Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

Could somebody give some details about this secret message : there are traget locations for bombing :

Target 1 : 155 degreed AX 1 23 miles.
Target 2 : 150 degreed AX 1 27 miles.
Target 3 : 142 degreed AX 1 27 miles.
Target 4 : 145 degreed AX 1 32 miles.
Target 5 : 149 degreed AX 1 30 miles.

I need a specialist examination. This is a difficult one...

Thanks

Re: Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

Arnaud

Are there any clues as to what (or where) AX is? Is it an airfield?

Presumably the message(s) relate to a specific RAF Squadron? If so, is AX their home base?

Without further clues then I suspect it will be a bit of a challenge to unravel, unless somebody just happens to know the answer!

I think we possibly also need a few more clues as to what exactly you need to know.

Re: Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

Five targets suggestive of the Sedan bridges on May 14, 1940 ? But reciprocal headings and distances from there doesn't place you near any known Battle bases that day. As Andy says - more information would be useful. We enjoy a challenge but ...

Re: Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

Bonjour Andy and Peter,

I am working on air bombing on Sedan on May 14 1940. There are codes sent from A.A.S.F. headquarters to squadrons for bombing those targets.

M. Norman Franks wrote in his book Valiant Wings :

Target n° 1 : South of Sedan
Target n° 2 : Remilly
Target n° 3 : Douzy
Target n° 4 : Mouzon
Target n° 5 : Mouzon

I have some problems with those targets for many reasons too long to explain. This secret code could help me once it is understood...

Thank you for giving your feeling or suggestions to find some informations in the National Archives.

This is important, and I will be very thankful if we could manage to solve this problem...

A bientôt

Arnaud

Re: Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

Erratum :

Not sent to squadron HQ, but to wing HQ.

Re: Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

Arnaud,

The RAF Narrative of the Campaign in France and the Low Countries September 1939 - June 1940 compiled by the Air Historical Branch is held under (NA)PRO Reference AIR41/21. Appendices and maps are filed separately.

Re: Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

Could they be the bearings and distances from a single, common, navigation/turning point (Point "AX") to the 5 different targets?

To test this idea, does working backwards on reciprocal courses for those distances from the Sedan bridges lead you to a single point (AX)?

Just a thought.

Ian

Re: Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

Hi Chaps

I think my idea above may work, with point AX (or maybe AX 1) being the starting point at Fumay on the southern stretch of the river where it loops round and comes back closest to itself in the reverse 'C' shape around the town.

I haven't measured the bearings but the distances seem pretty much correct from there to the bridges at the places described.

You can see this on the Daft Logic website which gives you a 'Google Maps Distance Calculator' from which you can find cumulative distances from point to point on the map.

1. Start by placing the first point on the bridge at Douzy (0 miles)
2. Put the next point as I've described above at Fumay (you can move it around to make the distance exact). The distance comes up at 27 miles!
3. Now put a third point on any one of the other bridges (Sedan, Mouzon, Remillly) and the new cumulative distance, less the initial 27, seems to give (near enough) the correct distances as per the list: 23, 27, 30 or 32 miles. Again you can move this third point from one bridge to another and see how the cumulative distance changes. Deduct 27 each time to see the distance from Fumay.

So my guess would be that the starting point AX or AX1 was the river feature at Fumay, from where the various target bridges were on the distances and bearings given.

I haven't measured the actual bearings but visually they look approx ok and the relative distances seem to tie-in.

Anyone agree with this theory?

Ian

Re: Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

Hi all

Have re-checked the distances, moving the points slightly to measure them from the hospital in the centre of Fumay (in the middle of the 'reverse C-shaped island') and this gives the following distances to the bridges [figures in brackets are those given in Arnaud's original post for comparison]:

Fumay hospital pinpoint to bridge at:
Douzy - 26.82 miles [27]
Remilly - 26.62 [27]
Mouzon (SW) - 31.18 [32]
Mouzon (N) - 30.93 [30]
S of Sedan - 23.34 [23]

The two at Mouzon are slightly out but would I'm sure be near enough for aerial navigation purposes.

Ian

Re: Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

Bonjour Ian,

Your method seems good. Locations given by M. Norman Franks are here just for help. The original question was to check if there are right or wrong.

According to your method, distances seems right. Did you check your method with the degrees ?

For the two objectifs at Mouzon, one was in fact 1.500 m N. of Villers-devant-Mouzon (a well-known barrage). The second one is either one or several bridges in the village or in the south.

Thank you for your research...

Re: Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

All

Ian’s theory looks plausible.

Firstly in respect of the targets for 14 May the grids for the three of the five pontoon bridges are in the 71 Wing orders to 105 Squ (retained in 105 ORB)

Pontoon bridges:
49˚ 42’N, 04˚ 53’E:
49˚ 40’N 04˚ 59’E:
49˚ 39’N 05˚ 02’E

Bridges as targets at MOUZY and DOUZY are stated in the 142 ORB.


Secondly the use of target identification from reference points seems common in the Wing Orders to Squadrons that survived in the 226 Squ and 105 Squ ORBs. Tthey use a similar referencing style to that cited by Arnaud. Here’s two extracts that reference AX1;

_______________________________________________
Date: 21/5/40
To:- 12, 142, 226 Squadrons
From:- 76 Wing
Target: Large revictualling yard reported alongside railway in approximate position 180’ AY1, 15 miles (see tracing for exact position) and landing ground immediately S.E. of village at 220’ AY 1, 22 miles
Other Info: 75 Wing attacking AR 1, AX 1 and 142’ AX 2, 14 miles during night
________________________________________________

So AX1 clearly not a friendly location at 21 May !!


______________________________________________
Date: 24/5/40
To:- 12, 142, 226 Squadrons
From:- 76 Wing
Target: Enemy main communications passing through the focal points at AR1, AR2 and AX1




In corroboration of AX1 being Fumay the 142 Squ ORB records that Fumay was one of the targets attacked on those orders. 142 Squ ORB:

‘Target at Dinant’
‘hits on a convoy at Fumay’
‘Attacks were also carried out in the River Somme area near Courcy’

Hope this helps
Iain

Re: Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

Iain,

For that point :

"Firstly in respect of the targets for 14 May the grids for the three of the five pontoon bridges are in the 71 Wing orders to 105 Squ (retained in 105 ORB)

Pontoon bridges:
49˚ 42’N, 04˚ 53’E:
49˚ 40’N 04˚ 59’E:
49˚ 39’N 05˚ 02’E:"

Does someone can identify that or those targets... ? To locate a point we need a longitude and a latitude : for instance Sedan is : longitude : 04° 56' 43'' East, Latitude : 49° 41' 56'' North. Is it right or is there another method ? Perhaps in U.K., it is difference from France ?

I don't understand those references ?

Thank you for any help...

Re: Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

Now, I understand...

Latitude 49˚ 42’N Longitude 04˚ 53’E: Point not very precise in the North-Est of Donchery

Latitude 49˚ 40’N Longitude 04˚ 59’E: a bridge at Remilly (road from Remilly to Bazeilles)

Latitude 49˚ 39’N Longitude 05˚ 02’E: a bridge at Remilly (road from Remilly to Douzy)

1) We have three targets : one not in Norman Franks' list also; the one near Donchery (new target)... I may be wrong, I am not a specialist with map... Any help welcome...

2) The original question of the five targets remains : is Ian's theory right with the degrees ?

Re: Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

Iain,

I have read again 105 Sqn ORB and Appendice and 71 Wing ORB and Appendice, but i didn't find those interesting locations. I have missed it. I know I have read them once but can't remember where there are... Could you give me the number of the folio and the reference to find it again ?

If Iain or anyone have some more precisions about those targets that day...

Merci

Re: Secret code : May 1940 R.A.F.
 

Bonjour to all,

Ian's theory have been checked and is right... But that method is not very presice... But as this is written in the document : "Brief description of bridges given from intelligence to wings". Those descriptions are indeed needed !


Thank you all

Arnaud