![]() |
Condor loss February 5, 1941
Good evening,
I am looking for details of a loss of a Condor for that date, the identity, location and reason for loss. Thank you. Swifte |
Re: Condor loss February 5, 1941
0042 Fw 200 C-3 SG+KR Luftwaffe - F8+AH 1./KG 40 (Luftflotte 3) Based in France - OPS (F) Shipping off Scotland; hit by AA from ship SS MERCHANT C and crashed 08:00 hrs into hillside between Durrus and Schull, in Bantry County, Cork, Republic of Ireland 05.02.1941 (5 killed, 1 injured POW; Oblt. Paul Gömmert commanding..)
|
Re: Condor loss February 5, 1941
Merci. edNorth
Swifte |
Re: Condor loss February 5, 1941
More details available on http://www.crashplace.de, search by date for 5 February 1941.
The entry source is a site specialized in crashes in Ireland in WWII. |
Re: Condor loss February 5, 1941
Thank you Laurent, I had a look at that site but I am a little bit confused.
It has the ship listed as SS Majorca and SS Major C and the Condor commander listed as Gommer. Which may be correct? Was it in a convoy? Thank you. Swifte |
Re: Condor loss February 5, 1941
I have Major C & Gömmert
|
Re: Condor loss February 5, 1941
I took the crew names spellings as those presented on the http://www.volksbund.de/
Burial listings in Glencree German War Cemtery here in Ireland. Nachname:Gömmer Vorname:Paul Dienstgrad:Oberleutnant Geburtsdatum:13.01.1909 Geburtsort:Malstatt-Burbach Todes-/Vermisstendatum:05.02.1941 Todes-/Vermisstenort:Mt. Gabriel As regards the ship name, as I say on my website, and as copied onto the other one, some sources say the name was 'Major C'. This has been suggested to be an error for the SS Majorca, however that vessel also seems to not be the correct one. Whether this aircraft was damaged by gun fire is still open for comfirmation I think. Or at least the identity of the vessel. The question of the vessel has been asked a few times online: http://warsailors.com/forum/search.p...atch_forum=ALL http://warsailors.com/forum/read.php?1,32721,32721#msg-32721 The convoy SC20 was attacked on this date: http://www.warsailors.com/convoys/sc20.html I cannot recall if I know where the reference to Major C comes from. |
Re: Condor loss February 5, 1941
The name on the grave marker in the Glencree burial site is Oblt. Paul Gommer (o with umlat)
Dennis, I first came across the reference to the vessel SS Major C way back in the last century in Kenneth Poolman's Focke-Wulf Condor, Scourge of the Atlantic, at the time I wrote to him and asked him for the source of the vessel ref. He kindly replied but he could not recall the source and I think that vessel's name has been repeated ever since. The search goes on. Regards Tony K |
Re: Condor loss February 5, 1941
Thanks Tony, I went reading through what little I had on this and put two and two together again! The German ones are not my stonrg point!
Does anyone have the Luftwaffe loss records for this aircraft, I can't even recall what they are called again. I believe he is away buy M Gleeson who if he sees this will post also, looked up the records for the SS Majorca and found that it was sailing in the Irish Sea, close to the English coast and was a smaller vessel. Unless there were two such vessels. I searched ancestry.com records today for ship names and again the Major Wheeler was the only name of that kind I found. Maybe it was a quickly written note by Poolman that he misinterpreted, and thus we have it for posterity. I imagine the aircraft would be/could be hit by fire from a number of ships under convoy conditions?? |
Re: Condor loss February 5, 1941
Thanks to everyone for your very interesting help.
|
Re: Condor loss February 5, 1941
Hallo all,
. The events leading up to the loss of this Condor have to date frustrated the best efforts of myself and others for many years. To be more accurate it is what has been published that has caused us this difficulty. . Tony Kearns has traced the origin of the 'Major C' story back to Kenneth Poolman. After searching every source available to me as far as I can tell there never was a ship named the 'Major C'. At some point - I cannot remember when or why - our focus shifted to the SS 'Majorca', a real British-registered ship. It seemed plausible that this name had been corrupted into 'Major C'. . Some years ago I sought out any records on the 'Majorca' in The National Archives at Kew in London. (I am very grateful to Roger Hollywood, a naval expert who pointed me in the right direction). The Ship's Log (BT 381/1448) and the Movement Card (BT 389/20) survive and were revealing. However the 'Majorca' was a coaster of 1,126 gross tonnage, not an ocean-going vessel. It spent the war plying its trade around the smaller British ports and also to the continent in 1944-1945. . On 4 February 1941 the 'Majorca' as part of convoy CE 24 left Poole on the south coast of England for Blyth, just north of Newcastle-upon-Tyne and arrived there on February 10th. It appears to have been at sea on the 5th (according to its Ship's Log), somewhere between the Isle of Wight (4th) and Southend where it anchored on the 6th. Condors were simply not operating in these waters within sight of Britain's heavily defended shores at that time. So Gommer's aircraft could not have met the 'Majorca'. . It is also worth noting that the 'Majorca's' captain recorded significent events during its voyages, so if an air attack had occurred it would have been duly noted. For example in December 1940 the 'Majorca' was off Dover when it was hit by splinters from a shell fired by a German long-range gun on the French coast. On 26 January 1941 the ship's lifeboat picked up a German airman in Barrow Deep. He was later handed over to a Royal Navy destroyer. (Who was he and what were the circumstances around his capture ?). . Ed North in his post mentioned yet another ship, the 'Merchant C'. Perhaps Ed can confirm if this name came from the late Jerry Scutts very recent book on the Condor which records the involvement of both the 'Merchant C' and the 'Major C' ! One must suspect the former is a corruption of the latter. Again I cannot find a reference in any source to a 'Merchant C'. The only ship sailing on 5 February 1941in the North Atlantic area with 'Merchant' in its name was the SS 'Merchant Royal'. It was part of convoy WN 79 going from Clyde to Methil on Scotland's east coast. This appears to be another coastal convoy, presumably going around the top of Scotland ? I also have to query the Scottish connection concerning the supposed area of operations for this Condor. Again prior to Ed North's post I have only seen mention of Scotland in Jerry Scutts book. . It must be noted that Jerry Scutts in his work has a relatively lengthy piece devoted to this Condor loss with some new information as far as I can tell. However while some of the entry is accurate other details are surprisingly incorrect. . Jerry Scutts also introduces a 4th ship into the story around this loss ! He states Gommer's Condor attacked the Greek freighter 'Ioannis M. Embiricos' on the 5th, at a location approximately 325 km WNW of Malin Head, Ireland. It sank the following day and had been part of convoy SC 20. . Some days ago, prompted by this thread started by SWIFTE, I posted two queries around the loss of this ship on a naval forum and also a request for the take-off time of 'F8+AH' on this very forum. If we knew the times for the attack on the Greek ship and Gommer's take-off it would significently resolve the events before the crash. . Though it is very tempting to link the loss of 'F8+AH' to the attack on the 'Ioannis M. Embiricos', AT THIS POINT in our knowledge I remain sceptical. In favour of this scenario is the fact that due to the small number of operational Condors on any day in early 1941 there is a good chance it was Gommer's aircraft that attacked the Greek ship. At that location only a Condor could attack it. . Against this scenario are a number of facts. Firstly the aircraft crashed at approximately 0825 hours British Summer Time (0925 hours Central European Time). Any attack on the 'Ioannis M. Embiricos' by Gommer's crew would have to had taken place several hours earlier in darkness due to the ship's location. Secondly when the aircraft crashed it disintegrated and went on fire. Six unexploded 250 kg bombs - probably SC250s - were found around the wreck. A hand-drawn diagram illustrating one of these bombs and noting its markings is to be found in one of the Irish Army files on this crash. Thirdly the sole survivor Fw. Max Hohaus told one of the early Irish rescuersthat the Condor had a "Full load" when asked how many were on board. His English was very limited but that reply could have referred to a full bomb load. Later he said through an interpreter that the crew had lost their way in the prevailing fog and did not know where they were. Lastly based on observations by local people the aircraft was flying in a North West direction when it crashed. That is from France towards the general area where convoy SC 20 was under attack. . Also to add to the above if the Condor had been damaged by AA fire or whatever then the crew would almost certainly have jettisoned the bomb load in the sea before attempting an emergency landing. . I will put my neck on the block now ! AT THIS POINT in my own research I am convinced the 'Major C' / 'Merchant C' story (and any action off the southern coast of Ireland) is a red herring, a research trail that will lead to a dead end. Simply put to date we have found no details to support it. It seems most likely to me at this point that Gommer's Condor flew into high ground in bad weather en route to its allocated North Atlantic search area. However research never ends ! There are quite a few documents in the ADM199 series in The National Archives at Kew dealing with air attacks on shipping in early 1941 that I have yet to view. Next year hopefully ! . I hope this piece stimulates more debate on this crew and aircraft. . Regards, . Martin Gleeson. |
Re: Condor loss February 5, 1941
I too would be cautious of using the late Jerry's posthumous book as gospel. Some of his sources were very dated and inaccurate
|
All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:03. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net