II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

This one is for the Ostfront Experten out there. I have a Flugbuch entry stating that on 20 Mar 1945 II./JG 52 (or at least the 5. Staffel) intercepted 15th AF B-17s and P-51s while up from Veszprém 1345-1425 hours. Does anyone have more information? Claims? Losses?

Horrido!

Don

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Hi Don,

possibly JG 52 book will have some data in it.
as for the USAAF, U probably have it...but:

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria, 760+ B-17s and B-24s, with fighter escort, hit the Korneuburg and Kagran oil refineries, the marshalling yards at Wels, Sankt Polten, Amstetten, Wiener-Neustadt, and Klagenfurt, and the tank works at Steyr. Routine supply, reconnaissance, and escort missions continue. The 885th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 2641st Special Group, moves from Brindisi to Rosignano, Italy with B-17s and B-24s (the squadron transports supplies to partisans and drops leaflets).

details on losses of 15.USAAF
20.03.1945 43-7068 P51B 13126 15 332FG
N. Golden Waldneukirchen, AU

20.03.1945 44-6421 B17G 13052 15 463BG 772BS S. Ark Wien, AU

20.03.1945 44-6377 B17G 13050 15 463BG 772.BS J. Lincoln Kocevje, YU mech. failure "Pretty Baby´s Boys"

20.03.1945 44-6422 B17G 13048 15 483BG 816.BS Kessler HU, Zombor

20.03.1945 43-38418 B17G 13054 15 99BG 348.BS R. Urban nr. Krizevci, YU flak "Glittering Gal"

hope it helps a bit ;)

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Thanks, Peter, but I have nothing identifying any of these losses with II./JG 52. Specifically, the Mustang went down owing to mechanical failure. I definitely need info from the German side. Unfortunately I don't have any of the various JG 52 books.

Don

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Hi Don,
I don't know if you have seen this site - a loss list for JG52 and also Bodenplatte

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/Verlus..._vl_chrono.htm

I hope it opens OK

Cheers
Bruce Lander

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Don,

Per Barbas, Lt. Duttmann claimed a P-51 10km WSW Veszprem at 1405, Uffz. Kellmayer an La-5 abt 1400 Veszprem.

No losses noted

Don

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Bruce -- Thanks for pointing out the Denkmal site, which was new to me and has now been bookmarked. According to this source, JG 52 suffered no casualties on 20 Mar 45.

Don -- The Barbas source was one I hoped someone would open up for me. I believe Duttmann did not file his claim for lack of a witness. The only P-51 lost was the one Peter noted. The 332nd FG UH states that it was due to engine failure. A sneak attack is possible, of course, but no e/a were noted by the rest of the flight. I haven't a clue as to the La-7 identity, which (fortunately) is outside my scope. The 325th FG claimed 1-1-0 Bf 109 & 1-1-0 Fw 190 near Lake Balaton at about the right time, so the loss of a JG 52 Messerschmitt (pilot OK) can't be ruled out.

Thanks again for the help.

Don

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Newman C. Golden, Flt. Officer, T64636, in case he was shot down :)
No info in 332.FG book "Black Knights"

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Hi Peter --

Chris Bucholtz's 332nd FG UH in the Osprey "Aviation Elite Units" series has the story of Golden's last mission -- it was engine failure, after a flight with no enemy contact. (BTW, Bucholtz's 128-page book is one of the best of the Ospreys, which as we all know owe everything to the quality of what is submitted to them. It's well-balanced, with little of the political correctness that infests much modern writing WRT the Tuskegee Airmen.)

Don

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Hi Don,
I checked several publications and found some details in the following:
- Fast "JG 52, vol. IV"
- Barbas "Die Geschichte der II. Gruppe des Jagdgeschwaders 52"
- Düttmann "Wir kämpften in einsamen Höhen"

According to these sources, II./JG 52 didn't have suffer any losses or make any claims in that action. None of the books contained a description of any such encounter either.

Interestingly, Düttmann says in his bio that during the 1980's he discovered that his Flugbuch entries for March 18th and March 20th 1945 were reversed, so his unconfirmed P-51 kill actually took place on the 18th.

According to Fast, there were two JG 52 losses due to enemy action on March 20th, both in III. Gruppe:
- 109G-14, WNr 464158, Uffz. Karlheinz Jüttner, vermißt, FF, gefallen
- 109G-14, WNr 510804, Bielau, absturz nach LK, FF, unverletzt

Hope that helps,
Leon Venter

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Hi Leon --

Well, isn't this a fine kettle of fish! Düttmann's Flugbuch entry for 20 Mar 45 states, "Luftkampf mit 7 B-17s + 8 P-51s - Abschuß 1 P-51". His bio (which I don't have) says that this entry belongs on 18 Mar. The 15th FC flew a freie Jagd on the 18th, and attacked rail lines & airfields in Austria, Hungary, & Yugoslavia. The 325th FG lost 3 P-51s -- I haven't had a chance to research these. But the 15th AF bombers did not fly! So where does the FB entry belong, if anywhere? Would you mind checking his bio and posting all of the information he has for the mission of "18 Mar"?

The III./JG 52 losses were probably attributable to the VVS or AA. AFAIK only the Second Gruppe was at Veszprém and in place to intercept raids on Austria.

Thanks, Leon. Gosh, research is fun!

Don

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Hi Don,
I've attempted to attach scans of the 3 relevant pages (around 140KB each), but I get an "Unable to move/copy file" error each time. Please send me your email address via PM, and I'll mail them to you.


After reading it again, Düttmann's statement on page 194:

"...habe ich gemerkt, dass das in meinem Flug- und Leistungsbuch genau falsch herum eingetragen ist: Die Mustang war am 18. und die Jak zwei Tage später!"

is ambiguous -- is he referring to the log book entry as it was written or as it should have been written?

Indeed! Please let us know what you make of this puzzle.

Regards,
Leon Venter

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Many thanks, Leon, for sending me the 3 pages from Düttmann's memoir. My objective in starting this thread was to ferret out data on the Luftwaffe's encounter with 15th Air Force B-17s on 20 Mar 45. I knew from the INTOPs that Bf 109s were sighted. Four B-17s were lost. I've since gotten their MACRs, and the four went down from Flak damage and engine failure -- there's no mention in the MACRs of any e/a. My only indication that II./JG 52 was involved is Düttmann's Flugbuch. But D. claimed in his memoir that 20 Mar was a bad date.

Düttmann concludes that his 20 Mar P-51 combat should be the 18th because Pitt Esser's was definitely on the 18th -- he met the American pilot postwar, got a copy of his records, etc. I'm OK with that, except that D's FB entry mentions an LK with "7 Fortresses und 8 Mustangs", and there was no bombing mission to Austria by the 15th AF on the 18th (some kind of special op can't be ruled out, but 7 would be a peculiar number.) However, his memoir doesn't mention B-17s, only a Schwarm of Mustangs. So was his real-time entry correct, or his very late post-war "prompted" memory? Or neither?

The 15th FC lost only one P-51 on the 20th, the 332nd FG bird already dismissed on TOCH. The 325th FG did lose 3 on the 18th, a major strafing mission to Austria. Two were lost to Flak, but the pilot of the third reported he was in good shape when he disappeared from the formation, and could well have been the pilot shot down by Esser. However, as this was on the 18th, it doesn't address my original question -- did II./JG 52 intercept 15th AF B-17s on 20 Mar? Neither side filed any claims or sustained any losses compatible with such a combat. The UHs of the four 15th AF P-51 groups mention no LKs with Bf 109s on either the 18th or the 20th. I'm forced to conclude that any encounter on the 20th was minor. A shame...

Don

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Don,
Since the Russians were so close and the number of bombers is so small it might be a misidentification. The Russian ADD had 4 engine bombers and I believe flew some daylight missions. A nine bomber formation could be about the right size. Check with Nikita Egorov about the possibility.
Michael

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

I was going to suggest the same. VVS also used American made, or in license made aircraft. And Yaks could well look like Mustang from far distance...
I would bet on Russians being spotted...

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Hi Michael & Peter --

VVS bombers flying in daylight is indeed an intriguing possibility for either 18 March or 20 March. I don't know how good Duettmann's recognition abilities were. Unfortunately the scope of my present study is limited to Luftwaffe day fighter efforts against USAAF heavy bombers, so I won't be able to follow this one up farther.

-- Don

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

In 18.March III.jg52 reported only one loss, I mean known to me , but on 20.March a lot of more 5 or 6 , 2 pilots dead Jüttner+Gawel , ge Voek wounded.

Remi

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Hi Remi --

II./JG 52 combats on 20 March (1945) are what I am interested in. Can you give me more details on the 2 KIA and 1 WIA?

I've decided that Düttmann's changing his 20 Mar combat to 18 Mar is a "prompted memory" because his buddy's claim for the 18th is bolstered by his victim's documents. But 20 Mar matches Düttmann's FB entry better; it's just that his P-51 claim, which wasn't filed (for good reason) doesn't match a USAAF loss. However, the bombers definitely encountered LW fighters, which I haven't otherwise been able to identify.

Thanks for all your help.

Don

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Nothing for II.JG52, Just III +10.+2. JG52 are concerned, for that period we hv part of german returns + LF6 losses none show losses for the II.JG52, for the period from 12 to 22. march just 3 for that group are listed 2 on 13. 1 on 16.

Remi

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Thanks Remi --

I've concluded that some II./JG 52 fighters did make passes on 15th AF bombers on 20 Mar 45, without claims or losses; flight times as in Düttmann's FB. This is worth noting because the sighting of LW fighters by 15th AF bombers in this theater at this stage of the war was extremely rare.

Don

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Think 7.JG52 was II. group at the time In Wirtgens log, noted Frontflug Start Hörsching 09h30 O.F. to understand as Ohne Feindberührung, Landing 10h30

Remi

Re: II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945
 

Sorry that's concern 20.April , he didn't flew from 28.Febr. to 28.March

Remi