New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Just to say got the final version of Arnaud's book. Great bit of research and for me the story and conclusions are very credible. Pleased to have assisted Arnaud in a very small way.

Iain

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Hi Iain

Tell us more! What is the subject? Is it in French or English?

Cheers
Brian

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

I was thinking that-Hawker Fury perhaps?

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Fingers out gentlemen. This is Gillet's long-anticipated account of events over Sedan on May 14, 1940, (see TOCH post by Arnaud dated April 3, 2010). We still await Many Souffan's alternative version of events but if this has already been published (possibly in 'Avions' ?) then I apologise for having overlooked the fact.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Ah that makes things clear which the original posting did not (unless one already knew which Brian & myself & no doubt others did not)

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

The "fury's head" (from a famous painting by Michelangelo) was the insignia of one escadrille of GC III/7, involved (after Gillet) in the shooting of friendly aircraft over Sedan on that fateful day.
I'd have rather called it the "spitfire's head", but it could have been still more misleading...

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

My apologies, I should have referred to the subject matter of the book.

regards

Iain

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Hello.

I have finished reading the book of Arnaud Gillet, the title is "La Furie" the Fury. I would like to be in Fury, but I can't so my consternation is deep...

88 pages in format A4, Left page in French, right page in English. The subject, the possible mistake of the French "Groupe de Chasse" GC III/7, the 14th may 1940, which would have been able to shoot down Fairey Battle in place of Hs 126.

Maybe some readers remember the long thread and for some, boring (May 14th 1940 and few little things) where Mr Gillet said, he was sure that 7 pilots of GC III/7 shot down 4 Battle for 4 Hs126 the 14th may 1940.

So, why to write a special issue about this fact? (Without introduction). In this book Arnaud Gillet change a little the story. Now the French Pilots has shot down 3 Battle and a French Bomber: a Leo 451 a twin engined medium bomber with 2 drifts.

Arnaud Gillet had modified some hours to reach to his conclusion, he did some arrangements with the facts, with the translation of the words of 2 German Sergeants and an unknown Officer, the three belonging to the Grossdeutchland Division. When the officer speak about “Messerschmitt 126” Mister Arnaud Gillet write exactly: “which were in fact Fairey Battle”… Without a little “maybe” or a little “possibly”. He is always sure...

Sorry for my silence and my delay about my article (to lose 4 very close persons of your family this last 2 years is not evident for whoever). But be sure Peter, my article will be published in Avions n°177, issue of September with all infos, all documents some photographs and the address of the archives about the loss of Hs 126… Sometimes the truth is more simple then we think...

Sorry again for my bad English.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Thank you Many. I look forward to considering the merits of both cases. My commiserations on your recent losses.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

I agree with Peter that we must now look forward to the alternative version.

Meantime a few other points from Arnaud's book that are interesting:

Arnaud spotted Hobler in a couple of photos from the phoney war in the IWM 'C Series' (402 & 403) so they must be of 142 Squ - be grateful if anybody can identify some additional faces.

Hobler's plane is now almost certainly (from French records and various photos) P2195 and not P2246 as stated in the ORB. P2195 is definitely the much photograhed wreck at Artaise which finished up at the edge of the road. For those who have a copy of Peter's T&N there is a photo of the wreck at p394, although there is no grave as captioned. The camera angle is just misleading on a fencepost and the top of the ditch.

The issue of timings is interesting. The draft 142 Squ ORB has timings not included in the finished version. But why? We can only hope some log books surface !!

Best regards

Iain

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Hello Ian.

I agree with you only for the Battle P2195, It is proved also by English Archives: Aircraft casualties AIR35/196 at the date of 14th may 1940. the only one Battle described is the P2195.

The timing given by Arnaud Gillet is wrong. The take off of the 76 Wing ( 12, 142, 226) was 3 PM and as I will explain in my article, S/L Hobler received from a personal call from a high officer to take off early than 3 PM after he learned the failure of the mission of the French Bombers.
And Hobler, himself, said he took off 20 minutes before 3 PM with another Battle. 142 sqn was the first off all Battle squadrons to take off this afternoon of 14 may.

The GC III/7 took off at 0.25 PM for a free chase in Zone, not to protect the French bombers in their mission, the base of the III/7 was in fact bombed the 12 & the 13 may and their mission( in low altitude) this 14th may was to prevent a new attack of the German bombers. It was for the same reason that the GC I/3 with their new Dewoitine d520, was also in free chase but in high altitude.

Another thing about these French pilots of III/7 They knew very well the Battle, they shared the base of Mourmelon during the fall 1939 with 88 Sqn equiped with Battle.

The last thing, I would like to say, to understand the events, you must put in perspective what happen on earth with the Panzer Divisionen, very important, because the luftwaffe units of Hs 126 were attached to these Panzer Dv (1, 2 and 10) and all they did during these times were written in the diaries of the Heer.

And you will see that the French claims and the German losses ahave the same hour, the same minute and the same place for the 2 first losses of Hs 126.

Now, I know, that I will nevermore trust the work of Arnaud Gillet. he have written in his last book that the fourth battle was in fact a French medium bomber of GB I/12 n°48 before to explode a witness saw 2 parachutes. One of the 2 parachutes was Henry Lebeaupin. I have his account.

1/ the take off of the bomber was the morning,
2/ the bomber was shot down by Messerschmitt 109

As he has written to his parents from the stalag. When he go down slowly to the earth he was surrounded by the messerschmitt 109, wounded, he reached the earth among the panzer, he rememberered he was put on a panzer with others French prisoners, and went to Chéhéry, he had to answer some questions, after he went to the hospital of trier, and after a stalag...

after that how to believe this author who write this conclusion:
" Regarding the archives of III/7 & I/12 groupes, it is now public knowledge that the account concerning this account is far from the truth..."

It is easy to say it is a good work if you don't know that the hours were changed to give a good proof for the concordance of the facts, but unfortunatly the approach of the facts are not in this book from an historian. or maybe a mystic historian.

I will publish all the proofs and you will think it was more terrible than you could imagined.

I feel more sad than happy to have written above...

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Here's another photo of the same Battle as on page 364 of (T&N) . I didnt know which Battle it was.

Dave

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Good evening,

Please Ian could you let me know more about this No 142 Squadron ORB last version. As far as I know there is no No 142 Squadron ORB available before 1941.

G-ASEA, thanks for you photograph. Obviously the same Fairey Batlle as the one shown in Peter's book, and obviously no grave.

I am myself searching the history of the RAF in the Battle of France.For sure a hard work ( destruction of documents, confusion, numerous movements, etc...). I am convinced that Many Souffan is right, that these
Battles and this Leo 451 were not shot down by the pilots of GC III/7. It sounds like a Holywwod story board and the demonstration is weak and lacks of acceptable arguments and evidence.History is not to be interpreted by imagination but demonstrated by documents and strong evidence.

I have read Mr Gillet " Fury " and I am astonished that he could ever think that this work was worth publishing.

I am looking forward to read Many's conclusions. I am sure that he will demonstrate his position in a real historical method.

Very best regards.

Bernard.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Bonjour à tous.
(Good morning to all)

Thank you G-ASEA for the photograph

Thank you Bernard for your encouragements, I will try my best.

Officially my article will be published in Avions n° 177 issue of august/September. But in Avions n°176 issue of June/July it will possible to read my little article about Jean Demozay, one of the greatest French pilot of WWII, it will be a foretaste of his bio I Will publish at the end of year....

Ian, The photograph page 364 of Peter's book is "probably" not the "kite" of Hobler. Read what he said about this particular landing of this 14th may 1940. "This went on as we came down towards the two trees and I managed somehow to put the nose of the aircraft somewhere in the middle of them. As we hit, the trees folded the wings back, stopping our descent and averting what would have been a bald, flat-out crash. so we slithered onto the ground in that manner, very undignified, with the Germans not very far away and heading toward us like mad.... But I agree with you as I have written in my previous post it is really the P2195 he flew and not P2246


Last thing, I would like to know if someone have heard or maybe see about the: Midland Aircraft Recovery Group ?????

Have a nice day for all.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Bernard,

You will find the No.142 Squadron ORB from September 1939 microfilmed at NA(PRO) Kew in AIR27/972. Thank you for your opinion on 'Fury' and good luck with your own research into the RAF in the Battle of France.

Ian,

The point about the incorrect photo caption in my Battle of France Then & Now is well made. It was the only view of that aircraft available to us at the time, and a simple error to make, though closer examination should have revealed the truth of the matter. However, since publication some six views of the crash site at Artaise have surfaced none of which allow me to identify the serial number with any certainty. So please help me understand how you are able to state that it is 'definitely' P2195. A PM will do if you prefer.

Many,

Thank you for your comments. As you can see, there is still considerable interest in resolving (as far as possible) the events of that afternoon so your account is eagerly awaited.

No.76 Wing aircraft were first off that afternoon because they were first to receive attack orders from HQ AASF (14.15 hours). Three half-sections (i.e. two aircraft apiece) were tasked to attack Bridge 1 (Wadelincourt), Bridge 3 (Douzy), and Bridge 5 (Mouzon) at 15.00 hours. Two more half-sections were to attack Bridge 2 (NW of Remilly-Aillicourt) and Bridge 4 (N of Villers-devant-Mouzon) ten minutes later with five further aircraft being sent against roads in the area. This is consistent with HOBLER's account that he took-off with one other aircraft. Attack orders to No.71 Wing came from HQ AASF at 14.20 hours and those for No.75 Wing followed at 14.40 hours. (HQ AASF ORB NA(PRO) AIR24/21).

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Hello Many & Bernard

Thanks for your comments.

Firstly on whether P2195 at Artaise is Hobler’s plane.

From photographs (a Srl. No. visible, others with village in background) and local French records (via Arnaud) stating P2195, it is certain for me that P2195 is the wreck at Artaise and it is indeed is the same as the wreck at p364 of Peter’s book.

I stated P2195 was ‘almost certainly’ that of Hobler as I was aware of the quote now cited by Many (from ‘Valiant Wings’) referring to the wings being folded back. However it is burnt-out (consistent with Hobler’s burns), contemporary photos show trees at the top of the hill behind the wreck, it certainly appears to have slithered down the hill (note the severe bending back of the props), and P2195 was recorded as lost that day. Indeed I have seen a German photo captioned ‘17.5 Artaise’.

Also there is another problem; if it is not Hobler’s plane, what other burnt out 142 Squ wreck – located in enemy territory as at 14 May - is proposed in the alternative to P2195 as being that of Hobler? And who flew P2195, if not Hobler?

Hence, on balance, I’d still go with P2195 confirmed at Artaise being ‘almost certainly’ the Hobler plane (my only reservation is the account of wings folded back).

Secondly on Timings.

In respect of the 142 ORB. I’ve not seen the ‘draft’ referred to by Arnaud (stated as being held by the Midland Aircraft Recovery Group) but there is a 142 Squ ORB for May and June 1940 at the PRO (AIR 27/972) and I have a copy to hand as I type. The timing in that ORB for the ‘Hobler operation’ is given as 13.30, the same time as per draft ORB via Arnaud (not a different time as I previously thought). I would take 13.30 as a reported ‘planes up’ time but it is much earlier than both the Hobler account and the timing of the orders being issued.

However the 142 Squ ORB document at the PRO needs to be treated with great care. It was written after the return to England. In Fly Past (Jan & Feb 1990) it is stated it was written by Sgt Rudd in early October 1940, almost four months after the return from France. I now quote in full, from that publication, the letter from Rudd to W/C Saddler dd 11 Oct 1940

Sir

I submit for your approval, prior to typing, this record of the Squadron’s work in France. It has been compiled to a small extent from matters available in the Operational Files, partly from private sources, but largely from memory. Owing to the discrepancies of dates and times, frequent time lapses and oft-times hazy or only partial recollection induced by the rapid sequence of events, and in spite of the check and cross-check of information thus gleaned, errors no doubt exist.

Nevertheless, these I believe to be few and of inconsequential moment in so far as they do not greatly affect the facts.

Although I feel sure all sources of information are now exhausted, if anyone can offer corrections to or further matter for this record, then I will gladly co-operate to achieve a more satisfying degree of completeness.

Hence, hardly a definitive contemporary record !!! I presume ‘private sources’ in this context would be mainly referring to aircrew Log Books. I have found Log Books to be reliable docs, but we can not know the sources of individual data in the ORB. It is worth mentioning that 103 Squ also wrote up their ORB after returning from France. For context this is the introduction to the 103 Squadron ORB:

The following summary of operations has been compiled from pilots log books and from memory, since the original squadron records were lost in the final evacuation of the squadron from France. Every care has been taken to obtain accuracy, but the authenticity of the detail cannot be guaranteed.

I would speculate the writing up of the records may have had something to do with the delayed AASF gallantry awards in November. In any event the weight of evidence points towards to the 13.30 timing being incorrect.

I certainly continue to keep an open mind on these events and very much look forward to Many’s version. The records for the Battle of France are fragmented and sometimes conflicting. It remains a constant challenge for us all to not jump to conclusions !

Hope these (somewhat long) comments help.

Kind regards to all

Iain

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Please advise me where I might see a photo showing P2195 on the wreck at Artaise. I don't dispute it, I merely haven't yet seen any clear evidence of the fact. Many thanks.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Peter

I have images which confirm. Pleased you don’t dispute it and, of course, I’m happy to show you the clear evidence. Send me a PM note of your email address and I’ll forward this evidence to you.

In the same spirit I would interested in seeing/understanding the evidence for some of the plane losses detailed in Battle of France T&N; doubtless we can do that outside this forum.

Kind regards

Iain

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Good evening Iain,

I feel confused about your last post wich I feel ( I may be too sensitiive ) is against the spirit of this forum. As you can see, the posts about this topic have been read quite a lot of times by I suppose many members. And now as you seem to be able to show a clear evidence, you intend to send it only by PM to Peter........
What about us ( I mean other members of this so precious and rich forum ). Aren't we worth to know.
Strange....

Bernard.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Bernard

Strangely Sensitive indeed

For me the common currency (Spirit?) of this forum should be courtesy and a focus on facts.

If you review my posts on this forum that is what I have sought to do.

The facts are - Peter was the only member asked for 'the evidence', he suggested private message, and I have no idea how to upload an annotated word file to a post.

I suggest that next time you have such an issue you post a more polite message, having first taken the truble to get the facts.

Lastly, more generally, I have found some of the posts on this thread more personal and emotional than necessary. Emotions get in the way of good judgement, so this member at least would prefer more moderation in the tone of the posts.

Kind regards

Iain

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Iain,

Many thanks for the confirmation - I am totally satsfied that it was P2195 photographed burned out at Artaise. I will, of course, be pleased to compare notes with you on other Battles down in France in 1940 and am happy to do so 'off-line' as you suggest. Thanks again.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Hello Ian.

I don't know if it's too much for you, I would like also to see this évidence with your photo. Naturally, if you want.

I think I am concerned as the same level as Peter with this thread. So I can send you my private email by PM.

Thank you.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Sure Many, no problem, will send to you straight away.

Kind regards

Iain

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Many - you'll need to send me your email address, thx, Iain

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Hello Ian.

Thank you very much, I send you my email address by PM

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Hello Ian

Thank you very much.

Obviously, the proofs are 1000% correct, nothing to say more. it is the P2195.

Now, the question is, is it really the kite of Hobler ? nothing say that ?

In AIR 35/196 AASF aircraft casualties, the only one Battle of 142 sqn. found for the 14th may is the P2195 where are the others ?

Between the account of Hobler in Valiant Wings and the photograph, there are some differences. Even my English is not good, I understand the words "Folded back" and it seems there are nothing in these wings. I was photographer (professional and artist) during 23 years I may to advance my conclusion.

I am sorry to not show a photograph of a wreck of Battle ( I will share with who want after the printing of my article) without wings and it seem's stopped by trees (it is surrounded by trees). Naturally I have no proof actually that is the Battle of Hobler, we can see only QT-H. This photograph is more closed to the account of Hobler... that all.

Thank you again Ian for the photograph.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Many

Thanks, glad that you also agree the ID.

Afraid I can not answer your question on AIR 35/196; but as you know the records are seldom fully accurate nor complete.

In respect of your photo of ‘QT-H’ ‘without wings and stopped by trees, surrounded by trees’ I would be cautious.

There are a huge number of photographs of a QT-H facing forward from the edge of a wood. I have noted the bomb crater under wing in many photos, the cut poles, the wheels visible and having been seemingly blown forward under the wings and many photos marked ‘bei Reims’. I take the images as highly consistent with an aircraft bombed in its standing. Refer IWM C401 for a 142 Squ aircraft in standings and note the consistency of the surrounds with those many photos of QT-H.

142 ORB for 16 May states:

The Squadron left Berry-au-Bac by convoy. Two a/c were left unserviceable in their standings, one in “A” Flight, K9259 (which had received a direct hit during the enemy bombing raid on 12.5.40) and one in “B” Flight L5880. A third aircraft which was standing on the aerodrome was sabotaged by F/Lt Wight.

As L5880 is not a valid Battle Srl No so it is a miss-type and I take L5440 (after researching possibilities)and that would be my main contender for that QT-H.

I wonder if the angle in your photo could be deceptive? I have seen photos of the fuselage of QT-H that does indeed deceive by appearing to be in a wood but I have seen no photo with wings off. I have also seen photos of a QT-H seemingly dragged forward from the standing but those photos clearly show the wings still on.

Of course I have to accept that ‘your’ QT-H may be a different plane that has crashed into a wood and has lost it’s wings. However if that is the case it is almost certainly a replacement plane to 142 Squ after the retreat from Berry-au-Bac (in order to account for the ‘H’ plane code) so it would not be the Hobler plane.

As I’ve noted previously on this thread my only problem with P2195 as being Hobler’s plane is his wings ‘folded back’ comment. Everything else fits and I am aware of no better possibility. Remember also that as he was crashing the plane he was under sustained ground fire, then the plane hit trees, then immediately skidded on the ground and he finally suffered burns. So I am inclined to forgive his precise recollection of the ultimate plane damage - absent any more credible clear alternative.

In any event I very look forward to your article and photograph.

Kind regards

Iain

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

As Ian states their are many photos of a Battle QT-H in front of a hedge. This aircraft looks bomb damaged. The propeller has not bent, So i would think it had not been crash landed. See photo.

Dave

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Of course...

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Dear Iain
A while ago Ed West posted two photographs of a Battle QT-H apparently force-landed and a photo of the rear section with the s/n L5231. I never saved the photos at the time and only have two poor photo copies. I know the two seperate photographs are not proof positive of the a/c, but I value your opinion as to the possibility that this QT-H could be Roth's a/c.
kind regards
David.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Dear Iain
here is the attachment which didn't go on the last post.
David.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

I have had a look over the QT-H question.

I attach two images (in one file). By looking closely at markings on the fuselage (note particularly to the left of the ‘H’ plane code) I am confident the images are of the same plane.

One image shows the propeller unbent and the camouflage netting stakes in the background and, significantly dirt piled on the wing – all consistent with the image Dave (G-ASEA) posted.

On the other image the front of the plane is not visible but the surrounding trees are in the background. The dirt piled on the wing in the foreground is deceptive and gives the appearance of the wing not being present.

Could this be the answer to Many’s QT-H photo question?

I’ll do another posting on Dave Gaydon's question, hopefully this weekend.

(also hopefully I’ve now mastered up loading files to this site!!)

Kind regards

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Hello Ian
The photo I have is exactly the photo you show (upper side) in your file, and I think also it is the same plane that the G-ASEA show.

Maybe the difference between the photo of G-ASEA and mine, the first, the Germans tried to use some woods to lift up the plane.

And for mine the dust or sand recovered the wings, with the feelings that the Battle has not his wing. And was taken early before...

Thank you (and sorry for my bad English)

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Dave

Responding on your question re QT-H and L5231.

Firstly I am always cautious on 142 Squ IDs due to the ORB not being contemporary and the errors in plane IDs for 14 May, compounded by the difficulty of reading Srl Nos on photos (indeed anybody got a Srl for QT-L or QT-I???).

However I was surprised that L5231 was proposed as QT-H

My response is that the Roth plane is certainly QT-G crashed at between Longeau and Messancy just inside the Belgium - Luxembourg Border. There is a photo of this plane at p182 of Then and Now. I have seen your tail shot showing the srl no L5231 before and it was attributed to this plane, consistent with ORB.

So on the face of it difficult to explain how the same tail shot is now attributed to QT-H?

However I attach a photo of QT-H in similar position to the QT-H photo you attached. I make the following points.

- the prop of ‘your’ QT-H appears unbent, so not a likely crash
- note in the attached the paint damage on the H plane code consistent with photo of QT-H in standing previously attached in this thread
- there is a lack of damage on the tail plane in the attached which conflicts with the serial no ID photo (though this is not conclusive evidence they are of different planes)
- importantly the trees in the background of the attached are not at all consistent the background in the serial no ID photo

So on balance I suggest the tail shot with L5231 is correctly attributed to QT-G.

Hope that helps – happy to listen to other ideas, see other evidence….

Kind regards

Iain

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Dear Iain

Thank you for your response and the time taken to answer my query. I was curious to the possibility but i can now see that the photos, although they were grouped together, are of two seperate aircraft.

Kindest regards
David.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

I like this article :

http://www.lunion.presse.fr/article/...le-14-mai-1940

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Arnaud,
For sure you like it.
I guess that the man who wrote this, went to KEW and checked german archives before to write this.......
You are spoiling the memory of men who lived events in the real life but not in your imagination. I am sure some day ( and it will be soon ) you will have to assume it.
Sincerely yours.
Bernard.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Peace...

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

and truth....
Bernard.

Re: New book 'Fury', by Arnaud Gillet
 

Hello.

Just few words to say that my article about the 14th may and the possibly friendly fires of French fighters is printed out since yesterday in Avions n°177. (11pages)

Thank you