Very intereseting Bf109G-10 at e-bay
 

This interesting Bf109G-10 was by Peter Evans and posted over at the LEMB. It haven't sparked much interest for some reason although it is one very curious aircraft.

Notice that it has the panel below the windscreen pointing towards an Erla-built G-10 yet there's bumps on the lower enginecowling. The undercowling seems to stand out colorwise so it could be a replacementpart from a WNF or Mtt.Regensburg G-10. The topcowling seems to be mismatched as well though.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-Flugzeug-Mes...#ht_500wt_1154

Cheers! / Anders

Re: Very intereseting Bf109G-10 at e-bay
 

Anders,

Agreed, this machine is highly interesting. Before reading Ferdinando d'Amico's thread on the peculiarities of Erla's Bf 109 G-14/AS production over at LEMB, I would have concurred with you for an Erla G-10. The mix between the big 56 liters oil tank (higher filling cap), chin bulges on the lower engine cowling, flat canted panel below the windscreen and tall tailwheel strut are all consistent with the points presented by Ferdinando for recognizing Erla produced Bf 109 G-14/AS.

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...=1&#entry54606

According to the subsequent reply by Jean-Claude Mermet in the same thread, only 135 Bf 109 G-14/AS were produced by Erla in the following WNr batches:
WNr 460322-460371
WNr 460645-461378

As for its camouflage, I think it is much more straightforward then it seems; the lighting conditions make the left underwing very dark, though the edge of the radiator stands out in almost the same hue as the lower cowling RLM 76. As for the fuselage, please look at the dark RLM 81 zone on the top of the fuselage around the cockpit. The fuselage skin underneath seems to be heavily stained by the exhausts, but there is no indication for having been a different colour then RLM 76, also obviously used for the right underwing.

You will finally notice the shining paint zone at the front of the upper engine cowling (where the oil tank filling point is). Could this be consistent with the 1945 style yellow nose band seen on the JG 52 machines operating on the Eastern front?

Cheers
Marc

Re: Very intereseting Bf109G-10 at e-bay
 

The machine wasn't an Erla produced G-14/AS ... the tall tailwheel strut speaks against it.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Very intereseting Bf109G-10 at e-bay
 

Ah, Rasmussen

Thanks for the pointer. Where do we have a security excluding Erla G-14/AS's with tall tailwheel strut? Any published source for that?

Thanks in advance
Marc

Re: Very intereseting Bf109G-10 at e-bay
 

Not sure about the tailwheel but I was under the impression that Erla built G-14/AS's didn't have lower cowlingbumps? Eberhard Gzik's Red 2 "Rita" Didn't have it neither does Black 2 "Peterle" of JG4.

Cheers! / Anders

Re: Very intereseting Bf109G-10 at e-bay
 

Sorry to intervene, but I was somehow already put in this thread...:)

AFAIK, I agree with Andres, as one of the identifying peculiarities of the Erla-built G-14/ASs was the lower nose cowl devoid of chin bulges, so the first two "foreign" elements toward the ID of the plane in the photo as an "Erla G-14/AS" are the lower cowl and the tall tailwheel... but there is a third element, namely the higher oil filler cap which was typical of an enlarged annular nose oil tank.

Now, it is true that many "normal" G-14s produced by Erla showed such an oil tank, but this would be a "first" for their G-14/AS, in addition to the fact that the rectangular plate would be another "first" for the G-14/AS, which lead us to square one...

Maybe a possible (and maybe simpler) explaination for this aircraft could be a typical Erla G-10 which had received a replacement lower cowl adapted from an MTT G-14/AS probably due to some accident. After all in units the two types lived together and, although the Erla G-10 had an enlarged lower nose section that part could probably be adapted to fit.

Obviously, we have to rely on theories, because certainty on such versions is still hard to achieve...

Hope this helps

Re: Very intereseting Bf109G-10 at e-bay
 

Anders,

Thanks for correcting me regarding the lower cowlong chin bulges, I misread Ferdinando's very precise description.

Ferdinando,

I always appreciate your analysises, the more do because you bring with them this do necessary relativity between theory and unit-level practice

Cheers
Marc

Re: Very intereseting Bf109G-10 at e-bay
 

Thanks for your opinion there Ferdinando, seems as if we agree on the replaced undercowling. (I wasn't sure it would fit, but again, why not?)

As for the Erla-built G-14/AS. I thought that they did have the higher fillercap for the oiltank? The pictures of Eberhard Gzik's "Red 2" doesn't show the cap itself but the placement of the stencil seem to indicate the higher placement. EDIT - The picture I have at hand doesn't show the cap in enough detail, I know there's a better pic showing the nose in more detail so maybe someone else can tell?

Also, how many photos of Erlabuilt G-14/AS are there? Apart from Gzik's "Red 2" there's Black 13 flown by Oblt Scheufele of JG4.

Then there's a picture in Priens book on the Bf109 on page 159 that is said to show "White-21" Wrk.Nr 130282. Looking at the camoflage though, I'm quite convinced that it's wrong. The aircraft in that picture is almost certainly built by Erla judging from the paintscheme. As the enginecowling isn't seen it's not possible to say wether it even is a G-14/AS or a regular G-14.

Re: Very intereseting Bf109G-10 at e-bay
 

I hope you can forgive me, but you are right and I was wrong speaking of the oil filler cap (maybe holidays relaxes too much...:o). As a matter of fact, the higher oil filler cap was almost a trademark of the Erla production since the G-14 (I once posted about the lack of info on the Erla G-14 production and the peculiar choice of the bigger 60l annular oil tank mated with the DB 605A, but nothing emerged...) and it was there also on the G-14/AS built at Leipzig.

A proof of that is the nose of "Rita", which is documented with three photographs in the fantastic double volume of J-Y Lorant and Richard Goyat on JG 300. Here is Gzik under the nose of his aircraft which clearly shows the high oil filler cap...

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/Gzik_G14AS.jpg

Hope this helps

Re: Very intereseting Bf109G-10 at e-bay
 

My old friend Ferdinando is correct about the Erla G-14/AS. Its lower cowl was modified in a similar manner as its G-10 to accomodate the oil recovery lines and larger heads of the 605/AS. Since the heads were not as deep as the 605D the change may not have been as severe. As to why Mtt chose to use the cowling "bumps" on its 14/AS, it was probably, as mentioned, simple commonality with the soon to come 605D installation in the G-10. After all, the "normal" lower cowl from the G-1 on was basically the same so it was easier for Mtt to add those bumps instead of a whole new lower cowl, ala Erla. After all, Mtt built a lot more 14/AS machines than did Erla.

Re: Very interesting Bf109G-10 at e-bay
 

John, may I disagree for the first time with you? the DB605 AS engine didn't need any modification of the lower cowl. As a matter of fact, the "chin-bulged" cowl applied by MTT to its G-14/AS was simply a choice caused by the large availability of such lower cowls dictated by the contemporary production of K-4s on the same production lines.

There are a lot of photographs available showing that those "bulges" were of no use on the MTT aircraft... here are a couple:

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/G14ASdetail1a.jpg

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/G14ASdetail2a.jpg

The difference from a plane (G-10 from WNF or K-4 from MTT) who needed such bulges - caused by the tubings of the DB605D - is shown below, by the presence of the "slit" cut into the nose lower panel to give space to a tube which - in turn - needed to be covered by the bulge... (Erla designers decided instead to redesign the nose of their G-10s and K-4s, widening the section of the lower nose and thus incorporating the tubings with no bulges needed)

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/K4slit1a.jpg

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/K4slit2a.jpg

Thus, that is why both the "chin-bulges" on the MTT G-14/AS were useless, and the lower cowls of the Erla-buit G-14/AS were just normal ones, at least IMHO...

That is also why I do not believe to the presence on Erla G-14/AS of the enlarged lower cowl and of the "rectangular" panel on port side and, as proven by "Rita", such peculiarity was applied IMHO only since the innovative G-10 redesigned by Leipzig engineers onwards.

Summing up, the G-14/AS of Erla production were quite "normal" (if this word has a meaning speaking of the Bf 109 - as you know all too well, my friend...;)) apart from the higher oil nose filler hatch, whereas the anomaly on the MTT ones was the lower "chin-bulged" cowl applied only due to its availability and not by its need.

Sorry for being long in my post, but such things need clear explainations and examples, IMHO, which I hope to have supplied.

Re: Very intereseting Bf109G-10 at e-bay
 

Ferdinando, there's no need to be regretful or sorry, your posts are most interesting.

The pics in the JG300 book was exactly what I had in mind but as I was at the summer house I didn't have it available.

As you say, it's hard to talk about normal when it comes to late 109's but with all the knowledge that is beeing collected and improved, it would seem that we're getting more and more understanding of the abnormalities of different factories and versions. :)

Cheers! / Anders