Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

Hello,

I've been impressed with the depth of research demonstrated in the discussions on this forum. I am trying to locate research materials relating to both German and Soviet air units involved in the Kursk battle of July-August 1943. Any help in finding primary sources relating to the unit histories of JG's 51 and 52 would be greatly appreciated.

Specifically, I am trying to flesh out the day to day activities of several pilots, who seem to have had particularly interesting days during 5 July 1943-August 1943.

Erich Hartmann flew with Krupinski on 5 July, and was affected by Krupinski's hospitalization following a disastrous avoidance maneuver on landing with a damaged plane at Ugrim. I am curious who was wingman for Hartmann during Kursk, and also who Krupinski's wingman was on 5 July.

I have also read that Krupinski claimed 11 kills on 5 July 1943 before his ground loop accident. I am curious if this is widely accepted, or if the specifics of time place altitude and type of enemy are known. Is a copy of Krupinski's logbook for the period available?

Another story I am trying to look into comes from Toliver and Constable's "The Blonde Knight of Germany". If I read it correctly, it indicates that Johannes Wiese achieved 12 kills on 5 July 1943, and also was forced down himself 5 times! That seems like a hugely busy day, and I have been seeking details of Wiese's forcedowns. I wonder if this was a translation error, as I have found another source which indicates Wiese was forced down 5 times over the course of his career. Can anyone clarify this?

Finally, regarding JG-51 during Kursk, the story of Hubert Strassl downing 15 Soviet planes on 5 July is quite remarkable. If anyone has any information, or knows of resources either confirming or refuting this story, I would greatly appreciate the help.

I have questions about the Soviet forces arrayed in the North and South of the Kursk bulge, but I will post those later in a separate thread.

To everyone who posts here, thank you for providing your insights and research. I feel this is one way to keep history alive and relevant.

Christer Bergstrom, your book "Kursk-The Air Battle:July 1943", is a tremendous help. Thanks.

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

Pawel Buchard has an excellent site dedicated to the air operations for the Battle of Kursk - I do not know the URL offhand. Presumably someone else who posts here might have it.

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

Thank you, thenelm!

I did not know of Pawel Buchard's site. Much appreciated.

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

Hi,

for the first combat (04.45-04.50 a.m.) of Fw. Hubert Strassl from 8./JG51 on 5th July I have as follows:
18 Yak fighters of 157 IAP were attacking some 25 Ju 88s escorted by Fw 190s III./JG51 in the area of Maloarchangielsk-Wierchnaja Sosna. Two Yak fighters were shot down: Kpt. W.N.Zaliewskij and Lt. Anufriejew bailed out. Further four Yak fighters had been damaged. Two Ju 88 and 9 Fw 190 were claimed as shot down but later these claims were downgraded to 3 Ju 88 and 2 Fw 190.
Source: W.Gorbacz "Awiacja w Kurskoj Bitwie" pages: 44-45.

Regards

Robert

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

Excellent, thank you for the information and the source, Robert.

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

Try this site

http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/pawel/index.html

Also Kursk The Air Battle July 1943 by Christer Bergstrom, published by Classic Publication in Great Britain

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

With regards to Krupinski and his eleven claims on 5th July 1943 it's a myth, he made only two claims on this day(89-90)............he was actually never really a big day scorer, his best day by far was six on 10th October 1943(144-149)! and his claims seem quite reliable, whereas Hartmann's are allegedly not, though I should think that all least the first seventeen before 5th July 1943 were. With Wiese he had twelve confirmed and one unconfirmed this day, he is a strange case, a hard-liner who had ninety unconfirmed in total......he wasn't short of witnesses, but just couldn't be bothered to submit the paper work and was JG52's top Il-2 destroyer, which is something that Hartmann never really got into........he seemed to avoid not only anything at low altitude, but also anything that could fire back, allegedly he was not very popular!

Regards

Johannes

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

John, thank you for the link. Good site. Much appreciated. Christer Bergstrom's book is a great suggestion as well, one which I continually return to.

BTW, in case this hasn't been previously noted, the book "The Luftwaffe", part of the Time-Life Epic of Flight series, has 8 pages of interesting photos of Erich Hartmann. I only mention this because the photos seem to be from his personal collection, and I have not seen them anywhere else.

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

Johannes, thank you for the clarification! Very helpful. If you have suggestions for me to read concerning these men I would greatly appreciate it. Again, thank you.

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

Zalievskiy was HSU and perished in this combat.

As regards to Strassl, he possibly was involved also in the combat with La-5s of 486 IAP (his victories at 10.34 and 10.36) when 7 La-5s were shot down, including regiment commander Maj. Pelipets (captured) and squandron commander Kap. Ovsienko (missing).

In general 16 VA losses were about 100 planes for July 5, 1943. That makes 6 LF fighters overclaim roughly about 1:1,5 (not taking into consideration Flak claims).

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

Vitaliy Gorbach's two books on the air battle at Kursk are good reading but they are only in Russian. He does list Strassl and G. Rall as reliable scorers in this battle. Hartmann is listed in his last book as claiming 4 on the the 03Aug43 with the III/JG52 claiming approx. 30 kills for that day. The II/SchG1 and NAGr2 each claimed a Il-2. The 5 VA and the 2 VA had 40 aircraft lost on the 03Aug43. In the book it states that they had a large number of damaged aircraft. Also a number of Il-2's making forced landings behind their lines and being recovered.

Johannes, Didn't Hartmann get shot down by a Il-2 gunner from the 8 VA in Aug 43? Bergstrom listed him as the victor over a number of Soviet aces in his last book.

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

Hi CJ

Forward me your e.mail address and I'll send you Strassl, Wiese, Krupinski and Hartmann's full abschusse lists.

Regards

Johannes

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

I just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone who has responded to this thread. Very helpful.
I will try to get Mr. Gorbach's books, thanks for the suggestion Nokose.
Johannes, thank you for the help and the generous offer.

Thanks to all of you!

V/R
CJ Mohr

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

Nikita, the information on Strassl and his victims' identity are hugely helpful. Thanks.

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

Am I to assume from your thankful message that the massive claims of Strassl during the battle are verified from russian sources ?

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

Actually, those days from July 5 up to July 15-17, claims are not subjected to correct identification, since there were too many clashes and too many claims.

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

No, nothing like that. I don't have the Russian records supporting Hubert Strassl's claims. But I was interested to hear the specific HSU holder who was killed in the combat. For me some of the interest is in finding these linked stories.

Re: Seeking help with research about JG-52 and JG-51 during Zitadelle
 

I'm not sure which fail to who and the times but it does relate to Strassl for the 08Jul43. Following from the book by Gorbach and Khazanov and Tony Wood's list.
Losses:
8 GBAP
A-20B St. Serz. Ivanov & crew MIA
A-20B St. Serz. Tarantin & crew MIA
A-20B Lt. Polikanov : Attacked by EA, left motor caught fire, forced landed in the Kalinovka region, fuel tank exploded. two crew members perished and two survived.
A-20B St. Lt. Loskutov's crew MIA

57 BAP
A-20B Lt. Kandrashin Hit by AAA, repeatedly attacked by EA. Forced landed in the D. Khmelovoe region. Three crew members WIA and 1 MIA.
A-20B Kosobokov's crew MIA

Lt. Guenther Scheel 2/JG54 8:04 Boston 63 561
Oblt. Franz Eisenach 3/JG54 8:06 Boston 63 563
Ofw Richard Brand 10/JG51 8:08 Boston 63 574
Uffz Heinrich Dittlmann 7/JG51 12:17 Boston 63 812
Ofw Hubert Strassl 8/JG51 12:27 Boston 63 675