New Stuka book
 

Hitler's Stuka Squadrons by John Ward. Paperback, 7 3/4 x 10 1/2 inches, 224 pages, 15 color. The promo text indicates that this book "...separates fact from fantasy regarding the achievements and career of the Ju 87 aircraft."

I have not seen this book. I am not an agent for any bookseller, the author or publisher.


Ed

Ward's Stuka Book
 

I browsed this book at my local Border's. My impression was that it was derivative, having no new information and the color profiles, to my eye are not to the standards set by Classic or Eagle publications. I was disappointed, since a thorough operational history of the 87 is lacking.

Thank you for the info.


Ed

do not despair MP is working on it......

What is MP working on?


Ed

If MP is Martin Pegg I hope he includes serious technical stuff for gear heads as well. His Hs 129 book was seriously lacking in this regard. It is simply unacceptable that you can get better technical description of the Hs 129 from the Czech MBI cheap booklet (Bernad et al) than for Pegg´s £40 book.

'87 Book
 

The best book currently available on the 87, in my opinion, is Manfred Greihl's. It's even available in English. It is a bit light, however, on operfational use. Each Geschwader is discussed in a few paragraphs.

I have to disagree. Griehl´s book is very weak as far as gear head stuff goes. He seems to love Werkenummern that are of zero interest to me. He fails to deliver anything in depth on systems, structure, construction materials, handling. Not a single performance curve there. I am having high hopes for the Ju 87 volume in the Black Cross series (tr. from German Vom Original zum Modell) for the 4 first volumes have delivered much tech material that far more expensive and larger monographs utterly fail to do.

Ju 87 References
 

I have John Ward's new book, and I agree with Dick Power's comments.

Fortunately, there are many other volumes devoted to the Ju 87 (at least 40 that describe the aircraft, plus about 15 biographies and unit histories.) None of these books qualifies as the definitive Stuka reference, so you'll need at least a few of them for decent coverage.

Here are some recommendations:

- "Junkers Ju 87 Stuka" by Smith; Crowood, 1998; ISBN 1-86126-177-2
(Not to be confused with his earlier book, "Stuka at War")
Perhaps the best single volume on the Ju 87. Describes development and operational history, with more emphasis on the latter. Includes personal accounts, biographies, tactics, foreign use, OOBs, loss statistics, and good photos. Weak on technical data.

- "Junkers Ju 87 Stuka" by Griehl; Airlife, 2001; ISBN 1-84037-198-6
Another good single-volume work. A good complement to Smith's book, with more detailed coverage of development history, armament, production, night units, training units, and carrier/torpedo variants. Also weak on technical data.

- "Vom Original zum Modell: Junkers Ju 87" by Erfurth; Bernard & Graefe Verlag, 1999; ISBN 3-7637-6017-2 (To be published in English as vol. 5 of the Black Cross series by Specialty Press/Midland)
The best technical reference, with reprints of pages from technical manuals, performance curves, construction details, production line photos and detail shots, descriptions of all prototypes and production variants, etc.


Other worthwhile resources:

- "Stukas!" by Leonard; Editions Heimdal, 1997
High quality photos.

- "Ju 87 Stuka in Action" by Filley; Squadron/Signal, 1986
- "Junkers Ju 87 Stuka" by Bily, Androvic, Bernad; MBI/Sagitta, 1992
Useful detail drawings of the differences between variants.

- "Junkers Ju 87 from 1936 to 1945" by Leonard, Jouineau; Histoire & Collections, 2003
Lots of color profiles.

- "Junkers Ju 87D/G Stuka" by Aero Detail, 1994
Close-up color photos and detailed drawings.

Leon Venter

Could anybody reccomend the best books on the Ju87 during the Battle of Britain?

I've seen a number of books on the Stuka, but would prefer one that concentrated on the 1940 period (as 'Zerstorrer' does for the Me110) than one that covers the whole war.

The same goes for the Ju88, Do17, He111, and Me109.

Geoff.

Re: Ju 87 References
 

Hello, pls, can you tell me, is in theese books anything about SG 102 in Deutsch Brod? I am reseraching history of this base, and SG 102 was here for two or three yers. Can you help me?

Re: New Stuka book
 

I had a look at Ward's book and in the areas I know a little about (Nachtschlachtgruppen) he certainly didn't separate fact from fantasy. The caption to the profile of a supposed NSG 9 machine says, IIRC, that the Gruppe flew tank-busting missions at night. I'd love to see his evidence for that!

Griehl's book is OK but again, where I know something about them, the potted unit histories are not always reliable.

Squadron/Signal's "Ju 87 in Action" is a useful reference (especially for illustrating for detailed modifications to different types).

Finally, distrust any book that goes on at length about the Ju 87 D-7 and D-8. I've never seen one mention of these sub-types in a loss report, strength return or crash/capture investigation.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Jukka wrote some complaints about Martin Pegg's Hs 129 book:

I don't agree with Jukka's sweeping negative comment. Pegg's very large book on the Hs 129 is a great piece of art, very well-researched, and definitely one of the very best aviation books in my bookshelf. (Dénes Bernad's work on the Hs 129 also is great, of course!)

As most of us know, all books have some errors, and we will have to wait for the first aviation book which is totally faultless until some of the well-known whiners here writes his first book. I'm sure that will set a completely new standard for popular history books! :D

In short, I think many of us would look forward to see Jukka Juutinen write his first book. :p Why not one on the Ju 87 or the Hs 129?

Re: New Stuka book
 

Haa, haa:( The truth is that Pegg´s book is good on operational aspects, but for gearheads and river counters it offers basically nothing. Some examples of material which should have been included: armor specs (i.e. hardness, strength, chemical composition), performance curves, detailed drawings on construction features, handling reports (e.g. from Rechlin), production line photos showing various stages of assembly, etc.

Re: New Stuka book
 

"Should" precisely these details have been included? Due to which law, due to which set of standards?

Martin Pegg's book "Hs 129 Panzerjäger" includes very many valuable technical aspects on the Hs 129. For instance, detailed descriptions and lots of drawings and close-up photographs on the 30mm solothurn Tungsten Carbide shell and its effect under various circumstances on armour; cockpit views; engine details and drawings; gun fittings;bomb loading applications; gunsight details; handbook copies; radio devices. To just take one example, pages 235 - 245 in this super-large size book (31 cm x 23 cm, i.e. 12 inches x 9 inches) are entirely devoted to a technical description of the SG 113 to the Hs 129, and includes five pages of full text on the subject, 19 photographs of the SG 113, and a full page of technical drawings explaining the SG 113 mounting to the Hs 129.

What you imply simply is not true.

It's cheap to criticise a book by simply demanding "more". You try to prove that Pegg's book is lacking in its technical description by selecting the details which were not included in Pegg's book. Thus you give an unfair and distorted picture of a book which has a very good balance between technical descriptions and operational history.

But I'd like to give you one chance to defend yourself: Please list ten other Luftwaffe aircraft history books which give all of what you demanded, plus the kind of technical details which Martin Pegg gives in his book. Here are the technical details which you claim "must" be included in any Luftwaffe aircraft book:

* armor specs (i.e. hardness, strength, chemical composition)
* performance curves
* detailed drawings on construction features
* handling reports (e.g. from Rechlin)
* production line photos showing various stages of assembly

I'm looking forward to that list with great anticipation. I wonder how I could have missed Luftwaffe aircraft books which go that much into detail!

While you, Jukka, the expert on what "must" be in Luftwaffe aircraft books are working on that, please also list five or six books where I can find comparative performance curves for different Me 109 aircraft individuals (i.e. different aircraft of the same production type, like e.g. the F-4) at various stages of engine wear and at various weight stages (full tank, full loaded, half full tank, etc); also with cirves for various degrees of polishing, and some comparative performance curves for various degrees of pilot skills regarding trim, propeller pitch etc. Those performance curves will tell the reality - contrary to the clean test flight performance curves, which give us no span but only are fairly clinical. Please list a few books where those "must" performance curves can be found for the Me 109 F-4.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Well, take a look at Dean´s America´s Hundred Thousand. Excepting armor specs it has basically the info I miss from Pegg.

Or, Regnat´s Do 335 book and Leverenz&Herrman´s FW 190A book. Plenty of data Pegg didn´t have.

You mentioned that Pegg had 10 pages on the SG 113. Well, as is so typical in Luftwaffe books, experimental or other weird stuff is trampled to death, but the things that were the backbone are skipped over. So Pegg´s coverage of e.g. the MK 101 and MG 151 was dirt poor.

If a small Czech booklet has more detailed tech details than a big, expensive book on the same subject, things are fishy indeed. Note: e.g. the Fokker Triplane book from the same publisher has much better technical coverage of its subject for a lot lower page count than Pegg´s book. So, I blame Pegg, not the publisher.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Jukka, you demanded that Pegg's book should have had all of this:

* armor specs (i.e. hardness, strength, chemical composition)
* performance curves
* detailed drawings on construction features
* handling reports (e.g. from Rechlin)
* production line photos showing various stages of assembly

But you are unable to give us the title of even a single Luftwaffe aircraft book - not even any aircraft book at all - which provides the reader with all of that.

I don't know why you subject Pegg's book to such unfounded attacks, but I will stop discussing the issue with you now, since I think that anyone who reads this thread will be able to draw cprrect conclusions about Martin Pegg's excellent Hs 129 book by now. (Yes, Dénes Bernád's Hs 129 book also is great, but I don't want to compare the two.)

Re: New Stuka book
 

Jukka, I would not worry to much about what some people have to say as they miss the fact that you were only using the Pegg book as an example.

I agree with you that many books only tell half the 'story' on an a/c. Performance curves, detailed drawings (3 view and cut-away isometric) and handling reports really should be included to fill out the a/c's 'story'.

Re: New Stuka book
 

I'm with Christer on this one. All the techie stuff does nothing for me at all other than knowing what I need to know to tell one variant from another.

Re: New Stuka book
 

And I’m with Jukka. Even the armour info might be relevant in Hs 129 and Il-2 cases because of their construction. In many cases opponent a/c had different optimal heights so that one could be faster in one height band and the other in other. Comparing speed graphs one can see that. And that might made it easier to understand the tactics used. Same with handling notes. And construction details are always interesting. And Jukka is unfortunately right when he noted that far too often the all kinds of oddies which had no effects on battlefields has descript thoroughly but the widely used weapons got only cursory descriptions or not even that.
And we Finns are fortunate that in Raunio’s Lentäjän Näkökulma 2 one can check inside which interval the max. speeds of different MS 406s and Fiat G.50s varied after major overhauls.

Juha
Ps. I liked the Pegg's book for its operational info and IIRC there are also pilots' views which were clearly more positive than that of Eric Brown in his AI article.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Kutscha, you nailed it in one: I used the Pegg book as an example. Juha, you also nailed it in one. In case of the Hs 129 and Il-2, armour specs are vital to the discussion of the aircraft as both aircraft sacrificed a lot to get all that armour in. Pegg´s discussion on this is like one would write a 350-page on the Tiger tank and devote a few lines to its armour. Simply unacceptable. In short, I´d like to have aircraft books that would be modelled after John Roberts´s "HMS Dreadnought" volume in the AotS series.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Most of the Hs 129's technical details Jukka et al. are looking for are simply not available any more.

Re: New Stuka book
 

In view of constant new archival findings I doubt that. I have been told that e.g. the Deutsches Museum archive has lots of unorganized techie documents that remain unexplored (e.g. a very interesting doc on Bf 109F wing stifness and aileron forces). But researching such stuff seem to over the head of authors whose life´s work is to determine if the Hakenkreuz was 603.6 mm or 603.7 mm wide. Things that no pilot, aircraft designer, mechanic, unit commander, general or corporal gave a rat´s a**.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Maybe both combat operations and technical details are very difficult to squeeze into the same book for a weapon system which saw intense combat ? To take an example from books on the panzerwaffe, books on the Tiger and Panther are distinctly divided into two groups : combat operations/markings (books by Jean Restayn, Wolfgang Schneider, Eric Lefevre, various campaign books from Heimdal, the phenomenal books in French by Didier Lodieu, Thomas Jentz books on combat operations etc.) and completely technical tracts, sometimes by the same authors (Jentz, Spielberger, Andrew Devey). Even here, Schneider is clearly the combat expert whereas Jentz/Spielberger are technical gurus.
Jurliet's two books on the 262 and Lommel's two on the Natter probably fall into this category of separately looking operations and technical details, but, probably for obvious reasons, the operational books have a bigger market and are produced in higher quantities.

My 2 cents regarding author background - it does not matter as long as s/he is intellectually curious and willing to learn and be surprised. Engineering (in any sub-discipline) is not, repeat not, superstring theory, requiring great conceptual bandwidth and long period of incubation. Common sense and basic understanding of quantitative aspects would allow anyone to understand and interpret performance curves or anything else that rocks your boat. Remember, the ultimate engineering company, IBM, was rescued by a guy (Lou Gerstner) who sold credit cards and biscuits before he came to IBM.
Personal preference - give me Nick Beale, Christer Bergstrom, Jochen Prien, John Manhro any day who make history come alive and talk.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Well, unfortunately that common sense and basic understanding on quantative aspects seem to be missing some authors (and I don´t mean Pegg, Prien et al). Your example of armour books is a good one. The thing is that technical tank books are available along with operational books. Technical aircraft books are NOT available. What I would like to be repeated on aircraft is AotS equivalents or even something like Devey did on the Jagdtiger or Jentz´s Tiger trilogy.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Very recently I was trying to locate the former Henschel archives, or part of it. Finally, I could trace down the current company in Kassel, which can be regarded as the successor of Henschel Flugzeug-Werke. The answer I received was that in the past 30 years that particular person was with the company (incl. HFW), he was not aware of the archive existing. Also, according to him, all older employees, who might know something, have died.
Unfortunately, a dead end.

Dénes

P.S. If anyone has a hint where to look further, I'd greatly appreciate it.
I posted on this very forum the same question, but unfortunately received no reply.

Re: New Stuka book
 

So here's another thread in which a certain person attacks Martin Pegg's 129 book. Well then, I have to hold my hand up and say that all that I have done is a piece of shit, because you won't find performance curves, strength of armour plating, factory photos, and all the other things the non-author says should be in an aviation book. Hell, I didn't even put in any of mine how many times Martin Lutz pissed up against the tailwheel of his Bf 110 before taking off for England, and how that piss affected performance! I should really have delved deeper to find out! Or whether any pilots stroked, cuddled, or saluted the Staffelhund before they took off, and what the effect on their flying performance this had! Jeez, I've been getting so much wrong all these years, and it has taken a contributor to this Forum to finally open my eyes. I will now concentrate on performance curves, thickness and effectiveness of armour plating, and the differing effects of pilots' rear armour, front canopy armour, its effectiveness at different speeds and different heights, in summer and winter (and Spring and Autumn too), the number of rivets on the fuselage, whether the thickness of the stencilling on the fuselage had an adverse effect on speed in level flight, a climb, or a dive. You know, I never thought to investigate the difference in performance between a retractable tail wheel and a static one - naughty, naughty me!!! In other words, do me (and most others on this Forum) a fuckin' favour and leave Martin Pegg, a respected author for decades, alone, and accept that he has produced a book that contains what HE wants to include, and which is also acceptable to his publisher. Aviation books are not targeted at half-a-dozen anoraks/rivet-fuckin' counters, but rather at the majority of those whom the publisher believes will buy their books. If what Martin Pegg produces is not quite to your taste, then don't fuckin' buy it. But don't come on here and run the man, and his efforts, down. To do so, which you have done, is the act of a total prick, in my opinion.

End of.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Funny me but I thought personal insults were against the rules of the forum? And if I may add Johnny boy, your books do not claim to be type monoghraphs, which Pegg´s book does.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Jukka,
Personal insults? You should have remembered that a long time ago. That's a bit rich coming from you, of all people on this Forum!!! I recall from a previous thread that you said Martin Pegg's 129 book was not worth the paper it was printed on (or words to that effect - I do not have the verbatim statement to hand). If that's not a personal insult, then I don't know what is!
And I still stand by what I said: "If what Martin Pegg produces is not quite to your taste, then don't fuckin' buy it. But don't come on here and run the man, and his efforts, down. To do so, which you have done, is the act of a total prick, in my opinion."
I don't claim anything for my books. They are simply research, and then publication. And they contain mistakes. And they are incomplete (as is every book on WW2). Some people may like them, others may think they are a load of shite. Personally, I don't care, because there are more important things in life than Luftwaffe books. But there is no excuse whatsoever for denigrating another person, or their efforts, which you have done in the past.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Of course personal insults - i.e. unfair and wrong accusations - is not allowed here.

Jukka, of course you are not a fool who demands things which you didn't know was impossible to find?

Now since the well-versed author and Hs 129 expert Dénes Bernád took some time to contribute to this interesting thread, and told us that he has been looking for exactly the kind of material for precisely the Hs 129 which you say should be in any aircraft book, you owe Dénes - and all of us - to describe exactly where all the material is to be found which you say unconditionally should be in any aircraft book (and specifically a book on the Hs 129), namely:

You see, if you fail to inform us exactly where it is possible to find the material which you specifically demanded should have been in Pegg's book, I am afraid that most people here will think that John Vasco is right that you are just a jealous fool who babbles about things you know nothing about only in order to get a cheap shot at the serious researcher and author Martin Pegg. So please show us that John is wrong, and don't delay your answer.

(I still am a bit surprised that you failed to list even a single Luftwaffe aircraft book which gives all the information which you said should be in any Luftwaffe aircraft book. I asked you to list ten such books, and I had expected you to list ten such books. Personally, I have never during 30 years of reading found even one such book on any aircraft of any country during any period, but you are the expert, Jukka, so please don't forget to give me those reading tips too.)

Re: New Stuka book
 

Please tell me when I have insulted Pegg´s person? If your reviewing standards were universally accepted, then book reviewing would become impossible, unless one wanted to produce meaningless "ad reviews" so typical of avmags like FlyPast or Aer.Mo. Funny thing two is that John Weal´s work has been assaulted with far more severe words than Pegg´s work, yet you never assaulted his critics. Which suggests fraudulent behaviour on your part.

Re: New Stuka book
 

What should be demanded of a serious book reviewer? Knowledge.

A basic standard for book reviewing is that the review does not demand anything impossible. To give you an example, I can write a review on a book on the Lascaux cave paitnings, and I can say that in such a large book there should have been photos to illustrate the paintings. However, I will make a fool out of myself if I demand that there should have been biographies of the artists of the cave paintings in the book, because - as people with knowledge about the Lascaux cave paintings know - it is impossible to find out who made those paintings. If I had demanded the latter, I would have revealed only my own ignorance, and people would suspect me of wanting nothing but to get a cheap shot at the author.

Re: New Stuka book
 

As host I find it difficult to accept the continued attacks on Martin Pegg's classic work, since it might give the false impression that we endorse the personal views of a community member.

Most of what Christer Bergström and John Vasco have written on this subject conforms with my personal views; although John expressed himself in more graphic terms, IMHO he's not less reasonable (nor his choice of words unacceptable - we are adults :rolleyes: ).

There is still room for continued debate, as long as it remains constructive, however this unreasonable vendetta against Martin Pegg must end.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Pegg´s book doesn´t deliver what a book with 340 large format pages should be able to do. There is simply nothing classic about his book excepting the word in publisher´s name. And it is a classic example of seriously overpriced book in relation to its content. If you still insist on praising that one, feel free. Don´t just expect to be treated as real aircraft enthusiasts then.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Still stirring the shit, eh, Jukka. And now you would sit in judgement as to who are and are not real aircraft enthusiasts. The old 'book price' rears its head from you again. Let's spell this one out for you: BOOK PRICE IS NOT CONNECTED TO CONTENT. As you may have bothered to read in the past thread, there are a whole host of costs and considerations to be taken into account in arriving at the cost of a book, not least of which is the need for the publisher to remain a viable ongoing financial concern so that they can continue to publish books in the future. Why do I get the feeling that you do not understand (or choose to ignore) this fundamental principle of publishing? I suspect because it does not fit into your way of thinking, and arguing a point.

Keep on stirring, Jukka.

From an unreal aircraft enthusiast.

Re: New Stuka book
 

And where exactly is it written down (a) what a 340 page book "should" be able to do; (b) what the indisputable definition of a "real aircraft enthusiast" is?

What you seem to imply is that you have your own opinion and cannot accept that anyone else's might have equal validity.

You bought (I presume) a book which you found disappointing. We've all been there but it's time to get over it, don't you think?

Re: New Stuka book
 

John, indeed the content has no connection to book pricing in this case. But, 340 large pages in one language have much better possibilities to accommodate detailed data than the 62 biligual pages of the MBI book. Still, the latter has better tech descriptions. That is my point and has been all the time.

Real aircraft enthusiasts are simply more interested in the aircraft than e.g. air force award politics.

BTW Nick, I have your Ghost Bombers book and I like it. It delivers exactly what it promises to deliver.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Jukka,
What you have highlighted in your first paragraph is that different works have different content, largely driven by the author's approach, and each work brings different things to different people. The many works on the Battle of Britain clearly show that. You can read ten books on the Battle of Britain and gain different information from each of them. If someone else had done a work on Erprobungsgruppe 210 instead of me, then the end result would undoubtedly have been different. I think this leads us on to your second paragraph. Aircraft enthusiasts are a real varied bunch. You will not get two who will agree 100% on any single subject. And that, I believe, is a good thing, as it stimulates debate and makes people think. We can at least agree that Martin Pegg's 129 book has made you think, and has stimulated debate among several contributors to this Forum. I think also that his 129 book has at least contributed something to our overall knowledge of the Luftwaffe in WW2 in some small way, even if that has not been to all people's satisfaction. I feel the same about several other books myself. But I appreciate that the author has brought something out that would otherwise not have been available. There is value in just doing that.

Re: New Stuka book
 

Jukka, as you can see, since you failed to inform us exactly where it is possible to find the material which you specifically demanded should have been in Pegg's book, I am afraid that most people here now think that John Vasco is right that you are just a jealous fool who babbles about things you know nothing about only in order to get a cheap shot at the serious researcher and author Martin Pegg.

Dénes, John, and Nick - it seems we've formed an authors defence bloc against cheap shots at our books. :)

As one of you once told me when we talked about this, we all seem to have our "anti-fans" who are obsessed with what we write and do. It's nice to see that we come together and defend one of our colleagues who isn't present here.

Re: New Stuka book
 

What a wonderful show of Western civilization and tolerance! Hitler should learn from you! ;)

Actually, I happen to differ with Jukka on several aspects, like what is pro scanning, etc.
In this particular case I have to agree with him.
While Martin Pegg's book was groundbreaking on operational issues, it is not a monography of Hs 129. If the title was 'Hs 129 Panzerjaeger - an operational history', then perfectly OK.
Perhaps most of you are not interested in technical details, your choice. But your claim that because of that you find it boring, Jukka should not demand them, does not say very good about you.
You do not even find the difference between history enthusiast and aircraft enthusiast. This is a key difference, although none of the parts can be separated. That happens that the aircraft and its employment is combination of political, technical, tactical, and whatever you can imagine, reasons. See at Me 262 - there is a discussion if the delay was caused by political (Hitler) or technical (lack of proper engines) reasons, thus affecting further tactical use of the aircraft.
You do not like it, go on, but do not wrtite that you authored aircraft monographs and do not claim obvious technical nonsenses concerning eg. Soviet aircraft.
Finally for Denes. Hs 129s were captured by Americans, Britons and Soviets. There were certainly detailed technical descriptions. If there is no surviving performance data, it may be quite accuratelly calculated from another data.