Loss of 2 He111 of KG 54 on May 15th 1940 - The Netherlands
 

Does anyone have more information about the loss (100%) of 2 He111's of KG54 in The Netherlands on May 15th 1940?

One went down near Vlissingen, the other one apparently ditched in the Westerschelde near Borssele.

Thanks in advance,
Rudi.

Re: Loss of 2 He111 of KG 54 on May 15th 1940 - The Netherlands
 

Hi Rudi,

No, am not aware of any such claims.
On the 15th only one Luftwaffe loss in that area, a Ju88 of 2./KG30.
Are you confused with May 17, when two He111's of Stab/KG4 were lost around Vlissingen?

Pieter

Re: Loss of 2 He111 of KG 54 on May 15th 1940 - The Netherlands
 

Take a look at www.wingstovictory.nl and go to database.
You will find all crashes in Zeeland.


Leo Bakker

Re: Loss of 2 He111 of KG 54 on May 15th 1940 - The Netherlands
 

Thanks Leo & Pieter for your input. Very much appreciated.

My info is coming from both the SGLO & from Brongers.

SGLO mentiones the following:
May 14th, 1940: He 111 down at Yerseke, no unit given
May 15th, 1940: He 111 of Stab./KG54 down in the Vlissingen area
May 15th, 1940: He 111 of Stab./KG54 down in the Westerschelde near Borssele

Brongers mentiones the following:
May 14th,1940: He 111 of Stab./KG54 down near Vlissingen
May 15th,1940: Ju 88 of 2./KG 30 down in the Westerschelde near Borssele
May 15th:1940: He 111 of Stab./KG54 down near Yerseke

Wings to victory mentiones the same as the SGLO.

Just wondering if anyone could confirm which of these were KG 54 & if anyone had more info on these losses.

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: Loss of 2 He111 of KG 54 on May 15th 1940 - The Netherlands
 

Rudi,

The answer to your question is none of them. There is obvious confusion in the sources that you quote and, I suspect, duplication of spurious information as one incorrect source spawns another. Like Pieter, I know of no He111 loss on May 14, 1940, to match either of the locations given and I believe Stab KG54 suffered no such loss on that date.

As for the losses on May 15, 1940, I currently have only the following listed:

2./KG30 Junkers Ju88A-1. Failed to return from low-level attack on shipping at Vlissingen and crashed into the Westerschelde estuary off Beveland, possibly victim of AA fire from destroyer HMS Whitley. FF Uffz Ludwig Wengert, BF Uffz Martin Stampfer, and BO Obergefr Josef Wunder all killed, BS Flgr Adolf Trinkl rescued by Dutch steamer and captured badly wounded – later released. Aircraft 100% write-off.
The body of bomb-aimer, Josef Wunder, was washed ashore at Borssele on May 29.

Again, I believe Stab KG54 suffered no losses on that date. Hope this is helpful.

Re: Loss of 2 He111 of KG 54 on May 15th 1940 - The Netherlands
 

Peter,

Thanks for your reply. It's very much appreciated. I think that you're right & that no Stab./KG54 aircraft was lost that day.

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: Loss of 2 He111 of KG 54 on May 15th 1940 - The Netherlands
 

[quote=Peter Cornwell;105690]Rudi,

The answer to your question is none of them. There is obvious confusion in the sources that you quote and, I suspect, duplication of spurious information as one incorrect source spawns another. Like Pieter, I know of no He111 loss on May 14, 1940, to match either of the locations given and I believe Stab KG54 suffered no such loss on that date. [quote]

Peter,

I've got a He 111 of 1./F 121 crashed at St.Kruis Aardenburg Zeeland on the 14th at 0600 hrs. Shot down by French Fighters
Ff Ofw. R. Schnegotzki
Bo Oblt. H. Spillmann
- Uffz. W. Collosseus
- Uffz. W. Gers
All crew kia.

And Peter, may I ask what source you are using for your statement of no losses for KG54 on the 14th and the 15th.
Just trying to get our list up to date!

Cheers

Re: Loss of 2 He111 of KG 54 on May 15th 1940 - The Netherlands
 

Bas,

The a/c on May 14 of 1.(F)/121 was not a He111, but a Ju88A-1. Other than that location, time and crew are correct as mentioned.

In general the two claims of He111's of Stab./KG54 by Brongers and all others who copy his list are based on the well-known files of the late Mr Weiss. Interestingly, though, is that the time is mentioned as 14.30 pm, which was almost exactly the timing of the Rotterdam bomb raid by the entire KG54.

As far as I know no losses were reported on this raid (Dutch AA fire was effectively absent at that time), so that leaves two obvious options.

1. The claims are simply false/confused/mistakes and probably impossible to trace back where this mistake was made.
2. If they are true it would imply that the Stab Staffel (some 4-6 aircraft at most) of KG54 did not participate in the bombing of Rotterdam, apparently flew on to Zeeland, attacked shipping there and then two got shot down without leaving a trace.

Since I find the second scenario more unlikely than the first, I tend to believe the first one until more hard proofs of the other come available. In the meantime I still believe the confusion is with the two Heinkels of Stab./KG4 which are listed under May 17. See both Brongers and Peter Cornwell. also Wim de Meester has aarently done a lot of investigation into these losses, see http://www.wingstovictory.nl/database/database.php. Also there you'll find that the May 15 crashes are only based on reports from French naval forces, but are not confirmed by any real evidence of a crash.

Regards, Pieter

Re: Loss of 2 He111 of KG 54 on May 15th 1940 - The Netherlands
 

Hello Bas,

That is not what was said. I stated that 'I know of no He111 loss on May 14, 1940, to match either of the locations given and I believe Stab KG54 suffered no such loss on that date' also, 'As for the losses on May 15, 1940, ... I believe Stab KG54 suffered no losses on that date'.

In fact KG54 lost two He111Ps on May 15, 1940, as follows:

1./KG54 Heinkel He111P-2. Reportedly set alight by AA fire over Hoeilaart, south of Brussels, during armed reconnaissance sortie but believed that attacked by Adj Leblanc, S/Lt Bevillard, and Sgt Gouzi of GC III/3. Crash-landed and burned out at Huizingen 7.00 a.m. FF Lt Hans-Burkhard Eymer, BF Gefr Heinz Huhle, BO Gefr August Müller, and BM Flgr Hermann Meister captured unhurt. Aircraft B3+KH 100% write-off.


3./KG54 Heinkel He111P-2. Returned damaged in attacks by Adj Leblanc, S/Lt Bevillard, and Sgt Gouzi of GC III/3 between Tirlemont and St Trond 7.00 a.m. BM Uffz Fritz Göggel and BF Uffz Karl Ilsemann both slightly wounded - admitted to hospital in Quakenbrück, rest of crew unhurt. Aircraft 10% damaged - repairable.

My main source are my own records which I have assembled over many years based upon a thorough analysis/comparison of surviving Lw records; in this particular case the QMG Returns & NVMs for KG54. Wherever possible I prefer to rely upon original documentary sources to establish the facts rather than simply accept previously published/compiled records/databases etc. May I recommend that you consider adopting a similar 'back to basics' approach to any revisions that you may feel are necessary to your own listings - still viewed by many as a valuable research tool ?

I am in full agreement with Pieter's response.

Regards,

Peter C

Re: Loss of 2 He111 of KG 54 on May 15th 1940 - The Netherlands
 

Peter, Pieter,

Thanks to both of you for clearing this matter.

I don't have access to the original documents, and have to trust others for their info, which is dangerous I know.

Peter, sorry for the incorrect quote of your words.
No offense mend.

Re: Loss of 2 He111 of KG 54 on May 15th 1940 - The Netherlands
 

Bas,

None taken. Good luck with your revisions.

Re: Loss of 2 He111 of KG 54 on May 15th 1940 - The Netherlands
 

Rudi,

I can solve the problem.
Your information is from the Losslist of the Study Group Airwar 1939-1945.
There the two crashed planes are mentioned under T685 and T686.
You can delete both crashes.
I just have seen the transcription of the "Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste
bei den Verbänden am 15.05.40".
There both "crashes" are mentioned under "Ergänzung" for a "Meldung"
at an earlier date and most probable two "Ergänzungen" for the same
"Meldung". The original files at the film are not very well readable.
I am in discussion with Bas Maathuis and will bring this also under the
attention of the other members of the Study Group.

Jaap Woortman

Re: Loss of 2 He111 of KG 54 on May 15th 1940 - The Netherlands
 

The attack on HMS Valentine was carried out by 3 Ju 88A-2 of 2./KG 30 in a time frame between 16.32 and 16.42 hours. One of these however was hit by shrapnell from 10,2 cm coming from HMS Whitley after which the aircraft crashed off the Braakman in the Scheldt river.
This victory was also claimed by French AA MG's located a little east of the small village of Hoofdplaat along the seawall.
After it struck the water, it floated for some time sinking slowly under the surface.

FF Uffz. Ludwig Wengert washed ashore on 27 May near Breskens and was buried the very same day (reburied 15 October 1942).
BO Ofw. Josef Wunder washed ashore near Borssele after which he was buried at Ehrenfriedhof am Hafen at Goes.
Bf Uffz. Martin Stampfer's body was recovered by Hr.Ms. BV36 and temporary buried on 18 May. Transferred 26 September 1940 to Flushing Noorder begraafplaats.
Bs Flg. Adolph Trinkle was wounded (broken legs). Saved by the sdame BV 36 and taken to Bethesda hospital at Flushing and traeted by Dr. Staverman till 1 June 1940. After that transferred To Antwerp.

That's all apart from a Blenheim of 15 Sqn that day over the Zeeland skies but that's another story.

Re: Loss of 2 He111 of KG 54 on May 15th 1940 - The Netherlands
 

Wim,

Excellent detail - many thanks.