2 JoeB about KW
 

Could you please clear a couple of points for me:
1/
According to available to me data on 18 may 1953 518 IAP lost two planes and 1 pilot, against 2 claims. US claimed to shoot down 7 Migs by 51 FW and 4 by 4 FW. Non of the KW vets to whom i have talked recalled any painted MiGs. Is it possible that there was an engagement with Chinese or Korean AF MiGs? Any data about Dragon-painted MiG?

2/
Could you provide me with information about:
RB-29 №44-61810 was shot down on 13.06.1952 in USSR territoreal waters by Proskurin and Fedorov from 7th IAD TOF and RB-29 №44-61815 Shot down over Kurile islands by La-11 from 368 IAP - Zheryakov and Lesnov on 7 october 1952.
I wasn't able to find them in Korwald, sorry if missed them.

Re: 2 JoeB about KW
 

Neither are in Korwald because both are Cold War losses, not Korean War losses. If you Google on the aircraft serial numbers, and wade through a small amount of garbage, you will find some websites which discuss their loss. Crew names, etc.

Frank.

Re: 2 JoeB about KW
 

Both B-29s were from 31\91 SRS, actively participating in combat against Soviet pilots in that same ToO. What's the reason to exclude them from KW losses?

Re: 2 JoeB about KW
 

I've never seen any photo or account of MiG-15 in Korea with large artwork, that's a very interesting account. Some propaganda photo's of PLAAF MiG-15's in Korea sport relatively large red Chinese lettering near the nose, which just says 'Chinese Peoples Volunteer Army Air Force'. It might have mistaken for artwork, but wasn't a dragon all the way down the fuselage, and I've never seen any US reference to that lettering either. It might or might not have appeared on a/c in actual combat.

By May 1953 PLAAF and KPAAF MiG units combined readily outnumbered the Soviets, in potential order of battle at least, though perhaps less so in actual rate of sorties. Per Zhang in "Red Wings over the Yalu" the Chinese 4th, 6th, 14th, 15th, 16th and 17th Fighter Divisions were involved in Korean operations in that period. Per the North Korean defector No Kum-sok, so was his 1st Fighter Division KPAAF, and at least one other NK MiG-15 division.

I don't know however, any specific account of combats May 18, 1953 by the Chinese or NK's.

As for RB-29 'Cold War' shootdowns, dividing these from 'Korean War' losses mirrors the way the Soviets and US both viewed it at the time, as well as how they cooperated (or are still cooperating to some much more limited extent) in joint research about POW/MIA's of the period, from 1990's. The fighter units responsible for the shootdowns were not part of 64th Fighter Corps in Korea so joint research in that units' records wouldn't explain them. By the same token, such incidents were typically not mentioned in intelligence summaries of 5th AF or Far East Air Force about Korean operations, since they didn't happen over Korea; although the unit involved did operate and suffer losses of other a/c over Korea.

Btw, the link I have for Korwald is dead, does anyone have a new one? DPMO itself had a separate page about Cold War air incidents, but link I had is likewise dead.

Joe

Re: 2 JoeB about KW
 

JoeB,
When I Googled on KORWALD it pointed me at DTIC, but when I went there I got the "Page not found" error. Google's cached copy is dated May 31, 2010. I know KORWALD used to be on the DPMO website, so maybe it is being moved to DTIC, and they don't have it up yet; or have restricted access to the pages. I will have to check my computer at home, because I used to pull the entire KORWALD website down regularly. Up until they stopped putting a date on the files. I did it a few months ago (half a year?).

In any case, what I have always wanted to locate are the references at NARA II that Ken Maynard used to build the database. Do you have any of the NARA II links, especially for 1953? I can't find the FEAF/5th AF DIS for 1953. Or contact with Ken, after he retired a number of years ago?

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: 2 JoeB about KW
 

according to what i found additionally about Dragon MiG it was credited to Jim Tompson from 51stFW. He even got an artwork to commemorate this event
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxve_Z0

Re: 2 JoeB about KW
 

FPSOlkor,

It is not the MiG-15 that has the dragon painted on it, it's Jim Tompson's F-86 (I am not sure that name is spelled right). Color photos of The Huff have been published in several books.

Frank.

Re: 2 JoeB about KW
 

I know. Read above.

Re: 2 JoeB about KW
 

Now that I see the commemorative dragon so relatively near the nose, I wonder more: could lettering like this possibly be mistaken for an art work image, perhaps even a dragon, in the heat of combat?

http://www.airforceworld.com/pla/gfx/mig15/mig15_1.jpg

Joe

Re: 2 JoeB about KW
 

To be honest, i doubt it. To be mistaken this lettering has to be in green colour at first place, which is not likely - simply for better view irritating colors were used, at least in VVS... But - haven't been there, haven't seen it. And 11 claims by USAF against 2 losses is very serious overclaim level

Re: 2 JoeB about KW
 

I don't doubt combat with Chinese or North Korean units that day. We can't generally judge US credits v Soviet-only losses day by day at any time after September 1951. And OTOH I've concluded that Russian authors like Seidov are just guessing when they say particular US victory credits which appear as overclaims v the Soviets only *were* in fact v Chinese or North Koreans. We just don't know in most specific cases, yet. Specific combat accounts I've counted up from Chinese published sources amount to around 1/2 their total official claims in the war, but a much smaller % of their total official combat losses. Obviously the selection of specific accounts to publish over the years has emphasized the positive from the PLAAF point of view. But for May 1953, it's extremely likely F-86's engaged Chinese or NK a/c in any day of large scale combat, just frustratingly that the specific info from PLAAF/KPAAF isn't available yet, AFAIK. And, the worse a day May 18 might have been for the PLAAF, the less likely their account of it would have surfaced.

Joe

Re: 2 JoeB about KW
 

True, true... All I meant that any overclaim has to have an explanation, but here we are on a slippery way of "guessing game"... And I believe there must have been a combat with Chineese or NK fighters too, but have no way to prove it...

Re: 2 JoeB about KW
 

As far as I know, CPVAF never painted those characters during the Korean War. Some old CPVAF pilots said that those characters were painted for taking the propaganda photos AFTER the armistice.

Re: 2 JoeB about KW
 

By this time, most of the PLAAF MiGs were camoufled, colours like of the related "Dragon" theme can be really difficult to see in a plane with schemes with various greens and (or) wavy lines. Slogans were quite usual in natural metal planes and also red tail or cone tail section, sometimes also wings tips.


Daniel

Re: 2 JoeB about KW
 

Daniel,

According to a radar operator of CPVAF 15th FAD, CPVAF's MiGs never had camoufled paints nor any other markings than the NPKAF insignia.