German pilots straffing civilians in France and England 1940
 

Does anyone have any works or lists dealing with the subject? I have several mentions of straffing civilians but this does not allow to draw any conclusions as to how common it was.
Franek

My family was one of these who evacuated their homes and started on the roads of what was called THE Evacuation at the time.

One of my uncle was the witness of such a strafing situation where one, if biased, can say that "german planes" came to machine guns inocent civilians on the road. However during evening discussions, his recollections were that the road was occupied at the same time by units of the French army in retreat, most were infantry trying to get somewhere under orders and with officers, other groups of soldiers were straglers and lost, mixed in packages with civilians. in the middle of these one could sometimes see a real french army convoy trying to make way through the multitude with artillery and wagons pulled by horses, etc...

In that precise engagement, my uncle recollected that german planes came first at low altitude and flew over the section of road where he was moving with his bicycle, then having seen the cannons and the troopers peeled up to come back and started to shoot at the space where the soldiers were. Obviously some civilians ended up slaugthered in the process. If this type of incident happened on the road going away from Northern France towards Normandy in late May 1940, it must have happened several times in other places.

Was it deliberate policy or cruelty...If one look at it from an operational point of view today, the attack of such an objective was justified under war conditions; in most case, I am ready to believe that the pilots went for objectives of opportunity. If we need some relevant guidance we can look at operations in Iraq today.
To my knowledge, there are a few mentions of such events in some french writings unrelated to "aviation". Most of the witnesses were emotionally and physically involved and their view is obviously biased.

Last but to notice, many frenchmen that I know told me the same type of tale but in their souvenirs the planes were italians. And this subject invariably brought up an enraged emotional state in the teller. Although I have always made a point of telling that no Italian planes were involved in the fight in the north of France in May 1940, people will swear they could see italian colours on the low flying aircraft.

regards

I am reluctant to reply since the inflaming of emotions is a real concern. See this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_bombing

And see this book:
Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945 by Frederick Taylor.

So-called "non-combatants" have been deliberatey targeted since antiquity. As if one could fight a war where only those legally allowed to kill each other would face off and the innocent "refugees" would just stay out of the way. Rape, murder, mutilation, and torture of civilians were not "invented" recently. These tactics are designed to weaken the will of the people so they might put down their arms or at least fear the enemy to the point of having second thoughts about putting up a determined resistance.

My father fought the Germans and later, in the very few times he spoke of it, likened it to a job where you killed the enemy before he killed you. It was his duty to defend his country and he carried it out. He also did not appear to have been emotionally scarred by the experience and just moved on with his life.

It is schizophrenic that in war, a combatant might kill his legal enemy by fire, explosive, gun, knife or brute force, but there is still a desire to retain the image of being better than one's enemies by not targeting their civilian population. However, once the other side does so, all bets are off and the justification, if one were needed, to respond in kind is allowed.

The phrase "rules of war" is a little misleading vis a vis what actually goes on in the field of battle and among those refugees.





Ed

Thanks for your reply.

Do you have any date and/or place for the incident?

There were numerous attacks on civilians or farm animals. My late friend told me of an incident when a mother with children was straffed and killed in field, no possibility she could have been mistook for a military target. Similar action was seen by my Grandpa but I do not remember any more details. But this happenned in Poland and I am interested in the West.

The question remains what they have actually seen and what caused them to believe those were French markings. It is just like Clostermann's yellow Fw 190.

Best wishes

Ed
I am not talking of bombing but of individual(?) actions of German pilots that were widely known in 1940 (see Paul Richey's Fighter Pilot for example).
Concerning Allied actions, recently published Spit & Polish does include an extremally interesting and important document on the subject.
Regards

Franek,


To what end are you collecting this information?


Ed

Well, nothing at the moment, the subject just appeared in discussion concerning German behaviour in Poland. I was awared of the issue, reputedly quite common but I am looking for something more and better documented. I would appreciate a list ofAllied pilots killed on parachutes as well - as yet I have a few incidents from Allied reports only without details on victims - eg. likely JG54 action on 5.09.1940 over Thames Estuary.

Hi all,

This may or may not be of use as I couldn't suggest where the incident took place other than probably outskirts of Southampton, England (I'm sure it was either High Street or Church Street) in August/September 1940.

An uncle (since deceased), recalled what was initially reported as a strafing incident when aircraft MG fire went rattling down the street. Apparently no-one killed or injured, but with slight property damage. He said that a few days later it was decided that it was in fact a low level dogfight/chase with fire from both parties, in the 'heat of the chase', but that the information was to be 'kept quiet' presumably as the propaganda value of the incident was greater if it had been a strafing attack!

If there is any truth in this I suppose that there may be a Civil Defence file somewhere extant that may refer to it.

HTH,

David

Strafing
 

Seems to me that most of the hit-and-run attacks by German Jabos in 42-43 included some type of strafing of streets and so on.

As for France in 1940, the main problem is that the administration was often the first to leave an area (after an order or not), so the 'Exode' is a really confuse study subject.

My own opinion is that German planes targeted more the railway system or the frontline than the roads, and that French troops and refugees were safer on the road. The occasional attack by Bf110 can't be compared to what happened in 1944 in France.

So far I have few precise example (with date, place and circunstances) of a road strafing attack by German planes in France in 1940. On the other hand I have tens of bombing raids on ports, railroads and airfields, or Stuka raids on frontline units or artillery positions.

I will just add that I don't want at all to say Germany led a "clean war" in France in 1940. More than 1000 soldiers (mainly Black and Arab) and civilians were killed in war crimes by German ground units.

May I ask what purpose this line of enquiry is leading to. Not wishing to fan the flames of this rather contentious issue I am sure that every airforce is guilty of this type of action in one way or another.

The strafing of German refugees from Dresden by US fighters in February 1945 springs to mind, truth or fiction, the strafing of trains in the occupied regions of France, Belgium and Holland by Mosquito’s / Tempest’s of the 2nd TAF where not these trains carrying ‘innocent’ civilians. ?

From my own research I have documents relating to certain individuals on a certain heavy bomber squadron purposely returning from raids at low level so they could strafe trains and motor transport.

I agree these actions should be reported and open to discussion, however lets not restrict ourselves to one particular airforce.

Smudger

I agree. Civilian deads due to bombings are a main caracteristic of modern warfare, even with all the technology now available.

It's easy to call airmen war criminals, when civilians or hospitals are hit but in many cases, they behave the same in enemy or Allied territory.

There were far more friendly fire errors by bombers than hospital bombings, so probably a good part are an error.

And a French civilian had more chances to be killed if he drived in summer 1944 under Allied bullets than in June 1940 under German ones.

Anyway, that should not stop people asking about these subjects. Or some bad cases may be thought to be the norm.

In that case, as I said before, road strafing is often mentionned in Exode stories but is more rarely confirmed by historical local studies (that far more often will describe bombings of stations, ports, bridges or airfields, that killed civilians too) or official reports.

The same local history books on the contrary will often have one or several examples of road strafing by Allied fighters in 1944, either on German units, on civilians vehicles (or carts) or on Resistance convoys.

Hi Franek

What do you mean about the JG 54 at the 5. September 1940. I think you mean the second combat on the afternoon, targets were Oil- an Gasolinetanks between Southend and Tilbury. The loss were two dead pilots from the III.Gruppe, one from the II.Gruppe and a rescud pilot from the same Gruppe. Five victorys from the JG 54.

Christian

Christian
Yes, I mean the afternoon sortie targetting Petrol (it is England) tanks in Thameshaven area. IIRC Josef Frantisek's report mentions German pilots attacking airmen on parachutes.

Laurent
Thanks for the reply. I am focused on the events of 1939-1940, when the straffing terror was born. Certainly military targets were of much more attention of the Luftwaffe, nonetheless there are numerous mentions of attacks on purely civilian targets but nothing in kind of detailed reports. I am just curious how many such attacks really occured and are documented.

David
Indeed I am awared of such friendly fire incidents. Thanks for reminding, it adds some perspective as well.

Smudger
Do I have to remind you the German media offensive against Bomber Harris' monument? Everyone knows of Dresden but not everyone ever heard about Wielun or Blitz, events that occured more than 5 years before. It seems German attacks remain undocumented, so I took the liberty of asking my own questions and posted here.

Rant
 

I was there at the unveiling of the monument to Harris, I was present when the anti war brigade started to hurl abuse and shout over the speech by our late Queen Mother. I am also aware of the campaign by certain fractions of the German media and my own media here in England.

As I have said, this subject should be discussed but in context, ALL nations, ALL airforces carried out such actions, why restrict it to just the Luftwaffe, or is it a German thing. ?

The vast majority of people (not those in the aviation field who can view the subject with at times some clarity :roll: ) take on board this “ sensationalism “ and usually refer to this type of incident when wanting to ridicule those who served and jump on the anti war soap box.

I am also aware that a majority of people especially in Germany look at the bomber offensive in a more philosophical way. That my opinion. :wink: The Bombing of civilians in what ever guise can be traced back to WW.1.

Regarding the Blitz, I am from London, my parents lived through the Blitz, and we lost family members in the Blitz. A school in Catford SE London , 3 miles from were I live was destroyed by 2 or 3 Fw190 killing a number of children in 1942-1943. However, having researched and studied the Air War over Europe and particularly the operations by RAF Bomber Command I can confirm that such tragic events unfolded every single day. To pin-point one airforce’s actions is counterproductive.

My rant is over, I’m off to the pub to have a drink of German beer. :P

Re: Rant
 

Such actions of 1939-1940 involved only one side (well, possibly two including Soviet Union), they predecessed later actions and I am interested only in the former. My context is a comparison of German warcrimes in Poland and during 1940 Blitz.
I have a right to ask whatever questions I wish but nobody can forbid you to ask another question on this or Allied forum as well.
Having said that I expect some serious answers and not a PC discussion.

Strafing.....
 

Hi,
I have to agree with Franek, one whom I have always found to be fairly well balanced in his approach, and who can separate facts from emotions - something I consider necessary in any area of research. Franek has an interest in a particular area and I dare say that a similar question could have been aired, vice versa, on the Allied forum.

I would find it of interest if someone else went away with the info that Franek and others pull together to give a 'heliview' although - as I'm sure we are all aware - it would just prove that, as in politics, there is good and bad in all parties!

As regards civilians in cases of war one doesn't need to have studied at Sandhurst or West Point to know that in pre-history they would often be put to death if not enslaved by the victorious side. A signed paper agreement, or thoughts as to what is currently 'PC', has not, does not and never will stop these sorts of things from happening. We are all human, we are all different, we never truly know how we would react in any situation until we reach it. What is 'PC' in one culture may not be in another - who decides which one is correct?

Now, can anyone give Franek the sort of info that he requires?

Kind regards to all,

David

Re: Strafing.....
 

David
Thanks for your kind words. I am afraid, however, that this is one of those obvious questions that nobody ever bothered to answer.
As a side note to PC discussion, an Italian journal wrote recently on Polish(!) concentration camp in Auschwitz-Birkenau. I am afraid that with such a knowledge and bad will, one day we learn Poland attacked Germany and was joined by Britain, the latter starting holocaust.
Best wishes