JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

I have a question concerning one of the JU 88s downed on 15 August during the raid on Driffield. I have seen a photograph of 4D+DR and I know that it is an A model but I am unsure as to whether it is an A-1 or A-5. I hope that someone out there can help out with this.

Thank You,

Richard Strickland

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Hi, Richard...

I don't know what you can see on the source material you've been looking at, but generally speaking, the A-1 and A-5 were very similar externally. You can determine an A-1 because it has the shorter, original length wings, where the aileron forms part of the contour of the wingtip. On the A-5, the wings were similar to the later A-4, in that the ailerons were inset into the wing, and the entire wingtip was exactly that... a wingtip, and did not have any of its contour formed by the aileron.

Hopefully these thumbnails will help you identify the two sub-versions... A-1 on the left, from www.warbirdphotographs.com, and the other an old, long-past e-bay auction, I believe.

Regards,

Paul

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Richard, I know the plane in question. Picures of 4D+DR have been around for a long time (even the old Ju 88 A Profile has one). So far even I can not say for sure, as the published photos indeed do not show conclusive details.

Also I have not yet seen any proof it was one of those planes! The reasoning is also this: If it was so lightly damaged or complete, yet no mention is known of it in any evaluation or intelligance report. I whould like very much to know if there is one existing. But generally (mid August 1940), very few of the Ju 88 A-5´s had been delivered so more likely it was A-1.

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Hi Paul,
Thank you for the reply and the excellent photographs. Unfortunately, the photograph I am referencing shows the fuselage and the port inner wing but the wingtips are not visible. Thanks again for your assistance.

Best regards,

Richard

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Hi edNorth,
Thank you for the reply. You certainly raised some interesting questions concerning the aircraft in the photograph. Thanks again!

Best regards,

Richard

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Richard,

None of my photos of this incident resolve your question but the RAF Intelligence Officer who inspected the machine recorded its type thus: 'Ju88 Siebel Flugzeugwerke Halle K.G. Flgz. Muster Ju88A-1'. I assume that he took these details from a serial plate on the aircraft but they did not find their way into the relevant A.I.1.(k) Report which is No.267(11)/1940.

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Richard, are you aware that 4D+DR is not thought to have reached its objective, but 4D+KL did (see more below).

But ok. From the same reference as stated by Peter Cornwell (i.e. A.I.1.(k) No. 267/1940 - "List No.11" - but I was/am missing "the title page" and possibly more pages, and therefore did´t realize I indeed had same info against that one. My sorry). Also I have noted four crew names against 4D+DR (but unshure if they are against the correct loss - they should have been only three or four.)

But, no there is no mention of "Siebel" in that list... but most parts, despite finished as A-5, actually were the same as A-1 had. We just do not know what plate this info comes from. "Parts travel" between aircraft´s was considerable in the field and at repair stations as the war progressed.

I have the Luftwaffe GQM losses for this fateful day for I and III/KG 30 here in front of me. There is indeed one Ju 88 A-5 listed missing (100%) that day but against 3./KG 30 and "Flamborough Head" (four crew), against no less than two of I/KG 30 and three of III/KG 30 missing, two more crashlanding on landing (total seven): all last ones given as "Ju 88 C"´s (of which two are to be given the number of crew to reported of later, but three of the missing "C"´s are indeed noted with three crew each (which is correct for a Ju 88 C Zerstörer), all were mostly aimed at Driffield. Furthermore one more Ju 88 (no subtype listed) is mentioned lost 15.08.40 - of 4./KG 30 (II Gruppen) two crew dead, two missing.

But the singular Ju 88 A-5 is listed against 3./KG 30 (and four man crew) and therefore 4D+KL seems to fit the bill best but there were two more "C" from I/KG 30 lost also. So against this list (below) 4D+DR should possibly had been a "Ju 88 C" (but 4D+DR indeed it seems to be Ju 88 A model - with normally had four man crew).

The A.I.1.(k) No.267/1940 listings have only three investigated:

11. "Ju 88 4D+DR" as "Nr. Hornby"
12. "Ju.88 4D+KL" as "Nr. Bridlington",
13. "Ju 88 4D+-M" as "Nr. Hunmanby"

But there is likely more info I do not have, I do not have all I whished having. The A.I.1(k) No. 267/1940 does not offer conclusive info. But for what I see the photos often stated as of 4D+DR could well as be 4D+DP (II Gruppen) as that last letter is not entierly clear...

ed

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Well, sorry gentlemen, even I make mistakes. It transpires that likely all these "Ju 88 C" imentioned in Post #7 abowe had four man crews (per amendments in RL 2 III/1174 P.48 <Report 19.08.40, bottom, Lfd. 17 a,b,c,d,e.>) "Scribbling" and subsequent overstiking of numbers in each crew in first report leading to this "Gross error" and thus the entries concerning most if not all of KG 30 on 15.08.40 were wrongly read by me from the Microfice. So these were then not "Zerstörers". Sorry. The "C" likely standing for "Rústgrad C" (long-range fuel-tanks in both fuselage bays, bombs then only carried on external racks). Now I go for a freshing evening walk!

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Mr. Cornwell and Mr. North-
Thank you for your assistance. I do appreciate your offering your time and your expertise in helping with my question. Thanks again.

Best regards,

Richard Strickland

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

An account from one of the crew of 4D+DR (which I have as Wk Nr 5648/Ju 88 A-4 but I am sure Ed will correct me!) is in my book 'The Luftwaffe Bombers Battle of Britain'

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

It probably adds little, but the RAF Intelligence Officer who inspected these crashes located them as follows:

1) Hamilton Hill Farm Barnstown, four miles south of Brigg (4D+KL)
2) Fraisthorpe, nr Bridlington
3) Bridlington Road Reservoir, Fraisthorpe (4D+DR)

If transcripts from the IO's notebook are helpful I can post them.

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Chris, may I ask how you arrived at this sub-type and number? Any info or clues is valuable in this case. Corrections are never too late to make. A few Ju 88 A-5´s are indeed reported in GQM losses in BoB period (certainly one of KG 30 on of 15.08.40) but there were no Production A-4´s flying yet (only from about February 1941), and only from mid summer 1941 (Barbarossa) they began to appear in quantity.

5648 was Ju 88 A-4 of I/KG 60 (Luftflotte 3) Non-OPS (H) crashed and burned (100%) at Cazaux Airfield 19.02.1943 (F Lt. Peter Gebhardt, B Uffz. Walter Fritsch, BF Uffz. Friedrich Stephan and BM Gefr. Erich Preuß killed)

Andy, It certainly will be interesting to see these notes. I did not know any of such existing.

Best regards
ed

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Ed

Will post in next few days. Prob not until mid next week now. Meanwhile, for what it is worth, 4D+DR was built by Siebel Flugzeugwerke, Halle AG.

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Andy. No problem. Siebel was mass-producer (builder) of Ju 88 wings, also assembled whole Ju 88´s, but yes, this is then were that info comes from. But this is far from conclusive in determining the W.Nr.!

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Ed: I said you would correct me. I am not sure where the A-4 came from but I have a photo of the ac on display and looking at the stencilling on the cockpit, can read:

744 5648 (or possibly 5049)

There are another 3 digits under the last digit but these I cannot read

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Didn´t want to let you down Chris, but can you send a detail (or crop) scan of this lettering into my e-mail box. Printed copies are too unclear for me to guess at what this is. But 5049 does not fit, It was still flying in late ´41.

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Thanks Chris. From what I can now read (it´s not entierly 100% clear), but "possibly" this plane might have been Ju 88 A-1 W.Nr. 8043. But W.Nr. 8043 has a twist. W.Nr. 8o43 4D+HM 4./KG 30 is reported lost 06.10.40 (Likely the one crashed at Netherstead Fram at 00:55 hrs) but later entries in GQM losses have this number amended to 8045. But now another problem arises. The A-1 8045 also has another crash reported (now as Ju 88 A-5) with FFS C 6 on 04.05.43. But many other duplicate entries are known from GQM losses. But the plane at Netherstead had at least some Dornier parts "11.39" so that also indicates the GQM number might have been wrong (despite amendment).

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Highly interesting tread. I will ad some more information when I'm back from holiday. But I can confirm that KG 30 used both A-1 and A-5 in this attack, wich was carried out by I. Gruppe reinforced with 4. Staffel, and III. Gruppe reinforced by 6. Staffel.

Junker

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Gentlemen,

I make it 744 5848/95 beneath the cockpit but whatever the WNr, and I'm confident that will be resolved eventually, the last two digits were certainly '48' as these were also prominently displayed on the tailplane.

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Peter, Yes, I can agree with that its now likely resolved. Only all the digits you qoute are not correct, this should be (judging from other info I have) be "744 5048/95". I do not have an image showing the tail number ("48") but that then indicates this was W.Nr. 8048 (Siebel assembled). I very much like seeing this photo (or parts of it).

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Ed,

Image attached - WNr.8048 it is then.

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Thanks, much appriciated. Yes, many Siebel ones were marked with "last two" on nose or tail. Have a nice weekend.
ed

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Very interesting thread could I just check a few details on the KG 30 losses. My notes have three Ju88's crashing in the UK, I have the aircraft of Uffz Lorentz at Hamilton Hill as an A5 and that of Fw Bihr at Humandy as an A5 (NB these are from old sources which I no longer can find). Four aircraft coming down in the sea with 15 crew missing and one body recovered and three crashing on return. From QM's list dated 19th. Aug. two returning crashes are shown from III/KG30 ( the Airwar over Denmark site shows one from 8/KG30 as 75% at Aalborg-West with crew of Fw Matschke inj.). In addition QM's returns dated 17-8-40 shows the third as Ju88A-5 of II/KG 30 being 40% damaged at Oldenburg after crashlanding due to enemy fire on the 15th.
Are crew details available for the two Ju88's of I/KG30 shown as missing, one of them reported as off Flamborough Head.

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Hello,

Am updating the EOE Luftwaffe Data Base on 4D+DR. So do we now conclude that this is an A-1 with the W.Nr. 8048? Should the other III./KG30 losses that day be changed from Ju88Cs to Ju88As? Are these our conclusions?

Regards,

Re: JU 88 4D+DR 15 August 1940
 

Yes. No C models were used in this attack.

Junker