MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Hello all
I have been reading the schiffer book on Hans Joachim Marseille and am now very interested in his last kill, no 158.

The book says that the way Marseille's opponent attacked clearly indicated that he was an expert. The two pilots parralled each other equelly matched. After a long duel Marseille finaly shot down the Spitfire and the pilot did not get out. When he landed the ground crew were horrified to see he looked like a ghost and that his hands were trembeling. He described the spitfire pilot as a masterful adversery.

Just who was this British pilot ? does any one fit the bill ???
Maybe the question has been asked before, but Im a new boy !

Regards
David

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Hi David - this sounds fascinating, what was the date of the combat, I don't have the book.

Andy.

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

..date is 26 September, four vics in the morning, three in the afternoon..Kurowski (author of the Schiffer book) unfortunately doesn't write history ...however in this instance his eulogy closely mirrors the Ring/Girbig account (JG27 P233) and is based on Fritz Dettmann's 1944 book "Mein Freund Marseille"..almost word for word.. Dettmann also describes Marseille's 150th as a Spitfire ace..the hardest combat he'd ever fought..

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Due to Shores's and Ring's "Luftkampf zwischen Sand und Sonne" (German edition of "Fighters over the Desert"), no Allied unit has been identified which would match the German combat report.

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

I am not sure if it is the combat but on the old forum Russell Guest noted it was likely 601 Sqn and suffered no losses.
I think Marseille's abilities are grossly overrated.

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Hi all,

in Walter Wuebbe`s book "Marseille ein Jagdfliegerschicksal in Daten..." Marseilles last air combat took place with eleven Spits V from 145 RAF and 601 RAF. One Spit from 601 RAF was in this combat damaged.
On 03.06.42 Marseille shoot down in space of 11 minutes 4 Tomahawks from 5 SAAF (AK384,AK421,AM401 and AN262) and badly damaged 2 others which belly landed.
So Frank its common ability? I think that this is a example of almost perfect ability. I think that you fisrt of all overate yourself.

Regards

Robert

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Hi Robert,

I thought the SAAF claimed on that date in question they hadn't had any p-40 losses ? I may be wrong.

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Robert, "Luftkampf zwischen Sand und Sonne" shows several similar examples. For instance, Marseille's first combat in the morning of 1 September 1942:

Together with his wingman, Marseille attacked the Hurricanes of 238 and 1 SAAF sqn. He started with 1 SAAF Sqn and shot down two, at 08.26 and 08.28 hours. These were flown by Lt Bailey and Major Metelerkamp (an ace with 5 victories).

Next, Marseille attacked 238 Sqn and shot down F/O Matthews (238 Sqn) at 08.35 hours.

Following this, Marseille and his wingman were attacked by six Spitfires from 601 Sqn. Marseille allowed the Spitfires to approach from behind until the distance was 150 metres. Then he banked sharply to the left, which caused the Spitfires to overshoot him, and attacked from behind - shooting down the Spitfire piloted by P/O Bradley-Smith at 08.39 hours.

When Marseille landed, it was established that he had used 80 cannon shells and 240 machine gun bullets for those four victories. These were Marseille's victories Nos 105 - 108. When the day was over, this total had risen to 121.

Due to "Luftkampf zwischen Sand und Sonne", it seems as though most of Marseille's 17 victories on 1 September 1942 can be verified through Allied sources.

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Most accounts agree that at this time JG 27 was flying at a frenetic pace. Regardless of the accuracy of the claims, all could agree that Marseille was definitely involved in many combats in September 1942, and the sources all point out that he had reached the point of exhaustion. With this in mind, his flying skills would not be at their peak, he would be prone to making mistakes, and an adversary of lesser skill could be construed as an expert...it is all relative.


Don

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Yes Christer I know that. I want to show our "Besserwisser" only one simply example.

Regards

Robert

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

It is a bighead in English. Do I understand correctly that you consider yourself a smallhead?
You should be awared that there were 4 other claims on 3.06.1942 and 10 on 1.09.1942. Having no combat reports of all the airmen engaged I am not certain how can you assume all the losses were inflicted by Marseille. Also, I am not sure if you have any access to casualty reports, so again how do you know exact circumstances of those losses?
Fighters over the Desert is 30+ years old, before many files were declasified. Relying on it is problematic.
H-J Marseille was no doubt above average pilot but most of his successes were achieved in a quite comfortable conditions. With the appearance of Spitfires in the MTO, this period ended, however. End of the Marseille's legend was about to come and it was only his (mis)fortune he was killed in an accident.

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Don, I agree with you. I've heard that Marseille was quite a sensitive person. But we should also take into account the fact that in September 1942, the resistance which JG 27 met in the air had grown considerably stronger than previously. By that time, the Allies had reached a numerical superiority in the air of about three to one. This increased Allied resistance in the air is reflected in I./JG 27's results:

During the period 1 May 1942 - 31 August 1942, I./JG 27 was credited with 203 aerial victories against only four own losses in air combat. (Regarding victory-to loss ratio, the record was reached in 1 May - 30 June 1942 with 129 victories against a single own loss in air combat.)

That result should be compared with the figures for September 1942: 85 victories against 7 losses in air combat.

Andy Mac, due to "Luftkampf zwischen Sand und Sonne", Marseille's victims in the air combat on 3 June 1942 were - all from 5 SAAF Sqn:

Capt. Pare, went down in flames
2/Lt Martin, belly-landed at Bir Hacheim
Capt. Morrison, shot down and wounded
Lt. Muir, shot down and wounded
2/Lt. Golding, shot down and wounded
Capt. Botha, belly-landed

Botha was an ace with 5 victories, three of which were claimed against Ju 87s in the same combat. 2/Lt. Golding and Lt. Muir also were veterans with victories on their scoreboards.

Marseille's victories were attained at 12.22, 12.25, 12.27, 12.28, 12.29, and 12.33 hours. Afterward, his mate Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt wrote in a letter home: "Marseille is able to shoot like a young god. Above all, he is able to do what only few can - to shoot with perfection while turning."

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Franek,

we love you your big head :D.
Three claims of III/JG53 from 03.06.42 were made in the combat over sea just nearby to El Alamein coast area. We could add one claim from II/JG27 to the combat with 5 SAAF but this could not considerable change the facts.


Robert

Re: Aces and overclaiming
 

I have been watching this thread with interest. Frankly I think the predilection with “absolute” numbers in terms of kills is wasteful.



Now that we are able to view large chunks of actual wartime records, I think we all realize there was a lot of overclaiming on all sides. In combat it is a sky full of turning and twisting, snap shots and high Gs. Mistakes are made and what seems so visually certain may not be. Add to that that planes that made it back to base with a high degree of damage, were not these lost to combat for a while? Someone might have claimed these and were they not “lost” for a period? Also, look at one example like the second Schwienfurt raid. In addition to the actual 60 bombers lost, another 30 were so damaged they were scrapped—“lost”. If some of those were from fighter attacks and were claimed by such, how does one justify not giving credit?



Frankly, if Marseille shot down 14 instead of 17 aircraft in one day, or 120 versus 158 in his career, does it really take away from his accomplishments? The same holds true with Sakai, Bong, J E Johnson, etc. They were great pilots, period.

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

I don't post much but I must agree with Mr. Beaman 100%. Both World Wars are full of overclaims but these high scorers still must have outscored the rest, or you would here more complaining by fellow pilots, instead of all the praise.

Robert

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Re: Aces and overclaiming
 

John
The problem is that some people consider German pilots better than Allied ones because of their higher scores and reputed accuracy and were defeated only by an overwhelming enemy. This is not quite true so. Hartmann or Marseille for eg. rarely flew on equal terms with their enemies. They are in a large part a creation of Goebels' propaganda - please note there are almost no debates on Allied aces here!
Robert
I admit on the list I have checked, JG53 claims were without place but at the same time as JG27. I will check Prien for details. Anyway, you are forgetting about one important participant - Reggia Aeronautica. I do not have their claims, do you?

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Sorry my fault, but I have mistaken the 03.06 with 03.07 - so the III/JG53 were made in the same area. We should add also another losses of RAF e.g. one a/c from 112 RAF. None RA claims in this time and area.

Robert

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

In a pause in my intense work on the manuscript to the book on Walter Schuck:

Quote:

Author Christer Bergström post (No. 8) indicates that “Due to "Luftkampf zwischen Sand und Sonne", it seems as though most of Marseille's 17 victories on 1 September 1942 can be verified through Allied sources.” Great! How many –including shot up and crash landings- can be verified and can anyone post a complete breadown (Unit - pilot –aircraft- damage) for Marseille’s greatest day.

Well aware of the sad fact that anyone who posts anything here runs the risk of having both what is written and what is not written scrutinised to a ridiculous amount, I take the fresh liberty to give an answer to Rob Romero - although it means that I will have to outrageously refer to what is written in a 30-year old book. I take this brazen liberty out of two reasons:
a) I like to share what I know with my friends who share this interest, among them Rob Romero;
b) I don't think there is any better published source than this 30-year old book (at least I don't have access to anything better on the topic, but maybe someone else with better knowledge has):


In their book ”Luftkampf zwischen Sand und Sonne” ("Fighters Over the Desert"), historians and researchers Christopher Shores and Hans Ring have made a painstaking investigation of what occurred on that day. By investigating archives of both sides, they arrive at the following conclusion:
Marseille's first mission that day:
4 enemy fighters claimed shot down (at 0926, 0928, 0935, and 0938 hrs) with 80 cannon shells and 240 machine-gun rounds.
According to Shores/Ring, these were the pilots in the aircraft which Marseille claimed shot down: Lt Bailey (1 SAAF sqn) force-landed his Hurricane; Maj Metelerkamp (1 SAAF sqn) was injured and had his Hurricane badly shot up; F/O Matthews (238 sqn) had his Hurricane shot down; P/O Bradley-Smith (601 sqn) had his Spitfire shot down.

Marseille's second mission that day:
8 enemy fighters ("P-40s") claimed shot down( at 1155, 1156, 1158, 1159, 1201, 1202, 1203, and 1205 hrs). In addition to Marseille's claims, Lt Remmer claimed one P-40 on the same mission.
According to Shores/Ring, six British fighters were shot down during an escort mission for bombers.

Marseille's third mission that day:
5 enemy fighters claimed shot down (at 1847, 1848, 1849, 1850, and 1853 hrs). In addition to Marseille's claims, four enemy fighters were claimed shot down by other German pilots on the same mission.
According to Shores/Ring, five Hurricanes of 213 sqn and one Hurricane of 208 sqn that were shot down approximately at the same time probably are identical with at least some of the German claims on that mission.

Shores and Ring list a number of additional Allied fighters lost in combat in Egypt on 1 September 1942 - although it has not been possible to verify the exact time (hour & minute):

Sgt. Sowerby, 3 RAAF sqn, was shot down
5 SAAF sqn had four of its fighters shot down
2 SAAF sqn and 64 U.S. sqn lost three P-40s on one mission
According to Shores/Ring, some of these (at least one of 5 SAAF sqn's losses) are among the six fighters which were shot down when they escorted bombers and - probably - were encountered by Marseille on his second mission on 1 September 1942.

Due to Shores/Ring, the official Allied losses in North Africa on 1 September 1942 amount to 22 aircraft (9 Hurricanes, 4 Kittyhawks, 4 Tomahawks, 2 Spitfires, 1 U.S. Warhawk, and 2 Beaufighters).

Apart from Marseille’s 17 claims, the following number of claims were made by German fighter units in North Africa on 1 September 1942:

Stab/JG 27: 0

I./JG 27: 5

II./JG 27: 3

III./JG 27: 1

JG 53 made no claims in North Africa on 1 September 1942.

All of this indicates that Marseille in reality shot down 10 - 15 fighters on this single day. In fact, only one of the 17 aircraft that he claimed as shot down can be proved to have landed fairly safely - the badly shot down Hurricane which was piloted by five-victory ace Major Metelerkamp.

Should this post by me lead to another outburst of mudslinging as we have seen previously, I can assure you that I will again withdraw from this forum.

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Hello All
I think we may be going a bit off topic here. I only used the number to try and reference the kill I was interested in. Next time I will just say his last claimed kill ! I am not debating weather his 158 kills are valid, I am interested in who this last pilot was.

There can only be a certain number of allied air craft shotdown on that day. So one of those pilots has to be his last kill if the aircraft did indeed go down.

If the pilot did get back to base, i would think that he would of written some thing about a dogfight that lasted that long.

Regards
David

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Christer thank you for your thorough, comprehensive, well researched and fantastic reply –I’m sure this data will be chrished by many!



Thank you and all the contributors to TOCH once again!!!

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Thanks, Rob. But as I said - it wasn't from me; it was from Shores's and Ring's book, which, to my knowledge, remains the most reliable printed source on that specific topic. I am not specialised in the North African air war, so I have to use what is already printed on the subject, like everyone apart from about a dozen people or so in this world.

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

But in the history of 112 Sqn cause of the loss is not specified and it may have been well due to Flak. Concerning RA, I am not awared of complete and reliable listings of claims and losses, so how can you be so sure, they were not involved?
You draw your conclusions from fragmentary info. I am wondering why you cannot understand that.

Re: Aces and overclaiming
 

[quote=Franek Grabowski]John
The problem is that some people consider German pilots better than Allied ones because of their higher scores and reputed accuracy and were defeated only by an overwhelming enemy. This is not quite true so. Hartmann or Marseille for eg. rarely flew on equal terms with their enemies. They are in a large part a creation of Goebels' propaganda - please note there are almost no debates on Allied aces here!
]

Hi Franek:



I agree that people are all “hung up” on the high numbers Luftwaffe pilots’ claims and therefore consider them superior to Allied pilots. There were, no doubt, some very talented pilots/marksmen in the Luftwaffe just as in other air forces. Luftwaffe pilots had several advantages to run up scores:

• They had superior equipment in many circumstances (early war and early Barbarossa, and early Africa).
• They were operating from a tactics/mission advantage (superior height when on a mission versus defenders).
• Early in Barbarossa, their experience level was vastly superior to the average VVS pilot with resulting losses for the USSR. Look what happened to the Luftwaffe later when their experience levels dropped in 1944/45.
• They often flew multiple missions more than RAF or USAAF in a day which translates as opportunity.
• When on the defensive after 1942, if they survived parachuting out, they were over their own territory when Allied pilots were most likely captured if shot down during their offensive missions. Look at Hartmann: wasn’t he shot down 17 times (and was lucky to escape being a POW 2 or 3 times)?
• Opportunity is a huge factor in “acedom”. Those that were skilled and survived flew a lot of missions accumulated big scores. Hartmann’s mission/encounter/score ratio is about 24%, and George Preddy’s is about 25%, and I bet other “aces” were similar, although there certainly exceptions. However Preddy flew only about 10% of the number of missions Hartmann did. Once, when talking to Steve Ritchie, we were discussing this opportunity issue and I asked him: “If you had flew 1000 missions over North Vietnam, did not get captured if shot down, (or otherwise killed) and encountered MiGs about 30% of the time, how many kills would you have?” He enthusiastically replied, “A ton!”.

I think that rather than try to denigrate any one particular air force’s “aces” or claiming/credits in a nasty manner, it would be more profitable to study the records that are now and emerging (particularly the former USSR) to establish losses, claims etc., then trade information for the benefit of us all.


As for "debate on Allied Aces", there has been: witness the debate regarding Pattle who is often listed as the RAF's top ace when the legitimate documentation is almost nil.

Re: Aces and overclaiming
 

John

Yes, indeed and those were discussed a lot of times.

This resulted from better equipment at some areas and periods.

OK, so we have Hartmann 24% efficient and Preddy - 25%. We know that the Red AF suffered both from equipment and personnel troubles and was not as though opponent as Western AFs were. Now, there is a question - was the Preddy's score so good because the Luftwaffe was for him as poor as the Red AF for Hartmann, or was Hartmann such a poor pilot that he was unable to achieve any better ratio?

Well, this the task of Russian researchers, who have access to their archives. I know this is being done slowly but gradually. I am afraid those poor boys will be hated by both Soviet and German lovers when their works are published.
My point that we do not know enough on the Western Front. Interestingly, several historians draw quite advanced conclusions having not enough sources for them. Accuracy of the German scores - yes, please, but nobody went through every air combat to prove it. Overwhelming advantage of Allies - of course, but show it in actual combats. I do not believe Galland, he just only tries to hide his errors and incompetence. Many other German pilots do so as well.
The problem with Marseille is that his achievements were not so outstanding when he had no technical advantage. Most of his successes were achieved against Hurricanes, Tomahawks and Kittyhawks - decent aircraft but with too poor altitude performance to fight Me 109F efficiently. Spitfires appeared - problems started. Do you think 601 Sqn was the best unit in the RAF? Stanisław Skalski led the unit in 1943 and I have some comments of the pilots of the unit to put it in the proper perspective.

John, I bet you are kidding. One discussion about one ace. Was he the only one Allied ace?

Best wishes

Re: Aces and overclaiming
 

good to know, you have no prejudices.
who are these soviet lovers, and who these german lovers ?
are there polish lovers too ? :)

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

John, speaking about Preddy and technical superiority:

Weren't the P-51 types in service in Europe about as superior in speed to the German Bf 109 G-6 as the German Bf 109 F-2 and F-4 were against some of the most common Soviet fighter types in 1941-42?

If you look at the standard of the average German fighter pilot on the Western Front during the second half of 1944, you can see that the victories achieved by the Western Allied fighter pilots from the summer of 1944 and onward were increasingly "easy". During the major air battles between the 8th AAF and the Luftwaffe in November 1944, US fighters shot down an average of about ten German fighters for each own loss in air combat. That indicates quite an inequality between the two sides, which also can be translated into "easy Western Allied victories".

See:

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/nov44.htm

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Hello All
Regarding the German Pilots getting high scores due to the poor aircraft they met early one. I can understand this and would agree that some pilots would of gained high scores at this time. However, not all the high scoreres were around at this time. For example Hartmann and Lipfert did not get to the front until 1943.

I would also agree that the best German fighter pilots were not better that the best Allied pilots. I agree with the sentiment that German pilots had more oportunity for combat.

At the beggining of the war the German pilots would of been more experienced in combat than the allied pilots. But I would of thougt that the pilots leaving the training schools were about the same. During the BoB the new British Fighter pilots (10 hours on fighters) would of been cannon fodder, but by being there they drew the Germans off the better pilots.

Latter in the war, German pilots could not be trained well for lack of fuel and mustangs roaming over Germany. The allies could train up their pilots in safty and put them into combat with a lot more flying experience. Therefore, not only were there more allied pilots, but avarage allied pilot was better trained than the German Pilot he was likly to meet.

However, I would not say pilots like Marselle were over rated because they fought with loaded dice, so to speak. I think it is all part of being a good fighter pilot, getting into a position where you are pretty certain that you will make the kill and survive.

If i was to draw a comparison, I would say that Marselle and George Beurling seem to have the same ability when it comes to shooting. They seem to of got the art of defection shooting right. Both these pilots also seem to of got into dog fights as oposed to ambushing their victims from above. Their ability to defection shoot ment that the dogfight normally did not last long

David

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

That would mean that after around 100 combat missions,* any fighter pilot stops developing his skills.

Well, that is not what I have heard from the fighter pilots themselves. Alfred Grislawski, whom I had the fortune of coming to know fairly well, said that by the time he flew over Normandy (when he had logged almost 800 combat missions), he was very much better than three years earlier, when he had flown "only" about 150 combat missions. (I specifically asked him that question.) In Grislawski's opinion, you had to fly at least 50 combat missions before you could get a grip of the whole air combat situation. But that of course was with the perspective of a man who flew over 800 combat missions. Grislawski said that when he flew over Normandy, he felt that he was immensely superior to any Allied pilot which he encountered; his experience had learned him to predict whcih his enemy's next maneuver would be. He noticed that any Allied pilot which he encountered was inferior to him in air combat.

Of course there is nothing which says that a man who has flown 800 combat missions has to be better than anyone who has flown only 100 combat missions. But you can compare one man with himself. And experience tells us that skill will increase with practise, in most fields of human activity. Since the pilots themselves tell us that too, I think that weighs more than the idea of a modern-generation guy that "all aces were equally good, regardless of experience".

Of course there are other factors, but assuming that none of these other factors supported any of the warring sides more than the other sides when we take the war as a whole, I think that we still end up with experience and practise as a very decisive factor.

This has nothing to do with nationality. I would assume that if e.g. Robert S. Johnson had flown ten times more combat missions than he actually did, he would have developed his combat skills even more. I don't think that there is anyone who has nothing more to learn in such a complex field. Another German pilot, Walter Schuck, told me that all the time he learned new things in air combat.


* George Preddy's 143rd combat mission was his last combat mission. Other top US aces stopped flying combat missions after about that number of missions. For instance, Gabreski left combat after 153 combat missions, and Robert S. Johnson flew no more than 91 combat missions. I am quite sure that Grislawski is right: If these men would have flown - and survived! - 800 combat missions, at least some of them probably would have become even better.

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Hello
I understand where you are comming from. However, I would of thougt that combat fategue would start to arode the advantage of greater combat experence.

I read some where that only one USAAF 8th airforce pilot, with over 15 kills, was lost in air to air combat. This was Ralph Hofer. A lot of the German high scorers were lost in air to air combat against pilots who did not have the same combat hours as them.

I admit that some of these aces would of been shotdown by planes they did not even see, so no real duel would of taken place. However some of the pilots did have running battles and they lost.

I supose that if your plane is supirior and you are a good flyer, this may out weigh the more experienced pilot in a lesser plane.

Regards
David

Re: Aces and overclaiming
 

;P
Of course, and US ones and British ones and worsest, French ones. ;>

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Up until the end of the war Soviet aircraft were inferior to the German ones. This is a long living myth of Soviet propaganda that their aircraft were any good.

I would also agree that the best German fighter pilots were not better that the best Allied pilots. I agree with the sentiment that German pilots had more oportunity for combat.

Quality of pilots varied depending on training system. Germans lost, among other reasons, due to their poor training system. Also, I would like to see a log book of a RAF pilot with 10 or so hours on fighters before being send to a fighting unit. I indeed saw some, but pilots were then send to Scotland, Ireland or Wales to gain some 50 hours of flying time.

Not exactly. Up until Normandy pilots could have been trained in safety but it was at the time it turned out the training was not proper. Germans were unable to fly and fight in large formations and had a lot of problems with blind flying. It is well worth to read interrogation reports of pilots downed at the time.

He could choose terms of combat and this was a substantial advantage. As long as he flew 'by the book', he was safe.

I cannot tell about Beurling but I understand in case of Marseille it was a matter of surprisingly getting really close, so with limited deflection shooting.

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

[quote=david Cotton]Hello
I understand where you are comming from. However, I would of thougt that combat fategue would start to arode the advantage of greater combat experence.

According to recent research, Kid was downed by Flak when straffing an airfield. Anyway, be careful with your statement. I do not know how many missions Hoffer flew and what was the time but if Preddy had some 150 missions, I suppose this would be from 450 to 750 hrs of combat flying. Having in mind that the sorties of the German aces were much shorter than 5 hrs trips to Germany, possibly an average of 45 min., those 1000 sorties will result with some 750 hrs of combat flying.

Well, having eyes around the head is a principle. But indeed a lot of pilots were downed in more less ordinary dog-fights.

Well, the technical difference must be quite substantial, otherwise experienced pilot should be able not to get downed but, of course his chances of achieving success are much smaller.

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Speaking about people being overrated. . .

I think Gollob is quite overrated.





I mean the Polish Gollob. In my hometown Eskilstuna, yesterday 2 August. See:

http://www.speedwayworld.tv/en/swc/a4872

;)

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

I thought "Besserwisser" could be translated as "know it all." It's an interesting thread.

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Hello

Thanks for reading my post in detail. Your opinions certainly gave me much to consider.



Regarding Soviet aircraft quality. I think the YAK 3 and YAK9 could be considered competitive. They certainly narrowed the difference in performance that had existed around 1941 and 1942.



Regarding BoB pilots. A pilot with 50 hours would still be more hunted than hunter. I don’t think the Germans were having to commit low trained fighter pilots into the battle. However, I may be wrong there. I will pop up Hawking museum and have a chat with the guys up there as well.



Regarding German Pilot training. Were they really trained that bad? I mean Hartmen, limpfert , Knoke were all products of the war time training. JG26 and JG2 held the RAF in check until the USAAF came on the scene. Was the lack of instrument and night flying really that critical ?



I would agree that there was safe ( as it could be) for the Germans up till January 1944 ish. It must have been a surprise to find allied fighters in what you would of thought was a safe area. Allied fighters could fly from the western front to the eastern front.



However, I think you are right, this would of only really had a real effect once allied fighters were reaming over all German territory. By then the war was already lost.



I would surmise that it was simply to few pilots being trained. The numbers were probably just adequate until the USSAF joined the battle.



Regarding Marselle tactics. I did not think that he was renown for getting up close for the no deflection shot. There is a lot of risk from flying debris when you come in close from behind. I think this was a Hartman tactic and he got downed a few times from debris if I remember right. I still of the opinion that Marselle was deadly because of his deflection shooting.



Regarding Hofer. If he did get shot down by flack, then that makes non of the top aces in the Eighth lost in air to air combat.



Regarding Different planes. I am thinking on the lines of say Preddy v Hartmann. Preddy may not have the same combat hours but the mustang would of given him an edge that may have equalled the fight.



Regards

David

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Hello

Yak-3, often considered the best of the breed, when tested post-war in Yugoslavia, was found to be more-less equal to Spitfire V trop. Not a great achievement for a 1944 aircraft, I think.

It was the effect of the RAF expansion. Germans were prepared to a war and trained enough people for the start. I am not sure of flight time though.

Please, note that German pilots underwent through additional training at the unit, whil Allied pilots arrived there as a competent personnel. This makes the difference.
Also, it was not so one sided combat before the arrival of the Americans but the subject needs some further research.
Finally, instrument training was critical during the Normandy campaign. Weather was very poor and several airmen failed to find their airfields, not to mention targets! This resulted with serious losses without enemy action. The risk was further increased, because they were unable to keep formation and got dispersed, this resulting with more losses.

That was also a problem. Actually, there were less of worser airmen trained, so this must led to catastrophe.

Perhaps I have confused something. Anyway, German airmen were not thaught of deflection shooting!

Yes, it looks so but it seems nothing that extraordinary.

On of the Polish aces said, that wins the pilot with a stronger will. Hartmann was downed by P-51s but I do not think quality of the latter was crucial.

Best wishes

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Hello



Regarding Quality of YAK3. I am surprised that the YAK3 only performed as per Spitfire V trop . I have read, in a book by Bill Gunston, that the Luftwaffe issued a general directive to avoid combat below 5000M with the YAK3. I think that most Russian front combat was at low level, as it was a primarily a ground attack air force.



I have the YAK3 with a top speed of 404 MPH and later 447MPH, which is not bad. I do not have any stats on speeds at heights. It would be interesting to see how the YAK 3 performance compared with its opponents at low levels.



Regarding Pilot Training. Yes I remember reading that often Bomber Pilots were used to guide German Fighters to the target. However, I always thought this was very late in the war. I assume that instrument training was initially given and then was stopped at some point. When was this ?

The reason I think it was initially given, is because I have read German fighter pilot report where the pilot talks of using instruments in bad weather. One of these was a report by Marselle.



Regarding the one sided combat before the arrival of America. Agreed. However, the JG2 and JG26 seemed to be able to cope with the British. I have read that post was research has indicated a kill ratio of 3:1 in favour of the Germans. This was once the British went onto the offensive. On the Dieppe raid the Germans still managed to inflict a 2:1 kill ratio in their favour. I still think that only once the USA got up and running the Germans started to loose the numbers game with regard to replacement pilots.



Regarding Deflection Shooting. Marselle’s early combat career was not that good. However, he seemed to understand where he was deficient and worked on those area. It would seem that defection shooting in Marselles case was self taught.



Regarding P51. I am not sure If I agree here. The better performance allows an expert pilot to have more options. Adversely, a lower performance must reduce the number of tactics he can use. For me the P51 was the plane that destroyed the Luftwaffe in the west.



Regarding Hofer. I find it interesting that the German Airforce did not shoot down any of the renown Eigth Airforce aces. Maybe it was because the German Pilots were trying to get to the bombers and were more interested in avoiding the escort.



I have also read that the Luftwaffe tactic of waiting for the fighters to turn back allowed Allied Fighter Pilots to gain experience. If they had hit the bombers early and taken on the fighter escort the fledgling pilots may never had the chance to get good.



Nice talking with you

David

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Hello

Soviets had no aircraft able to efficiently fly higher than 5-6000m, hence German successes and low level combats. The mentioned directive remains a kind of a myth - nobody seen it but a lot of people mention it. It seems that it was ordinary tactical instruction suggesting to avoid dog-fight but not combat, however.

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I have the YAK3 with a top speed of 404 MPH and later 447MPH, which is not bad. I do not have any stats on speeds at heights. It would be interesting to see how the YAK 3 performance compared with its opponents at low levels.

Speed curves for low level (first stage of supercharger) are quite similar for Spitfire V, Spitfire IX, Me 109G or Yak-3. Speed is not the only parameter though. Soviet aircraft lacked range, automatics, good radio, sometimes armament. Some researchers, willingly or not, do unfair comparisons of Soviet aircraft with limited load with western aircraft with full load - be awared. It is worth to note here that Soviet report on combat with P-38s in the late 1944 mentions Yak-9s were less manouverable than P-38s in dog fight but superior in vertical manouvers.

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Regarding Pilot Training. Yes I remember reading that often Bomber Pilots were used to guide German Fighters to the target. However, I always thought this was very late in the war. I assume that instrument training was initially given and then was stopped at some point. When was this ?

Well, yes, later in the war but the problem appeared earlier than the sollution.

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The reason I think it was initially given, is because I have read German fighter pilot report where the pilot talks of using instruments in bad weather. One of these was a report by Marselle.

I have not seen any such report.

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Regarding the one sided combat before the arrival of America. Agreed. However, the JG2 and JG26 seemed to be able to cope with the British. I have read that post was research has indicated a kill ratio of 3:1 in favour of the Germans. This was once the British went onto the offensive. On the Dieppe raid the Germans still managed to inflict a 2:1 kill ratio in their favour. I still think that only once the USA got up and running the Germans started to loose the numbers game with regard to replacement pilots.

I think British offensive is a subject to be researched, together with involved ratios. Also the reason of German loss is a little more complicated than the US presence only.

Quote:

Regarding Deflection Shooting. Marselle’s early combat career was not that good. However, he seemed to understand where he was deficient and worked on those area. It would seem that defection shooting in Marselles case was self taught.

I do not know.

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Regarding P51. I am not sure If I agree here. The better performance allows an expert pilot to have more options. Adversely, a lower performance must reduce the number of tactics he can use. For me the P51 was the plane that destroyed the Luftwaffe in the west.

Yes, but it was primarily due to its superior range allowing to patrol over enemy airfields.

Quote:

Regarding Hofer. I find it interesting that the German Airforce did not shoot down any of the renown Eigth Airforce aces. Maybe it was because the German Pilots were trying to get to the bombers and were more interested in avoiding the escort.

Or because many of them build their victory scores when the Luftwaffe was no threat anymore.

Quote:

I have also read that the Luftwaffe tactic of waiting for the fighters to turn back allowed Allied Fighter Pilots to gain experience. If they had hit the bombers early and taken on the fighter escort the fledgling pilots may never had the chance to get good.

On the other hand Allies would inflict losses on the Germans - that was the reason they waited.

Best wishes

Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
 

Two things:

1. In all the excitement, did anyone ever actually come up with an answer to the original question in this thread?

2. The discussions about skill and experience seemed to be passing over combat fatigue/stress. People can only take so much. For very good reasons, the RAF and USAAF flew operational tours; the Luftwaffe kept people in action until death, injury or promotion supervened. Read Robert Forsyth's "JV 44, The Galland Circus" and you come away with the feeling that some of the "greats" were burned out by 1945.