Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Hello all

Hauptmann Johannes Kiel (at least 20 victories, RK), Gruppenkommandeur of III./ZG 26, was shot down and killed in aerial combat with USAAF fighters over Kirchheimsboloden on 29 January 1944. Although he perished his Bordfunker was able to bail out successfully. Would anyone have the loss list information for the Bf 110 G-2 that he was flying that day? Obermaier does not list this information so perhaps it is not available. Many thanks.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Aircraft details are not listed in the Ring report for ZG 76 either!

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

and not listed in the "Namentliche Verlustmeldung" of the WASt.

khorat

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Leo:

As well as I know (Peter will correct me if I am wrong), Hptm. Johannes Kiel was Gr.Kdr. of new formed III./ZG76, wich received most aircrafts from II./ZG1 and III./ZG26 (he was StaKa in III./ZG26 before appointment).

Also, he was killed by B-17 gunners, I think he was attacking from rear after launching his WGr.21, and was unfortunate to catch a burst from Rear-gunner(s) from bomber formation. Thats why his gunner was able to bail out.

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Can confirm just the first part. The second one, about attack circumstances is highly probable, but not confirmed...

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Thats what I've read somewhere...
We must try to mach this (and all other III./ZG76) losses with USAAF fighter claims onthat area and day.

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

quite nice joke, to match usaaf claims with losses...
:)

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

"WHO SAID HERE SOMETHING ABOUT OVERCLAIM?!?!?" :)

Hahaha,yep I know.

Let s just findout,how many claims had USAAF fighters andbomber gunners on that day.

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

here are known claims...

LIPSCOMB LAWSON L 1LT AO00666964 308FTR SQ MTO 1,00 Bf 109 440129 1,00
SKINNER WILLIAM J 2LT AO00795656 308FTR SQ MTO 1,00 Bf 109 440129 1,00
BRYAN DONALD S 1LT AO00727398 328FTR SQ ETO 0,50 440129 0,50
COLEMAN JOHN B JR 1LT AO00667040 328FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 2,33
QUINN QUENTIN L 1LT AO00732360 328FTR SQ ETO 0,50 440129 0,50
BEESON DUANE W 1LT AO00885184 4th FG 334th FS ETO Aachen, Germany 1,00 Bf 109 440129 8,00
BEESON DUANE W 1LT AO00885184 4th FG 334th FS ETO Aachen, Germany 1,00 Fw 190 440129 9,00
CHATTERLEY ARCHIE W 1LT AO00885418 4th FG 334th FS ETO Aachen, Germany 1,00 Bf 109 440129 1,00
FRANCE VICTOR J 1LT AO00885176 4th FG 334th FS ETO Hasselt, Belgium 1,00 Fw 190 440129 2,00
MILLS HENRY L CPT AO00885187 4th FG 334th FS ETO Aachen, Germany 2,00 Bf 109 440129 4,00
PISSANOS SPIROS N 1LT AO00885405 4th FG 334th FS ETO Hasselt, Belgium 2,00 Bf 109 440129 4,00
WHALEN EDMUND D 1LT AO00886143 4th FG 334th FS ETO Aachen, Germany 1,00 Bf 109 440129 2,50
LARSEN HARRY E 1LT AO00743347 338FTR SQ ETO Frankfurt, Germany 1,00 Fw 190 440129 1,00
BEERBOWER DON Merrill CPT AO00730341 353FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 3,00
MESERVE ROBERT L 1LT AO00442289 353FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 1,00
GUMM CHARLES F JR 1LT AO00730466 355FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 2,00
LASKO CHARLES W CPT AO00730540 355FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 1,00
MACURDY HAROLD H 1LT AO00673400 358FTR SQ ETO Koblenz, Germany 1,00 Bf 109 440129 1110 1,00
MACURDY HAROLD H 1LT AO00673400 358FTR SQ ETO NW Aachen, Germany 1,00 Fw 190 440129 2,00
L'HEUREUX ROBERT C 1LT AO00795991 360FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 1,00
GRAY ROCKFORD V MAJ AO00427720 369FTR SQ ETO 0,50 440129 0,50
OLIPHANT JOHN H 2LT AO00674390 369FTR SQ ETO 0,50 440129 0,50
DAVIS CLAYTON E 1LT AO00666887 487FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 1,00
MERONEY VIRGIL K 1LT AO00732305 487FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 4,00
PREDDY GEORGE Earl CPT AO00430846 487FTR SQ ETO Malmedy 1,00 Fw 190 440129 3,00
WHISNER WILLIAM T JR. 1LT AO00798190 487FTR SQ ETO 1,00 Fw 190 440129 1,00
HOLMQUIST GEORGE W MAJ AO00397394 523FTR SQ MTO 1,00 440129 2,00
FREY ROYAL D 2LT AO00746079 55FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 1,00
HALLBERG CHESTER A 2LT AO00746096 55FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 1,00
MCLARY MAURICE R CPT AO00441851 55FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 1,00
BENNETT JOSEPH H CPT AO00431841 61FTR SQ ETO 1,50 440129 2,50
GABRESKI FRANCIS Stanley LTC AO00406131 61FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 9,00
NEYLAND PRAEGER 2LT AO00686864 61FTR SQ ETO 0,50 440129 0,50
WOOD MELVIN C 2LT AO00736450 61FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 1,50
CAVALLO ANTHONY S 2LT AO02044946 63FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 1,00
ANDRUS IVAN I 1LT AO00798143 65FTR SQ MTO 1,00 440129 1,00
BOND RICHARD T 1LT AO00730355 77FTR SQ ETO 0,50 440129 0,50
FLYNN ROBERT S 2LT AO00746072 77FTR SQ ETO 0,50 440129 0,50
MACHEN EVAN J 1LT AO00730549 77FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 1,00
WHITESIDE WALKER L 2LT AO00736439 77FTR SQ ETO 1,50 440129 1,50
GRAHAM LINDOL French CPT AO00791302 79FTR SQ ETO 3,00 Fw 190 440129 3,00
OTT RICHARD L MAJ AO00416336 79FTR SQ ETO 1,50 440129 1,50
JONES VERNON Y 2LT AO00799572 82FTR SQ ETO 0,50 440129 0,50
MARTINEZ MANUEL S 1LT AO02044858 82FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 4,00
SWANSON WILLIAM S 1LT AO00793026 82FTR SQ ETO 1,00 440129 1,00
DAYHUFF HARRY J LTC AO00404135 78th FG ETO 0,50 440129 1,50
SCHILLING DAVID C LTC AO00393204 56th FG ETO 1,00 440129 9,50

can someone add the types where missing? to exclude single engine fighters....?

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

So,it gives following unknowns:

328FTR SQ - 1 pers. + 1 shared between two pilots.
353FTR SQ - 4 pers.
360FTR SQ - 1 pers.
369FTR SQ - 1 shared between two pilots.
487FTR SQ - 4 pers. (2 Fw190 and 2 unknown)
523FTR SQ - 1 pers(but note MTO)
55FTR SQ - 3 pers.
61FTR SQ -3 pers.+1 shared between 2 pilots
63FTR SQ - 1 pers.
65FTR SQ - 1 pers. MTO
77FTR SQ - 1pers.+ 2 shared between 4 pilots
79FTR SQ - 4 pers (3 Fw190) + 1 shared between 2 pilots
82FTR SQ - 2 pers. + 1 shared between 2 pilots
78th FG - 1 sharedwith another pilot
56th FG - 1 personal.

Peter - what was overall losses of III./ZG76 for that day?And for all participated Bf110G +Me410A?

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

I was born near that place Hptm Kiel crashed - his and other Bf 110 this day, was shot down by P-38´s (1 loss pf a P-38 not far away), somewhere at my home in germany I had also the Encounter Reports of the US Fighter Pilots - will see next time I´m there, but remember there is one 99% match. But sorry now, bit to far away from home.

khorat

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

I Gruppe 4 destroyed, 2 damaged planes
II Gruppe 2 destroyed, one or two damaged
III Gruppe at least 2 destroyed

That is a high number to match with claims, when we do not know details...

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Khorat - do You remember a squadron for those P-38's?

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Only lost planes P-38s were of 20.FG, 77th and 79th Squadron lost two each...
here were are on a hunt Evgeny :)

Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Hello guys

Many thanks to all who have responded. My apologies for the III./ZG 26 and III./ZG 76 error but Obermaier has him listed with III./ZG 26 which explains my mistake. It is truly a shame that we do not have the relevant information concerning his final aircraft considering that he was a Gruppenkommandeur and Ritterkreuzträger. What is odd is that it appears we do have the loss list information for when he was shot down on 7 April 1940 which is rather rare:

Bf 110 C "3M + AL" (W.Nr. 3205) of 3./ZG 2 flown by Leutnant Johannes Kiel (prisoner of war) and Unteroffizier Werner Ehm (killed)

I have seen that he was shot down by Sous.Lt Francois Warnier of GC I/5, Armée de l'air on this occasion.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Thanks Leo for these details...I list his next affiliation upon the return from POW camp as with I./ZG 26 in May 1941...

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Johannes Kiel:

1.9.39 - 7.4.40, with 3./ZG2, when he was shot down and became PoW.
june 40 - 6.4.41 - pilot in 3./ZG26
7.4.41 - appointed StaKa 3./ZG26
1.5.42 - appointed StaKa 6./ZG2 (I./ZG26 redesignated II./ZG2 on 31.4.42)
15.5.42 - transferred to unknown unit.
1.10.1942 - came to Erprobungskommando 16 (Me 163 project)
5.8.43 - appointed StaKa 7./ZG26, Hauptmann (well known picture with him in front of Bf110G-2/M5, with code of 7./ZG26)
1.11.43 - appointed Gr.Kdr. of new formed III./ZG76.
29.1.44 - KiA

Ehrenpokal (23.9.1941.)
Deutschen Kreuz in Gold (9.2.1942.)
Ritterkreuz (18.3.1942.)

Had ~20 claims:
At least 5 during BoB
On 23 April 1941, sunk 3 torpedo bouts in Suda Bay, Greece.
During Barbarossa campaign, sunk U-Bout in Baltic Sea in early autumn 1941.
To the date 9.2.42 had 10 (?) victories.
16.2.42 claimed 3 MiG-3, raised up his tally to 16 victories.
18.3.1942 got RK for ??? victories, 62 a/c destr. on the ground, 9 tanks, 20 Flak positions, 3 cargo ships, 3 torpedo bouts, 1 submarine sunked, also destroyed 16 locomotives.
On 17.04.43 claimed B-17 with 8./ZG26 (????)

Thats all I know about that pilot.

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

yap was th 20th FG - if Remember right Lt. Moss bailed out - around 10 km ne of Kiel´s crash side.

khorat

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Hello all,

for your information, these were the claims made by 20th Fighter Group pilots against Luftwaffe twin-engined fighters on 29 January 1944, 6-0-1 in total:

2/Lt Royal D. Frey, 55th FS, 1 Me 110, Undenheim
2/Lt Chester A. Hallberg, 55th FS, 1 Me 110, Undenheim
2/Lt Walkter L. Whiteside, 77th FS and Maj Richard L. Ott, 79th FS shared 1 Me 210, SW of Frankfurt
1/Lt Evan J. Machen, 77th FS, 1 Me 110, SW of Frankfurt
1/Lt Richard T. Bond and 2/Lt Robert S. Flynn, both of 77th FS, shared 1 Me 210, SW of Frankfurt
2/Lt Richard C. Garrett, 77th FS, 1 Me 110 damaged, SW of Frankfurt
Maj Richard L. Ott, 79th FS, 1 Me 110, Mainz

This information comes from Kent D. Miller´s Fighter Units and Pilots of the Eighth Air Force (it is likely that Frank Olynyk´s ETO claim list can provide more accurate locations and times of the individual claims, but unfortunately I do not have this list).

Hope this might help a little,

Ota

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Gentlemen
question: was ZG 26 in the air? and suffered any losses or victories on January 29, 1944? If not all the Me 110s are for ZG 76 in that area, as NJG 6 was a bit more north...?

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Hi collegues,

please open the following link with losses of both sides on 29. Jan.44 :

http://www.geiger-roland.de/Historis...rz29011944.pdf

Hope this helps a bit, Karl

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

nice one..thanks

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Hello All,

based on Frank Olynyk unvaluable USAAF ETO Victory List, the 20th FG claims were:

2/Lt Royal D. Frey, 55th FS, 1 Me 110, Undenheim 11:45
2/Lt Chester A. Hallberg, 55th FS, 1 Me 110, Undenheim 11:40
2/Lt Walkter L. Whiteside, 77th FS and Maj Richard L. Ott, 79th FS shared 1 Me 210, SW of Frankfurt 11:50
1/Lt Evan J. Machen, 77th FS, 1 Me 110, SW of Frankfurt 11:50
1/Lt Richard T. Bond and 2/Lt Robert S. Flynn, both of 77th FS, shared 1 Me 210, S of Koblenz 12:00
2/Lt Richard C. Garrett, 77th FS, 1 Me 110 damaged, W of Frankfurt between Moser & Rheine River 12:15
Maj Richard L. Ott, 79th FS, 1 Me 110, Mainz 11:50

Other Zerstorer claims on 29.01.1944:

2/Lt Anthony S Cavallo, 63th FS, 1 Me 210, SW of Koblenz 11:55
2/Lt Anthony S Cavallo, 63th FS, 1 Me 210 prob., SW of Koblenz 11:55
Capt. Clifton Shaw, 368th FS, *1 Me 110 dam, vicinity of Malmedy 12:15-12:20
Maj. Rockford V Gray (0,5) and 2/Lt. John H Oliphant (0,5), 369th FS, 1 Me 110, Dison 12:20-12:30
2/Lt. Luster H Prewitt, 368th FS, 1 Me 110 dam, Dison 12:20
Lt/Col Francis S Gabreski, 61th FS, 1 Me 110, S of Koblenz, W of Frankfurt 13:04
Capt. Joseph H Bennett, 61th FS, 1 Me 110, Simmern 13:05
Capt. Joseph H Bennett (0,5) and 2/Lt. Praeger Neyland (0,5), 61th FS, 1 Me 110, Simmern 13:05
2 L/t Melvin C Wood, 61th FS, 1 Me 210, Simmern 13:05

*= claimed destroyed

Hope this helps.
Best regards.

Marco

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Thanks Marco,

In fact all Me 210s should be Me 110s as well. None unit equipped with Me 210 was involved. So all three Groups of ZG 76, NJG 4, 5, and mainly NJG6 planes...

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

ZG 76 losses (29.01.1944)
1 Bf 110 near the city of Hermeskeil,FF + BF bailed out, plane was armed with 3,7cm Flak 18
1 Bf 110 Forsthaus Abtei FF KIA, BF bailed out, plane was armed with
3,7cm Flak 18
1 Bf 110 near Enkirch/Mosel, plane crashed, Crew wounded, plane was armed with 3,7cm Flak 18

Losses also from NJG 101, NJG 6.

One Bf 110 from NJG 6 has an dogfight with 20th FG, Uffz. Nidderl claimed an P-38, then was bounced by two other P-38, his Gunner claimed another P-38, but all then crashed to dead.

Re: Hauptmann Johannes Kiel - 29 January 1944
 

Hi Hans

About those three losses you mentioned. Are there any excavation evidences about the 37 mm Flak 18 equipment? I am interested to hear about it more...please PM me..
Thanks.