied claims:
21.00: Capt. Boleslawa Gladych, 56. FG USAAF" 1 Bf 109 shot down. His combat report at http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ch-6june44.jpg
21.15: W/O W. E. Rigby, 129. Sqn RAF: 1 Fw 190 shot down


Summary:
Of 18 fighters claimed by JG 2 pilots , 11 seems to be confirmed from RAF and USAAF sources.
Allied pilots claimed 9 Fw 190, 7 of them presumably against JG 2 planes, two others were claimed by 352. FG against JG 26 planes ( one shot down in fact).

Gladych Bf 109 claim is presumably 3./NAGr 13 reconnaissance plane. As I know this Staffel lost two planes on 6 th June, but no other details. Anyone can help ?

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Gizmo,

One comment is that Lt. Fraser obviously landed his P-51 wheels down, that is, made a normal landing. Otherwise, the Luftwaffe would never have been able to fly his P-51 out of France on June 7,1944 as they did.

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Thanks for your comment, as well answer my KG 2 question.

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

On 6.june losses for the NAGr.13 pres. 3.staffel were

3 NAGr,13 X Luftangriff BF109G 710064 100 %
3 NAGr,13 X N F BF109G 710067 30 %

First one destroyed at airplace, second forcedlanded due to ennemy

Rémi

D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Hi Gizmo

Bergström identified the opponents of Huppertz on 6 June 1944 as being:

• P-47 fighters of 365 FG, USAAF and Typhoon fighters of 183 Sqn, RAF during which JG 2 claimed six and lost one whereas actual Allied losses in this engagement were two P-47 fighters and three Typhoon fighters, including two by Huppertz.
• Typhoon fighters of 164 Sqn, RAF and one was shot down by Huppertz (F/O Roberts)
• P-51 fighters of 4 FG, USAAF and 352 FG, USAAF and P-47 fighters of the 56 FG, USAAF and Typhoon fighters of the 2 TAF with one each of the USAAF fighters claimed by Huppertz who was leading a composite formation from JG 2 and 2./JG 26.

The original post can be seen at http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=625 I have no idea if this information is correct but perhaps you would be interested in it.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Hi,

Thanks for answers.
As I know both 365th pilots were killed by theirs own bombs blast (see below). According to Miller book, both 352nd P-51Bs (piloted by Lt. Buller and Lt O'Nan, both POW), were claimed as shot down by Flak.
I'm going to buy "Angels Eight: Normandy Air War Diary" book to check Mr. Bergströms informations.
--------
"First Lt. Jack J. Martell deliberately dropped his 500-pound bombs from just a few feet in the air. The delay fuses malfunctioned, and Lt. Martell’s plane was caught in the blast and debris from the twin explosions. He crashed in flames on the outskirts of St. Lo.

Another Hell Hawk fell near St. Sauveur de Pierre Pont. The bombs of 1st Lt. Robert L. Shipe from York, Pa., also detonated prematurely, and Lt. Shipe’s P-47 slammed into a field. French villagers recovered the pilot’s body and tended Lt. Shipe’s grave until Allied forces broke through."

Source: http://skywalking1.wordpress.com/200...-path-for-gis/

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

I have "Angels Eight: Normandy Air War Diary" and I don't believe it's a reliable source. Save your money. Get it through ILL (Interlibrary Loan) if you want to examine it.

The 365th P-47s were NOT lost to enemy fighters. I went through the all the losses for P-47s on D-Day and only found one that maybe could have been shot down by enemy fighters. The MACR just listed it as missing-cause unknown.

D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Hi guys

In all fairness, I should point out that Bergström states in the thread that he used Clark's information both from the book and the CD of claims and losses, which he admits contain errors, as only two of several sources by which he arrived at his conclusions. He also states that sorting out the details of aerial combat on D-Day is very difficult due to the large number of aircraft involved as well as errors in dates and times and imprecise locations in the records. Grabowski as well stated that matching the aerial combat of the day using various other sources is very difficult. I applaud Gizmo for making the attempt!

Horrido!

Leo

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

kaki3152,
All five 9th USAAF missing P-47s were from Groups attributed to fighter-bomber missions over areas of three (western) US beaches. Luftwaffe pilots claimed theirs victories east of Caen, no way that they shot down any 9th USAAF P-47.
Some of four P-47s claimed by 8th USAAF as shot down by Flak are more likely candidates for victims of JG 2 fighters.

Edit:
After some time for playing with googlemaps, I found that all crashsites of 8th USAAF P-47s are situated at least around 100 kilometers far away from Caen, and for now I can tell that Buhligen probably did not shot down P-47. So Typhoon is my type.

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Gizmo,

That is the conclusion I came to some time ago. Given the times and locations, Buhlingen's victory had to be a Typhoon.

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

As the NAGr. 13 aspect of this looks neglected, I am obliged to chime in with information gleaned mainly from pages 315 to 320 of the book:

Frappé, Jean-Bernard. La Luftwaffe face au débarquement allié (Bayeux: Editions Heimdal , 1999. ISBN: 2-84048-126-X

The following reflects losses in June 1944:

Stab/NAGr. 13
None known.

1./NAGr. 13
17.06.44 lost two Bf 109 G E of Chartres and over the estuary Orne-Vire
18.06.44 lost a Bf 109 G-6 vic Caen- north of Sées
28.06.44 lost Bf 109 G-6 (RW+DP) north of Caen

2./NAGr. 13
14.06.44 lost Fw 190 A-3 , Oblt. Walter Erhard KIA vic Ajaccio
29.06.44 lost Fw 190 A-4 south of Nice

3./NAGr. 13
12.06.44 lost Bf 109 G-8 vic Dom-front-Dompierre
16.06.44 lost Bf 109 G, S of Bayeux
24.06.44 lost Bf 109 G-8 vic Vire


I hope that this helps.

DGS

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Not completely perhaps: http://www.ghostbombers.com/recon/nag13.html

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

With Minner I always wonder about "correctness " of his name Alf-eduard, maybe some german natives could give any hints ??

Remi

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

From published sources, other than Weal - I don't remember when the Weal's JG 2 book from Osprey was originally published, before or after Frappé? Possibly before -

Fw 190A-8, 170335, Schulwitz, Fhr. Gerhard, , 6., JG 26, gelbe, 10 + -, GU+RD, , 06-Jun-44, Reported lost due to ship's Flak. Returned., , FR, Caldwell, JG 26 War Diary, II, p.270, Merrick, LW Camo & Markings 33-45, II, p.370, Ornemündung, 100%, F, , , Bremen factory
Fw 190A-8, 170347, Bergmann, Uffz. Kurt, , 11., JG 2, , , GU+RP, , 06-Jun-44, KIA due to own Flak., Frappé says WNr. 170343 - a dup., FR, Ring, JG 2 loss list, p.25; Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.34, 313, Merrick, LW Camo & Markings 33-45, II, p.370, südlich Rouen, 100%, F, , ,
Fw 190A-8, , Krieger, Uffz. Erich, , 11., JG 2, , , , , 06-Jun-44, FSA due to Luftkampf., , FR, Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.33, 313, , Buc, 100%, F, , ,
Fw 190A-8, 170725, Lüdtke, Uffz. Günter, , , Erprob.Kdo. 25, , , , , 06-Jun-44, Injured in crash., , Lfl. Reich, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/779, p.92, , Fl.Pl. Parchim, 100%, H, , ,
Fw 190A-8, , Schneider, FhjUffz. Friedrich, , 2., JG 26, , , , , 06-Jun-44, Bauchlandung due to ship's Flak. Killed next day in traffic accident., , FR, Caldwell, JG 26 War Diary, II, p.270, , Fl.Pl. Beaumont le Roger, b, F, , ,
Fw 190A-8, 170383, Lindner, Uffz. Erich, , 7., JG 26, braune, 10 + -, GU+SZ, , 06-Jun-44, WIA due to Luftkampf with P-51s. FSA., , FR, Caldwell, JG 26 War Diary, II, p.270, Merrick, LW Camo & Markings 33-45, II, p.370, St. Opportune, 100%, F, , , Bremen factory
Fw 190A-6, 650503, Kolberg, Ofw. Martin, , 7., SG 4, weiße, A +, , , 06-Jun-44, KIA due to Luftkampf with P-51s. Passenger KIA., , FR, Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.263, 313, , SE of Laval, 100%, F, , ,
Fw 190A-6, 470585, Speer, Uffz. Otto, , 7., SG 4, weiße, L +, , , 06-Jun-44, KIA due to Luftkampf with P-51s., , FR, Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.263, 313, , Laval, 100%, F, , ,
Fw 190A-6, 650502, Rahofer, Uffz., , Stab III., SG 4, schwarze, || +, , , 06-Jun-44, Luftkampf with P-51s. Passenger WIA., , FR, Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.262, 313, , östlich Bretigny, b, F, , ,
Fw 190A-7, 430472, Pühringer, Oblt. Johann, , Stab III., SG 4, , , , , 06-Jun-44, Adj. KIA due to Luftkampf with P-51s. Passenger escaped., , FR, Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.262, 313, , Bretigny, 100%, F, , ,
Fw 190A-6, 470601, Mihlan, Hptm. Heinz, , 8., SG 4, schwarze, M + |, , , 06-Jun-44, Staffelkapitan. FSA after Luftkampf with P-51s. Passenger KIA., , FR, Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.262, 313, , Saint-Jean-d'Assé, 100%, F, , ,
Fw 190A-8, 170119, Bleich, Ltn. Hans, , 6., JG 26, schwarze, 5 + -, , , 06-Jun-44, Injured, crashed on take-off, caught if Glunz's propwash., , FR, Caldwell, JG 26 War Diary, II, p.270, , Fl.Pl. Biarritz, b, F, , ,
Fw 190A-8, , Schneider, Uffz. Friedrich, , 2., JG 26, , , , , 06-Jun-44, Notlandung., , FR, Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.40, 313, , Fl.Pl. Beaumont-le-Roger, b, F, , ,
Fw 190A-8, 730466, Winter, Uffz. Hans-Werner, , 3., JG 26, gelbe, 3 +, , , 06-Jun-44, KIA due to own Flak., , FR, Caldwell, JG 26 War Diary, II, p.270, , Abbeville, 100%, F, , ,
Fw 190A-, , n.n., , II., JG 1, , , , , 06-Jun-44, Technical failure., , FR, Prien & Rodeike, JG 1 & 11, II, p.1186, , Ort unbekannt, b, F, , ,
Fw 190A-6, 470582, Brauneis, Fw. Franz, , 8., SG 4, schwarze, B +, , , 06-Jun-44, KIA due to Luftkampf with P-51s. Passenger escaped., , FR, Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.262, 313, , La Bazoge nördlich Le Mans, 100%, F, , ,
Fw 190A-8, , Müller, Fw., , 12., JG 2, , , , , 06-Jun-44, MIA, cause unknown., , FR, Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.35, 313, , , 100%, F, , ,
Fw 190A-8, 170012, Thiel, Uffz. Franz, , 3., JG 2, , , , , 06-Jun-44, Killed in crash during transit flight., , FR, Ring, JG 2 loss list, p.25; Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.16, 313, , Nancy-Creil, 100%, H, , ,

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Hi!

The Summarische Verlustemeldungen is an assistance with regards to getting the numbers right.

According to these, the JG 2 reported losing the folllowing aircraft in the listed loss categories on D-Day :

I./J.G.2:
1 aircraft, destroyed on the ground by enemy bomb (No personnel injury)
3 aircraft, damaged without enemy action on operational flight (No personnel injury)
1 aircraft, destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy (Pilot KIA)

III./J.G.2:
2 aircraft, missing due to enemy action (1 pilot MIA, 1 pilot KIA)
2 aircraft, destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy (No personnel injury)

So Donald Caldwell got the numbers correct, John Weal did not. Also, Gizmo, you state that the "Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei den (fliegende) Verbänden" only list 5 aircraft from JG 2, that is incorrect. The number is as given by the Summarische Verlustemeldungen 9 aircraft in total, reported in the reports of 12.06.1944 (4 aircraft), 17.06.1944 (3 aircraft), 20.06.1944 (1 aircraft) and 26.06.1944 (1 aircraft).

These were the initial recordings made by the unit.

Turning to N.A.Gr.13, according to the summary loss records they did not report any losses on D-Day.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Thanks for helpful comments.
Now I see that there were two different clashes between USAAF and III/SG 4, also with 78th FG (or 15th TRS) against 8./SG 4.

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Question for "Thenelm" regarding:

Fw 190A-6, 470601, Mihlan, Hptm. Heinz, , 8., SG 4, schwarze, M + |, , , 06-Jun-44, Staffelkapitan. FSA after Luftkampf with P-51s. Passenger KIA., , FR, Frappé, La LW face au débarquement allié, p.262, 313, , Saint-Jean-d'Assé, 100%, F, , ,

"Passenger KIA?" Why would there be a passenger in a single seater? Or does this refer to Mihlan? If not, did Mihlan survive uninjured? I noticed another SG 4 entry mentioned a passenger. I am aware that during evacuations single seater air units would stuff a mechanic into the baggage compartment.

Thanks,
Tom

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Andreas,

Turning to N.A.Gr.13, according to the summary loss records they did not report any losses on D-Day.


Could you pls give the full losses for the month of june exposed by the Sum's ??

NAGr.13 could be read as 4 or 5.F123...


Remi

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

I mean the losses for the NAGr.13 nd F123

Remi

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Tom,
"FSA" note for Hptm. Mihlan = "ballied out". He claimed one (not conformed by USAAF sources) P-51 before his plane was shot down. On D-Day each staffel of III/SG 4 making independent transfer flight from South France airfields to Normandy area, so you right, additional passengers are mechanics.

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Thanks, Gizmo.

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Tom, I think the last part of your statement and Gizmo's offer the explanation. I have no other information. Jim P.

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Tom, seems they hv been caugth being moving-in, 4 "passengers" were killed that day

Ebert paul uf
Eidam hans fw
Klunkert fritz oge
Krüsmann martin uf

Rémi

Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses
 

Hi!

The Summarische Verlustemeldungen for N.A.Gr.13 reports the following for the month of June:

Stab/N.A.Gr.13:
17.06.1944 1 aircraft, missing due to enemy action (Pilot, non-officer rank, KIA)
19.06.1944 1 aircraft, missing due to enemy action (Pilot, officer rank, KIA)

1./N.A.Gr.13:
17.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy (Pilot, non-officer rank, MIA)
17.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy (No personnel injury)
17.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged withouth enemy action on non-operational flight (No personnel injury)
24.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged on the ground by gunfire from enemy aircraft (No personnel injury)27.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged withouth enemy action on operational flight (No personnel injury)
28.06.1944 1 aircraft, missing due to enemy action (Pilot, officer rank, MIA)
28.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy (No personnel injury)

2./N.A.Gr.13:
03.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed withouth enemy action on operational flight (No personnel injury)
03.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed withouth enemy action on operational flight (Pilot, non-officer rank, WIA)
14.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, not observed by enemy (Pilot, officer rank, KIA)
29.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, not observed by enemy (Pilot, non-officer rank, MIA)

3./N.A.Gr.13:
05.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged withouth enemy action on operational flight (No personnel injury)
12.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy (Pilot, officer rank, KIA)
27.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged withouth enemy action on operational flight (No personnel injury)
29.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed withouth enemy action on non-operational flight (Pilot, officer rank, KIA)
29.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged withouth enemy action on non-operational flight (Pilot, non-officer rank, WIA)
29.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, not observed by enemy (No personnel injury)

Will come back with any info on 123 later

Regards,
Andreas B