Trainbusting
 

Can anyone identify this location/railtrack, perhaps a bit difficult one...
The books "Krigsmaskiner" ISBN: 82-7365-127-4, 1988. (Warmachines) says it's from Norway 1943, could this be wrong?

regards,
Tormod Christiansen.

http://home.no.net/tormchri/web/beurail.jpg

Re: Trainbusting
 

Do you know the type of the attacking a/c from the context in the book?

Mikkel Plannthin

Re: Trainbusting
 

I would say that it is a Beaufighter, Mk. VI or later.

Juha

Re: Trainbusting
 

Juha,

Just curious - how on earth are you able to tell that from the photo?

Mikkel

Re: Trainbusting
 

I'll let Juha answer that, but I agree with him. However it might be a Mk.1c after refit.

The upperwing roundels are odd, though. The wide white rings suggest a early-war A roundel, which should not have been on the upper surfaces. If we assume that it is really a thin-ring C roundel, that would date the photo to 1945. Given that most similar Beau photos come from the Balkans in 1945, doubt must be passed on the date and place of the photo.

However, if they are right, then that's an interesting example of non-standard markings.

Re: Trainbusting
 

Juha,

No need. I am feeling a bit stupid due to the fact that I had not noticed the aircraft in the right side of the photo until Graham mentioned the roundels. Only then I scrolled. :-)

I got to have a higher resolution, so that this will not happen again!!!

Sorry, Mikkel

Re: Trainbusting
 

First post here after finding this wonderful forum.

Thought I´d add my 2c worth to the discussion. I´m leaning towards this aircraft being a Beau from Dallachy, possibly something like 489 (NZ) Sqn, or one of the other Beau squadrons based there and who were heavily involved in operations over the Norwegian coastline.

Also Tormod, there is a Norwegian book on the coastal attacks by the RAF which has a painting of an attacking Beaufighter on the cover´which could possibly help you. I can´t remember the name of the book but it was in the Bodø public library (when I lived in Norway) which was very good. I´ll see if I can dig up the name.

Re: Trainbusting
 

The roundels are pretty OK. I am certain those wide white circles are only an optical illusion and those are standard C1(?) ones - please note that quite often eg. white stripes seem wider in B&W photos, especially on those of poor quality. If it is Norway, I do not know, if so it is either 404, 455 or 489 Sqn.
Oh, those are definetelly forgotten boys awaiting their history to be written. I have done a little bit of research on their Polish escorts and it is fascinating stuff.

Re: Trainbusting
 

Guys, thanks for the overwhelming response to this post. This picture is truly a mystery for me. This was in of one of my first books about WW2 Planes/weapons, the book certainly looks well used by now!

Regarding the picture, I know about attacks on trains during the Norwegian campaign april-june 1940, but attacks AFTER this date on rolling stock in Norway was pretty scarce, or I'am wrong here? The point is that traveling in Norway (very generalized) excluding Coastal Shipping after 1942/43 and train riding in march-may 1945 (sabotage actions) was pretty safe, even for German soldiers. But I can't find any information from the Norwegian Railways (NSB, the same organization then as today) that such a attack was done on their Trains. Could the caption be wrong?

I will post a large high res. picture when I get to my study appartment since it will take ages with my dialup connection here :o

Regards,
Tormod Christiansen.

Re: Trainbusting
 

The Plane is most probably a Beaufighter, try to compare the picture with this one:

http://home.no.net/tormchri/web/beaufighter.jpg

Regards,
Tormod Christiansen.

Re: Trainbusting
 

This attack could be related to the picture:

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:_...rbo+1945&hl=no

"March 27 1945.
Flight Lieutenant Yourg, while flying an armed patrol of the Utsire—Naze area came across, and attacked a freight train near Naerbo, strafing it with cannon and machine gun fire."

Nærbø/Naerboe isn't far from Stavanger, and one sidetracks on this line was also used for German railroad artillery stationed there.

regards.
Tormod Christiansen.

Re: Trainbusting
 

I thought it was clear - it is definetelly a Beaufighter (look at the tail) and with such a markings it is T.X.

Re: Trainbusting
 

This is an interesting question but I think one that is not easily answered. It seems to me that the a/c is clearly a Beaufighter with the dihedral tailplane. Clearly there are at least two a/c involved in this incident including the a/c that took the photo. The appearance of the roundels is very likely to be the result of "flare" that as Franek says occurs a lot in B&W photos and from my experience can be exaggerated when photos are enlarged (as may be the case with this).

I wonder whether the style of the buildings might give some clues as to the locality are they generically "alpine" or specifically Norwegian? There are a lot of strike photos like this that were taken during Beaufighter operations over the Balkans in the winter of 1944/45.

Steve

Re: Trainbusting
 

Regarding the Architecture, I haven't been able to spot typically signs as Station buildings or Churches which is easiest way to identify the originating country/part of Europe. But I found some pictures from Nærbø/Naerboe.
Some of buildings on the attack picture are however clustered around a small area, which is very typical for a "Gaardstun" (farms) with some adjoining barns.

http://home.online.no/~pjhaalan/naerbo1.jpg
http://x-object.blockwatne.no/1/Webg...6113022697.jpg

regards,
Tormod Christiansen.

Re: Trainbusting
 

I agree that the plane is most likely a Beaufighter, but the version in the posted 3-view conflicts with a major recognition feature of the later model Beau in the photo - the pronounced dihedral of the rear stabilizers. Those roundels still puzzle me though.

Re: Trainbusting
 

[quote=TormodChristiansen]This attack could be related to the picture:

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:_...rbo+1945&hl=no

"March 27 1945.
Flight Lieutenant Yourg, while flying an armed patrol of the Utsire—Naze area came across, and attacked a freight train near Naerbo, strafing it with cannon and machine gun fire."[quote]

Tormod, I´m not so sure that this raid is what you are looking for. I´m pretty sure that "Yourg" is a misspelling and if so then this refers to Flight Lieutenant R.G. Young who was a Mosquito pilot in 248.

Interesting discussion.

Re: Trainbusting
 

Smithy, thanks for correcting me on this. I posted a picture of this attack on NUAV.net, hoping perhaps Andy Bird or other experts on the Norwegian air
war could recognize this attack, but I haven't heard anything yet.



Here's some higher resolution pictures as promised, (both tif and jpeg)

http://home.no.net/tormchri/web/beaularge-tif.tif


Regards,
Tormod Christiansen.
http://home.no.net/tormchri/web/beaularge.jpg

Re: Trainbusting
 

Hi Tormod,

I´m 90% certain now that this is Norway from looking more closely at the houses in the background of the picture, especially the roof shapes of these. There´s even one in the left background which looks very like a nordlandshus (although I´m not so sure whether if this is Norway that it is that far north).

Hopefully you´ll get some more definite answers from NUAV.net. I´d certainly love to know for sure.

Re: Trainbusting
 

Sorry Tormod, I actually think this is from Yugoslavia. There are certain houses in the background that has an alpine feel to them, with rather tall buildings with sharp roofs.

I am from Stavanger in the Southwest. The typical houses of the area around Nærbø and Jæren would be more low and drawn out, while some of the houses in that pic seem to be quite large, more like they'd be in the East of Norway.
Nordlandshouses are higher and more narrow as Smithy said, but we're talking about 1000 km off when it comes to location.
Another thing is the snow. While 44/45 maybe was a cold winter you'll seldom see snow covering the area like you do in that picture. Once in a while, yes, but it is/was rare. Admittedly it WAS colder with more lasting snow in the beginning/mid last century.
Compare the pic to what you see in this one showing IIRC 16 Sqn SAAF Beaufighters busting trains etc in Yugoslavia early 1945.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...d/ad882bfc.jpg

What are your thoughts?

Regards,
Kyrre
Harstad, Norway.

Re: Trainbusting
 

Tormod, just as a sidenote I thought I'd add that apparently the only attack made on Norwegian soil by a Norwegian Pilot after 1940 was when a 333 Sqn Mosquito bombed a bridge on the railroad Flåmbanen. Don't remember the details, though I have them somewhere. Maybe in the book Flyalarm?

Kyrre

Re: Trainbusting
 

Fantastic photo Kyrre.

Maybe I´m getting my snow and houses muddled up then :o

Although certain elements of Tormod´s photo still makes me think this is Norway rather than the Balkans.

Time I got back to Norge to refresh my memory! Although my girlfriend and I will be settling back there next year.

Hilsen Smithy.

PS - Kyrre, you would be the Kyrre from Modellers Underground would you?

Re: Trainbusting
 

Indeed. Same Kyrre.

Agreed, certain elements are Norwegian. It's flat, very typical of the Jæren area. Some houses look very Norwegian, and I would say many houses don't look very Yugoslavian... at least not how I've come to "see" yugoslavian houses. But then these here stand out as Non-norwegian:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...d/beurail2.jpg

Cya over at mug. We need to discuss this settling-in-norway-thing.

K

Re: Trainbusting
 

Hi guys.

It is a raid by 19 sqn SAAF on 14/2/45 in the area of Slovenj Gradec
lead by Capt Geater.
The markings is standard for the SAAF and it was a MK X Beau.
Stefaan Bouwer

Re: Trainbusting
 

Cheers, Stefaan.
Can you confirm that Tormod's picture was taken during this raid as well?

Kyrre

Re: Trainbusting
 

I have a better copy that I got from our SAAF museum with the data I gave on the back.

I also have many SAAF Beaufighter photo's with the same markings and many can be seen in our book SAAF at War.
19 and 16 sqn had Beaufighters and formed part of the Balkan Air Force.
I believe the photo may be of Geater himself as I have not seen another a/c in front.
The other photo quoted of the beau attacking the Village is the well known one also featured in an issue of the Aeroplane magazine and was flown be Stevens.
Stefaan

Re: Trainbusting
 

Kyrre,
thanks for your answer. As you probably saw in my first post, I only took some educated guesses on the location either in south west Norway (outside Norway) or more north, but your information about the architechture and weather conditions may turn this to an Balkan "affair". BTW what is your source to your picture?

Regarding your question about Norwegian pilots attacking Norwegian soil, did I specify that anywhere?? And does the attack on Porsgrunn Mekaniske (shipyard) /ships there by 333 sqdr. on March 30th 1945 be included there?
http://www.porsgrunn.folkebibl.no/bi...anlig_k008.jpg

Today:
http://home.no.net/tormchri/web/porsgrunn.jpg
Taken from D/F "Skarfos" July 2005.

I got inspired by some nice diving pictures you made of a Ju52 wreck on another forum (sadly I doesn't have the link anymore) Here's a picture of the forward MG-copula of the Ju52 displayed at Gardermoen. (CA + JY, Wnr 6657)

http://www.ju88.net/exhibitions/ju52-7.jpg


Regards,
Tormod.

Re: Trainbusting
 

Hi Tormod.
The Balkan picture was actually from the UK ministry of defense site. It belongs to IWM and can be found in several books about the Beaufighter. And now also in my album ;) . I got it by googling for "Beaufighter attack" and then clicking on the "picture" link on top of the resultpage.
IIRC during the Porsgrunn attack the Norwegians Løkken & Co in their Mosquito were acting as outriders and besides what the Mossies attacked the shipping and not shoreline installations. Well maybe they did but that was not the target.

When it comes to the railway bombings they were against a bridge at Flåm on the west coast IIRC and somewhere at the back of my head I remember it as being some time in 1944?

Thanks for the divepicture comments. I'll repost the Ju-52 pics in a different thread.

Kyrre

Re: Trainbusting
 

Thanks Stefaan for clarifying exactly where this is from. I could´ve sworn that looked like Norway :o

And Tormod, what a great photo from that 333 raid. Is that a still from the gun camera film which is on that video history of the Luftforsvaret during the War? Saw that in Norway and one of the volumes had some fantastic gun camera film from raids on shipping in Norwegian waters.

Smithy.

Re: Trainbusting
 

Hello Smithy!

They're from the Porsgrunn Library Photo-base, but the Pictures are most probably copied from the Norwegian Defence Museum.

The first picture is from the attack on Menstad Harbours outside central Skien.

http://www.porsgrunn.folkebibl.no/cg...t=a&spraak=eng


http://www.porsgrunn.folkebibl.no/cg...t=a&spraak=eng

http://www.porsgrunn.folkebibl.no/cg...t=a&spraak=eng

regards,
Tormod Christiansen.

Re: Trainbusting
 

Brilliant photos Tormod!

Those Mossie FBVIs certainly pack a hell of a wallop :D

And back to the Beaus, I found this link which has some good pics:

http://www.oldcmp.net/beaufighter_1.html

There´s apparently a monument to a Kiwi Beaufighter crew somewhere in Norway which I am keen to visit when I´m back in Norway but I can´t remember where it is.