USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

Guys:

I was wondering if anybody here could provide me with info RE: of air-to-air losses suffered by the USAF(NOT the USN) during Freedom Train/Linebacker I;

I was reading Marshal Michel's book 'Clashes' & he commented that the USAF suffered 24( or was it 28??) losses to NVAF Migs---and he added that 18 of those losses were various marks of F4 Phantoms...an interesting statistic was that 9 of those losses were by F4s tasked with 'close escort' of the strike aircraft or 'chaff dispensing' aircraft; 6 were F4s tasked with 'MigCAP' duties; I recall from my reading that 3 'chaff dropping' F4s were also lost to Migs so presumably they round out the 18 losses;
(Interestingly enough, it doesn't appear that any F4s tasked as 'strike aircraft were lost to Migs)

So...what aircraft were the rest of the losses? Presumably several F105s flying Wild Weasel missions were lost but I didn't notice how many were lost--or if any other aircraft were shot down;

Thanks ahead of time;


NM

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

From he very detailed book Vietnam Air Losses by Chris Hobson that describes each and every USAF, USN and USMC fixed-wing a/c loss I could make out the following.

In the 10 May 72-12 Oct 72 period a total of 24 fighters were lost due to Migs (2 Mig-19 cannon, 1 probable Mig-19, 21 Mig-21 missile). Of these 24, 23 were F-4D/E and 1 F-105G.
You can add 1 F-105G as an indirect loss, when in a dogfight with a MiG a launched Sidewinder from the Weasel exploded prematurely and so damaged the a/c that the crew had to eject off Danang.
The tasks of the 24 lost a/c were: 6 CAP, 9 escort, 1 SEAD (F-105), 4 chaff, 2 SAR protection and 2 strike.
The other "indirect" F-105 was on a SEAD mission.

In Linebacker II the USAF lost 2 x F4E due to Migs.

Regards,

Leendert

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

Just to add that I only mentioned the USAF losses. There were some USN/USMC as well.

Regards,

Leendert

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

Thanks; USAF was exactly what I needed; so almost ALL the losses except for the F-105 were F4s; Do you happen to have the dates & details of the losses of the 'strike craft'?

Thx

NM

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

Ah well...no particular dates interest me actually; just the type of aircraft & the role they were performing when shot down;

AND another interesting factoid from Leendert's info: Michel said 18 of the 24 USAF aircraft lost to Migs were F4s; however Leendert's info seems to show that 23 of the 24 were F4s--and my count of lost chaffers was off too--AND also I also seem to have missed losses suffered by strike craft as well...I MIGHT want to re-read the chapter.

NM

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

Aug 26 1972
F-4J 155811 VMF-232 MAG-15 USMC shot down by Mig-21 1Lt Sam Gordova KIA 1Lt D Borders survived
Sept 11 1972
F-4E 69-0288 335 TFS 4 TFW USAF shot down by Mig-21 Capt Brian Ratzlaff POW Capt Jerome Heeren POW
Sept 12 1972
F-4E 69-7266 336 TFS 4 TFW USAF shot down by Mig-21 Capt Rudolph Zuberbuhler POW Capt Frederick ScMurray POW
Oct 5 1972
F-4D 66-8738 335 TFS 4 TFW USAF shot down by Mig-21 Capt Keith Lewis POW Capt John Alpers POW
Oct 6 1972
F-4E 69-7573 307 TFS 31 TFW USAF shot down by Mig-21 Capt J White survived Capt A Egge survived
Oct 12 1972
F-4E 69-0276 469 TFS 388 TFW USAF shot down by Mig-21 Capt Myron Young POW 1Lt Cecil Brunson POW

That is all I have 25 aircrafts, include 1 from USMC and another from US Navy

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

Thanks;

I got Michels' book in front of me: The June 24 losses were one close escort F4 & one Strike F4(post bomb drop) were lost to Mig 21s & on June 27 a MigCAP F4 & two F4s diverted for 'SAR' work were shot down by Migs.

I guess I better read closer...I think MAYBE Michel's math is a bit off---

Speaking of which, the May 18 F4 loss to the J-6/MiG19--do you know if it was it shot down by cannon fire or by Atoll missiles?

Thanks

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

As far as I know, only Mig-21s were armed with Atoll missiles. And Michael is correct of the F-4 losses on Jun 24 and June 27

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

For those two days yes they were...I'm trying to sift thru 'Clashes' slowly & methodically...the bit that has me curious is that he said of the 24 planes lost by the USAF 18 where F4s...so far I only see one F105 & the rest seem to be all F4s;

Anyhoo...it's interesting that The F4s downed by the J-6/Mig19s had no survivors except for Robert Lodge; Must be those huge 30mm cannons they carried.

NM

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

The single F-105G was downed on 11 May 72 (62-4224, 17 WWS, 388 TFW), crew Maj William Talley and Maj James Padgett, both POW.
Distracted by SAMs and shot down by Mig-21.

The two F-4s that were lost in the strike elements were 66-7636 on 24 Jun72 and 66-8738 on 5 Oct 72.

The "indirect" F-105G (own Sidewinder exploded a bit too soon..) was on 29 Jul 72 (62-4443, 17 WWS, 388 TFW). Both crew survived (Maj Coady and Maj Murphy).

Regards,

Leendert

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

Leendert: Was this a privately published book? Amazon lists an exactly titled "article" in Air and Space Power magazine by a different author.

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

Hmmmm...the October 5 striker loss was not in Michel's book; but the entries before & after this date are replete with Migs being able to get thru to the strikers & harass them into dropping their payloads;

NM

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

John it's a REAL book; I saw it once at my local Barnes & Noble...I even thumbed through it for a bit.

NM

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

You are right, I missed that one, that is a thick book

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

John,
Go to addall.com, and put in Chris Hobson, and Vietnam, and you will find a number of copies. One of the bookstores is actually in North Carolina!

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: USAF air to air losses during 'Linebacker I'
 

Thanks Frank