RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

As you can see, 8th Fighter Command is my speciality and having helped so many others out, I'm afraid that it is now my turn to seek assistance from my RAF specialist colleagues.

I am very interested in finding out as much as I can about an incident that occurred on 21 March 1944. It seems that an RAF aircraft (I’m told that a “bomber” came down in flames) crashed at Wimborne Road, Moordown, Bournemouth. I am also told that it was on an authorised non-operational flight and the crash was not caused by enemy action. I know that at least one civilian was killed on the ground at No 1027 Wimborne Road.

Can anyone please help me find more information concerning this loss. I am particularly interested in finding details of the aircraft involved, total of casualties of both crew and civilians, and any names that could be added would be a welcome bonus. I assume that the local press would have reported the incident and no doubt the local beat Bobby would have written it up. I would be extremely grateful for any details at all that will help me add to my knowledge concerning this incident

Many thanks in anticipation.


Peter

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

The aircraft was Halifax JP137 of 1865 HCU. There's is quite a good description here:

http://www.wintonforum.co.uk/halifax.html

A

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

It's been reported on the Halifax forum as being a Ferry flight by 301 F.T.U / O.A.D.U to the Med. On 22nd March JP107 took off on a similar flight, landing at Celone near Foggia and 614 Sqdn, so JP137 could have been doing the same.

Most RAF crew were buried near their homes. McGregor being RCAF was buried at Brookwood Military cemetery. There are a number of other RAAF etc casualties, none allocated a Squadron, that may have been aboard, but all previous evidence has only come up with a 5 man crew. Was that usual for long distance ferry flights?
Can anyone provide details about :-
Name: GREEN, KENNETH
Initials: K
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Sergeant (Air Gnr.)
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Age: 20
Date of Death: 21/03/1944
Service No: 1674977
Additional information: Son of Walter Henry and Jane Ellen Green, of Hull.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Compt. 227. Grave 24.
Cemetery: HULL NORTHERN CEMETERY

Some reports talk of 7 crew, others of 3 civilian deaths

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Gentlemen, I can't thank you enough. The URL gave exactly the information that I was looking for. I was searching on behalf of a very dear friend whose relative was in fact Mr Chislett, one of the deceased civilians. I knew that I could rely on this forum to provide the necessary information. The members here can always be relied upon and are to be commended for their public spirited attitude.

Peter

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Can only find 2 Civilian deaths ...

DOROTHEA BENNETT - http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_...sualty=3110980
PERCY FREDERICK CHISLETT - http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_...sualty=3110998

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Many thanks for looking Paul. Much appreciated.

Peter

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Gents,
Have on file that - besides the two civilians - also six crewmembers were killed. Take off 00.30 hrs and crashed 3 minutes later Wimbourne Road, Moordown, Bournemouth Borough. I've two names on file:
Sgt (Pilot) Denis P. EVANS - 132338, and
Sgt (Ag) Reginald R. McGREGOR - RCAF R/197660.
If found the place of their death registration the names of the remaining four may have been taken from the following list of airmen for this date unaccounted for in my files (besides GREEN already mentioned) in alphabetical order:
Sgt (WOp) George A. ALEXANDER - 1099966;
F/O (Bombaimer) Stanley A. APPLETON - 152127;
Sgt (Flt Eng) Stanley F. GENT - 1333177;
Cpl Alexander J.J. KENT - 1103917;
Sgt (Nav) Henry W. ROBERTS - 1585160;
S/Ldr Lloyd M. TIMMINS - 22126, and
Cpl Walter WOOD - 1512079.

Regards,
Henk.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Henk, I also think there should be six crew members but the link only refers to 5, namely Appleton (bomb aimer), Evans (pilot), Gent (Flt Engr) (similar names to local residents), McGregor and Alexander (W/Op/ Gunner).
Of the rest on your list, I assumed the Corporals not to be aircrew.
I also felt a Sqdn Leader would merit mention, as none, therefore excluded Timmins.
Therefore I was a Navigator and a gunner short.
Green seemed a possible for the gunner, but I didn't know Roberts was a Navigator
Name: ROBERTS, HENRY WILLIAM
Initials: H W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Sergeant
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Age: 37
Date of Death: 21/03/1944
Service No: 1585160
Additional information: Son of William and Sarah Roberts; husband of Eleanor May Roberts, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 20. C. 13.
Cemetery: BROOKWOOD MILITARY CEMETERY.
I had assumed (!) that Roberts had died in hospital possibly from a different incident, as the rest of the crew had been buried close to their home addresses.
As McGregor is also buried there, it might be that they survived the initial crash and taken to Brookwood, but then dying from their injuries.
Name: McGREGOR, REGINALD ROTHWELL
Initials: R R
Nationality: Canadian
Rank: Sergeant
Regiment/Service: Royal Canadian Air Force
Age: 21
Date of Death: 21/03/1944
Service No: R/197660
Additional information: Son of Archibald and Lillian M. McGregor, of New Westminster, British Columbia, Canada.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 48. B. 3.
Cemetery: BROOKWOOD MILITARY CEMETERY

Now you've provided a Navigator, we may have a typical 7 man crew.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Hi Peter
Following Henk's suggestion there are deaths registered at Bournemouth in the 1st Qtr of 1944 as follows:-
Dennis Evans(the middle initial is given as R),20
Reginald R McGregor,21, both known to Henk for this incident
From his Unknown list there are,
Alexander,24,
Appleton,30,
Gent,22,
and Roberts,35
Timmins,45, registered at Braintree, Essex
Wood 43, registered at Doncaster,W Yorkshire. It was his wife's home and he is buried there,may have died on leave.
Kent not on the England and Wales register and may have died in Scotland or N Ireland.He is buried in Glasgow
Incidentally,as you give your location as London, try the branch of the British Library opposite Colindale Station on the Northern Line where they keep copies and microfilm of almost all UK newspapers for the last 200 years or so. A WW2 incident is likely to be published up to 2 weeks after the event due to Censorship
Regards
Dick

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Dick,
What was the registration place for Sgt Kenneth GREEN ?
Regards,
Henk.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Hi Henk
Green,20, also registered at Bournemouth
Regards
Dick

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Thanks Dick.This means that we may talk from a crew of seven on JP137.
Regards,
Henk.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Gentlemen -firstly apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but as it refers precisely to the query I have, I'm hoping that's OK?

I am (and always have been) a resident of Moordown, and live less than half a mile from where JP137 crashed.

Ever since my childhood in the '50s, I remember stories of a plane, supposedly on a 'secret mission', crashing to the ground, with the loss of all on board.
I remember the overgrown site of the crash, before it was reclaimed and new homes built on it, some 40 or more years ago, IIRC.

It is only now, nearly 70 years later, that the local community is trying to raise funds for a permanent memorial, to remember those who lost their lives that night.
Naturally, those involved in the venture are keen to have the names on any memorial inscription recorded as accurately as possible.

And therein lies the problem. Local 'legend' has a 5 man crew, plus 2 civilians on the ground. Those names we have - and of course tie up with your list.
The names for the crew:

Sgt. Alexander - F/O Appleton - Sgt. Evans - Sgt. Gent - Sgt. Mcgregor.

The possible inclusion of Sgt. Roberts and/or Sgt. Green as well has not, AFAIK, so far been considered.
That of course may need to change.

My query is how we should move forward, to try and confirm the presence of those last two airmen in the crew?
Or not, as the case may be.

Rather than the 'secret mission' of local legend, I rather suspect that JP137 may have been on something as ordinary as the delivery flight mentioned earlier in the thread, alongside JP107. Would a crew of 5 been more typical, for a non-operational delivery flight?

The whole thing is at an early stage, but we have the support of local councillors, and our ex MP (now retired) so we are hopeful that a suitable memorial will eventually be erected. We even have a provisional site!!

So I'm hoping that experienced aviation historians like yourselves might be able to steer us in the right direction, when it comes to confirming the identities of all those on board?

Thanks for reading --and sorry for the long waffle!!

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Unveiling a memorial and having the correct words on it means that the AHB/RAF (Air Historial Branch) M U S T come up with all the available info on this accident (even if the questioner is not a next of kin). The aircraft was from OADU (Overseas Aircraft Delivery Unit) and on a ferry- or test flight from Hurn, Moordown. It crashed short after take-off. The crew may have been 7 (Appleton/Evans/Gent/McGregor/Alexander/Green/Roberts). Killed on the ground were Mrs Dorothea BENNETT, age 59, from 9 Meadow Court, Wimbourne Road and Mr Percy Frederick CHISLETT, age 49, from 1027 Wimbourne Road, Bournemouth.
Success with the planning of the memorial; we may not forget those heroes.
Regards,
Henk.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Many thanks for your post Henk. I shall pass on your advice, regarding contacting the Air Historical Branch for any further information, to the relevant committee members, and hopefully we can confirm (or not!) whether Sgt Green and Sgt Roberts were on board.

Would it be normal for an aircraft to be ferried to, say, a new overseas squadron by it's operational crew, or would it have been 'delivered' by a separate, possibly smaller, crew?
If it is the operational crew we could well expect, as you suggest, a complement of 7, and not just the 5 currently thought to have been on board.

Thanks again for your post.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Gentlemen - sorry to impose again. The memorial for JP 137 continues to get closer to realisation. Funding shortages, and ill health have slowed things down a little, but we crack on!

As the official records 'snippets' come to light, various aspects of local 'legend' have had to be revised -perhap understandably!

One thing perhaps I may ask for your comments?
I have attached a copy of part of the crash records, which gives the serial numbers of the 4 Merlin XXII engines installed on JP 137. As you can see, one (highlighted) has a significantly different serial number from the other three.
Would it be reasonable to deduce that this engine may have been changed? Although the aircraft was less than 4 months old, and had yet to be delivered to it's operational base, it had already spent time in 3 different Maintenance Units in the weeks preceding the loss.

Eye witness reports of the time record, not only the port wing 'dipping' shortly after takeoff, but civilians on the ground reported an engine on fire.
As was common in these cases, the 'Category E (Burnt)' comment on the aircraft record card was a bit of an understatement. Contemporary newspaper photos of the wreckage show virtually nothing left!

Nevertheless, the Court of Inquiry decided 'no mechanical failure' and seemed to blame the pilot for 'flying visually'.
The sad thing is that, probably as a result of that conclusion, the descendants of Sgt. Evans (the pilot) have decided not to become involved with the memorial. Which is sad.

With the 'stall' and rudder overspill design flaw of the Halifax MKII, an engine failure on take off, combined with a full fuel load for the flight to North Africa ahead, it all probably meant that Sgt. Evans had no way of saving the aircraft, whatever he did.
And if one of the engines had been 'troublesome' in the preceding weeks, and changing it had not got to the root of the problem?.....

Of course, I realise this may just be a red herring, and that it may have been pure chance that 3 of the 4 engine serial numbers are close together.
And I may be doing a huge injustice to those vital ground crews at the 'MU's, by suggesting that they hadn't got to the root of the problem, but if we can gather any evidence that helps convince Sgt. Evans' family that they should be involved, and that no one is attaching any blame to him......

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

The JPxxx series of Halifaxes had the final standard of fin, which cured the fin stall problem.

Reports of fire being seen are common after aircraft crashes, even when none such are known to exist.

Neither of these comments should be read as casting doubt on the pilot, just as adding a note of caution to your theories.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Just goes to show how difficult it is for us to be definitive on the facts!

We have JP137 down as a MKII Series 1, not a MK II Series 1A, and the second record card actually describing the fact that the rudders had not been modified to cure the stall problem. (copy attached)

Yet you say the JPXXX range were fitted with modified rudders, making them MK II series 1A aircraft ??

Back to the drawing board for us, I think!

Thanks for this new info!

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Hello ,
First attachment shows that 7 were in aircraft.
Alex

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

The attachment also shows the investigators thought the "c. of g." (centre of gravity) was out of the allowable range. This was probably a major contributor to the crash, with or without engine problems or rudder lock.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Further to Graham's information on the tail fins, it seems to get curiouser:

If JP137 was a MK II series 1, then we should expect Merlin XX engines, if my understanding is correct?

If JP 137 was a MK II series 1A, then I think we should expect Merlin XXII engines - and modified tail fins, as he suggests.

From the record cards, the reference to the tail fins not being modified suggests a MK II series 1.
The fact that the other record card clearly describes Merlin XXII engines, suggest a MK II series 1A ?

Unless of course these designations were not 'absolute', and there were examples of aircraft with a mixture of various modifications and engine types?

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Just to advise that the Moordown Halifax Memorial is now in place, and was dedicated on July 10th.

Video of the dedication ceremony here

Some notes on the events surrounding the crash here

and some very interesting Civil Defence photos of the crash site, that came to light recently here


My thanks to the guidance received from the members here. We continue to receive information from a variety of sources --- it's been fascinating to hear some of the eye witness accounts.
I must add that I have been honoured to meet some of the relatives of the victims, both aircrew and civilians, during the course of this fascinating project.
Thanks again to those who contributed to this thread.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

fascinating thread... thanks.

GC

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Apologies for incorrect third link to the photographs in this post. It should link to here

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

On the Accident Card shown it is a Mk II and does not have the modified rudders. I also see the reference to a wing dropping and a "spin".

Generally, there was rudder overbalance and it is recorded that the first Halifax Rudder Modifications did not solve the problem according to the A & AEE in 1943:-

"When rudder locking takes place, the rudder overpowers the ailerons completely and the aircraft rolls over to the side in which the rudder is applied. At the same time, the nose drops, and the aircraft enters a spiral dive."

"If the Pilot pulls the control column back as the aircraft rolls over and drops its nose as he would instinctively do then the controls are set for a spin and, unless action is taken quickly ... a spin may result."

"In any case there is a large height loss of anything up to 4,000 feet during recovery."

If he had recently taken off, he would likely not have enough height to recover the aircraft. That is why the Inquiry is saying the modification is really required.

Generally with an engine problem more rudder is also applied to maintain track, so if an engine was on fire and the Pilot needs more rudder any problem with rudder overbalance / locking is likely to be compounded.

During 1943 tests, they tried limiting the rudder travel and also thicker cord on the rudder trailing edges, to make them feel heavier to the Pilot and hopefully prevent the rudder reaching the overbalance stage, but the thicker cord did not improve the rudder locking characteristic. The rudders were considered too heavy for general flying and the thicker cord made the rudders unpleasantly heavy according to the A & AEE.

They next tried some factory modified rudders which were tested and these also suffered from overbalance troubles.
Rudder limit stops were recommended and more training of Pilots in recovery techniques in No.4 Group.

However, the problem was only really settled with a new larger redesigned 'D' fin area (40% larger fin area) and rudder combination and when tested there was no tendency to overbalance in various flight conditions.

This aircraft did not have the modified rudders and I feel you can clear the Pilot of blame. Also sufficient height to attempt a recovery was likely insufficient and if an engine was also on fire, his problems were made worse.

Mark

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Many thanks for those observations. It does seem from eyewitness accounts that there was an engine fire, although there appears to be no mention of that in the 'official' accounts.
The AHB has confirmed that the original Court of Inquiry notes no longer exist, but we are hoping there may be some mention of the observed engine fire in the Civilian Inquest records. We are currently awaiting those.
There has been a renewed interest in trying to clear the pilot of any blame, following the publication of the story of the Memorial in the Daily Mail and Telegraph recently. Hopefully we shall be able to obtain enough evidence to get the RAF (or should that be MoD?) to amend the records.

The recent reversal of the Mull of Kyntire Chinook decision seems to have acted as a stimulus.......

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

It is a shame that the Accident Files with the Court of Inquiry or Court of Enquiry, along with the accident paperwork etc., plans, maps and damage photographs, newspaper cuttings, Observer Corps, Police and Witnesses etc., etc., from all the relevant sources are claimed not to exist.

Basically, once the findings of an RAF Court of Inquiry had been issued by the Unit CO or Group (or whoever was holding the Inquiry) on Form 2 or Form 412, it went to higher authority at Group or/and Command level and they could add their Statements, mount any defence against the earlier findings that they wished and include the findings of any further Inquiries that the Air or other Officer Commanding knew about or wished to make about the aircraft and these were recorded on the Form (sometimes annexed to the Form), before the Court of Inquiry Forms went to the Air Ministry. Some accidents were even referred by the Command to their own Engineering Branch or A.O.A. and then back to the aircraft Manufacturers, when the cause pointed to a structural airframe problem etc. They could also seek the technical assistance and an opinion from the Air Ministry A.I.B.

Paragraph 1318 of "The Kings Regulations of the Royal Air Force and Air Council Instructions" (known as "King's Regs" or "K.R.") refers, to when the Character or the professional reputation of an Airman or Pilot is called into question, or affected.

A Pilot or Airman has the right to defend himself and in the event of his death he cannot defend himself, so the accident cause must really be without any doubt.

In this case according to the summary on the Flying Accident Card a defect with regard to the aircraft rudders was mentioned, as they are unmodified. Therefore, this fact that there is in effect a defect with the aircraft involved which could likely cause this crash, throws into doubt any earlier reference to the Pilot causing the crash.

Therefore, the Pilot cannot be blamed, when there may be doubt or is any doubt as to the cause, or the earlier provisional cause is called into question.

The Inquest would likely have occurred before the RAF Inquiry was finalised and may not have been privy to any technical advice and information the RAF was receiving during any Investigation.

According to the K.R. this accident would also have to have been reported to the AIB (Accidents Investigation Branch) now the AAIB, under the reasons given in K.R. 743 Investigation of Accidents.

The A & AEE Report into the rudder problem on this type of aircraft said that it could take up to 4,000 feet for an experienced Test Pilot to recover this type of aircraft with the rudder problems.

The Pilot cannot be blamed, when an unmodified airframe defect could have caused this crash.

Mark

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Oh hang on a minute, you requested a Court of Inquiry? The Form 412 [Court of Inquiry] box has a cross in it.

However, the Flying Accident Card indicates that you should be specifically requesting the Forms 765(C) and the Form 1669 along with any "copy of any relevant letter or memorandum" ... "attached to Form 1669." or pieces annexed thereto.

These were completed at the time according to the Flying Accident Card and must be on the Airmans "Personal File" / "Casualty File". They have to be retained for 75 Years (from creation / i.e. 1944 in this case) and therefore paperwork ought to be complete. They cannot refuse it under FOI.

Form 765(c) = Forced Landing Not Due to Enemy Action
Form 1669
According to the AMO covering Investigation of Accidents as at 30 Dec 1943, "The purpose of Form 1669 is to ensure that suggestions made by Groups and Commands regarding accident prevention are available for consideration at the Air Ministry at the earliest possible moment."

Regards Mark

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Mark -
Many thanks for that valuable information.
I should explain that I am not an expert historian, and that my role in this project has essentially been as the member of the organising committee, tasked with correlating information acquired. There have been a number of sources of information, which the committee has been very grateful to receive.
The recent 'Court of Inquiry' document request to the AHB was made by the BBC, as part of their research into an upcoming documentary piece on the crash.
I shall ask them if they followed the line of enquiry you have indicated, or whether they simply made a request for the Court of Inquiry papers, which I had suggested.
As I say, as a non expert air historian, that was the line of inquiry I had been recommended to follow.
I'll report back on any further developments.
Thanks again.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Hello Arjay

I have the AMO (rules as it were) governing the accident paperwork, but to ensure you get the right part do you know if this aircraft was based with an Overseas Unit / Group or Command?

In the meantime you may like to see this attachment researched by Brian Johnson around 1982, Brian was a BBC Television Producer and he gained access to A & AEE Reports with a T. Heffernan who worked at Boscombe Down during the war years.

All the general Reports and Handling Trials ought to be in the AVIA series in The National Archives, Kew, by now. The general Reports into the "disappearing Halifaxes" over the sea on Ops & the Rudder problems should be A & AEE Report No.760; No.760a. These Reports have numerous (55) parts. See also Report 760c according to Brian Johnson's research and others.

You might also look at AIR 29/897 A&AEE ORB 1939-1944 in Appendix A which is recorded and published to have an Accident Report on a Halifax II, Accident Report No.W7917.

If you go to TNA, Kew, take some photographic ID such as Passport / Photo Driving Licence and at least two RECENT printed forms with both proof of your name and current address together on them (such as Council Tax Bill & Inland Revenue letter (although they probably ask for them within last 3 months), to get a Readers Ticket issued. Ring TNA before going.

Also Try
AVIA 13/560
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=0
and

AVIA 18/708 Halifax aircraft: performance and handling trials A.& A.E.E/760 13 pts 760a-e 55 pts 1940 to 1946
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=0
and check
AVIA 46/112
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=0
[although some of this info is pretty general, but you never know]

Brian Johnson wrote a book with the help of Heffernan which covers this Halifax type of aircraft with Rudder problems called "A Most Secret Place"
covering some of the work at "Boscombe Down 1939-45" you ought to be able to get this via Abe Books or a search of the other secondhand book search online companies.

Mark

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Only supposition, but the second of the two Halifaxs that took off from Hurn immediately after JP137 that morning --that is JP107 ---was posted to 614 Squadron based at Celone, Italy, and was itself subsequently lost 'over Hungary' on 26th June 1944.
Does it seem reasonable that JP137 may have been also destined for 614 Squadron?

Certainly, it appears from personal family correspondence from one of the crew members, that the crew had been selected for SOE duties --although, as you can imagine, the correspondence does not go into any detail, for obvious security reasons.

The crash card lists the 'Unit' as 3 OADU, which was of course based at Hurn, and the command as 'Transport', but I'm guessing that is simply the 'in transit' documentation allocation?

Again, many thanks for those new TNA links - hopefully they will lead to more useful information.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Hello Arjay

The Unit was No. 3 Overseas Aircraft Despatch Unit (OADU) based at Hurn. There is a No. 3 O.A.D.U. Operations Record Book (ORB) for the Unit, early WW2 ORBs I have looked at are not very detailed when it comes to crashes, but later ORBs might be better? There are Appendices and it ought to list all of the crew and you might get extra information. Always worth a look.

AIR 29/471
3 Overseas Aircraft Despatch Unit (OADU), Hurn (UK).
Jan 1943 to Nov 1944
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=0
Jan 1943 to Nov 1944

Being based at Hurn, crashing onto houses with civil deaths and the references to "C of I" on the Accident Card, there should be a Court of Inquiry too.

I will PM you with some interesting general pieces about C of I.

No. 44 Ferry (Service) Group ORBs are AIR 25/627 and AIR 25/636 ORB (Engineering) and AIR 25/634 ORB (Plans) AIR 25/636 (Operations) AIR 25/640 (Training) AIR 25/638 (Signals, Training, WAAF, Armament and Air Se Rescue); AIR 25/637 (Equipment, Intelligence, Medical) for 1944

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=5

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=5

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=5

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=5

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=5

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=5

TRANSPORT COMMAND should be in the region of AIR 24/1602 (Vol.1) AIR24/1603 (Vol.2); ONWARD and there are numerous ORBs and Appendices for you to look up in the AIR 24 paper indexes, (No links given).

RAF Station HURN ORB is in AIR 28/346
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=0

You should find the ORB Catalogue references in the AIR 25 (for Groups) and AIR 24 (for Commands), Paper Catalogue Indexes (Red Volumes on the 1st floor, shelves, outside the main 1st Floor Reading Room). Also look to see if there are any Appendices covering the same time periods, or other adjacent references.

There are plenty of ORBs to look through, to see if you find any further references, etc. Start with the Unit and Station ORBs first, as that may also give you more information about the purpose of the flight etc.

Mark

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Mark -
Many thanks for those very useful links. I have already seen copies of some of the ORB pages from Hurn - indeed, I placed copies of some in my notes here: http://www.arjay1949.webspace.virgin...m/JP/JP137.pdf , which I linked to in my earlier post, but it will be interesting to see if there's any more.
Thank you for your suggestions and advice.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Unfortunately, it does look as if the BBC simply made a request for 'further documentation' on the crash of JP137, rather than a specific FOI request for form 765 and /or 1669.
The AHB responded to the BBC request that there was 'no additional documentation available'.
A further disappointment came from the Bournemouth Coroners Office, saying that the appropriate civilian inquest papers could not be traced either, admitting to 'gaps' in the inquest records from around that time.

Now whether these comments are true, or merely official 'stonewalling' to avoid any hard work, when it's clearly only 'amateur' historians making the requests, I wouldn't know?.....

What is slightly more encouraging is the response to the local paper piece, asking for witnesses to an engine fire, seen before the aircraft crash.

We now have 6 independent reports (2 x 'first hand' and 4 x 'secondhand' ones) of an engine fire before the aircraft crash. Most from those who had heard the approaching aircraft, clearly in distress, and looking out to see what was happening....

So, we have an aircraft in the air for only 3 minutes (according to the AM1180 card) ...a full fuel load ...reports of a wing 'dropping' some 2 minutes into the flight (again from the AM1180 card) .....a call to the Winton (local ) fire brigade, from the airfield, before the crash ..... 6 reports of an engine on fire..... the AM1180 reports of the rudder overspill problem (which the A &AEE 1943 reports that Mark refers to in post #25, indicate was a pretty serious fault).......

How can they still 'blame the pilot' ??? ......

I wonder if these new 'engine fire' reports are likely to help persuade the RAF to amend their records..... if they are true ( and I can see no reason why not?), surely there would have been nothing Sgt. Evans could have done to save that aircraft......

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

I'm attaching a copy of the reverse of the AM1180 accident record card for JP 137, in the hope that someone can explain abbreviations I have highlighted.

I'm guessing that the highlighted section of the Additional Evidence section reads :

'C of I' (Court of Inquiry?) followed by what looks like a mathematical division sign, and then a '%' sign. Both before the words 'mechanical failure'.

Any idea what they might refer to??

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Arjay
The boxes above "Acc Code No." are numbered 1 to 7; +9 and an additional box marked "Fire".

The Royal Air Force had a Statistical Branch and my research of earlier WW2 Accident Cards (different format to these later WW2 Accident Cards) indicate that these Cause Groupings (or Accident Codes) noted on Accident Cards, were used in the compilation of RAF Flying Accident Statistics.

You will note that the "Fire" box is marked with a heavy cross (the same as "OPL" [Operational] and the "Night" boxes). Therefore, according to this they are placing the primary cause of the Accident as an aircraft fire, during the "O" [Take Off] "Stage".
(Other Stages were:- M = Miscellaneous; T = Taxying; F = In Flight; L = Landing etc.)

Regarding the other words you have highlighed, "C of I:- e/o [Engineering Officer or Engineer's title/rank] "Mechanical failure".

Mark

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

New information received suggests that JP137 may in fact have been assigned to 624 Squadron.

Letter received from an ex 624 Squadron member, recalling the reported loss of JP137 as losing one of 'ours' ... and remembering the pilot's name as Evans... Not sure if there's anyway of checking that out further?...

There is a website for 624 squadron, but the forum registration charge of £10 seems a bit high, for just a tentative enquiry.....

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Hello Arjay

Your latest post, has made me look at the accident and aircraft paperwork relating to this aircraft and crash again. The ORB states:-

"Halifax II. JP.137 in transit from Hurn to M.A.A.F. crashed immediately after take-off" ...

Under "Station or Contractor" the Aircraft Card also confirms this Halifax was with 3 OADU prior to the crash, but was with the "MAAF" (Mediterranean Allied Air Force) on the date of the crash.

I'm afraid that the Mediterranean RAF Theatre of operations is not my main interest and I feel that someone else with more knowledge of that theatre of operations and Squadrons will be able to help.

One final point about a fire, official documents at TNA, Kew, indicate that the Halifax also had a problem with leaking fuel pipe unions.

Glad to see that you are following up all the lines of research diligently!!

Mark

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Further to my post about the Halifax being with the MAAF on the day of the crash. The files of the MAAF, TNA, Kew, AIR 51 gives the following:-

Many of the records of the Allied Command were deposited, after microfilming, with the United States' Department of the Army. The records of Headquarters Mediterranean Allied Air Force (MAAF) were originally microfilmed by the MAAF Historical Section but inspection of these films by the Allied Forces Records Administration (AFRA) resulted in a decision to re-film the records to the technical standards prescribed by a Combined Chiefs of Staff's directive. Both sets of film eventually came into the hands of the Ministry of Defence, Air Department who were then able to make a direct comparison and, having established that there was complete duplication between them, they elected to destroy the AFRA microfilm in February 1973.

The joint Allied air command was established on 17 February 1943 under the name "Mediterranean Air Command", but was re-named "Mediterranean Allied Air Forces" with effect from 10 December 1943. Mediterranean Allied Air Forces was dissolved into its constituent parts: US Army Air Forces, Mediterranean Theatre of Operations and Royal Air Force, Mediterranean and Middle East on 31 July 1945.

A comment about the above, rather than destroy the so called "duplication" film set (of the MAAF files), they could have offered the set of filmed records to other Archives, Universities, or provincial main Libraries in the UK.