Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Surprised this has not yet been discussed here:

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/n...oodwin%20Sands

Or did I miss it?

A stunning sidescan image of the bomber, too.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Hi Andy,

Thanks for posting that, I assume that its 5K+AR of 7/KG3, with three POWs and one crewman killed. It would be a great recovery 70 years on, wonder if its a possibility,

Regards

Brian Bines

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Yes it is said to be 5K+AR and if it is, two crew were POW, 2 killed, buried in Holland and Cannock Chase. I have been involved in this since Nov last year so expect an article in 'Flypast' shortly, including photos of a 5K+AR and 5K+GR, both of which were lost this day

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Hi Chris, fantastic news that at last we may get the chance to see some substantial remains of the only Dornier 17Z in existence.
The fact its been submerged in sea water for 70 years will know doubt add to the problems in recovering this rare bird!

Please keep us posted on your forthcoming article!

Rgs,
Steve.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

It will certainly be a fantastic coup if it can be pulled off. However, the difficulties of such recoveries are enormous as evidenced (for example) by the salvage of the Loch Ness Wellington and the Me 109 off Dymchurch recovered by Brenzett Museum in the 1970s. In the case of an aircraft partially submerged in silt or sand, that is a huge factor. Removal of such material is essential, obviously, otherwise the weight simply tears the airframe apart as in the case of the Spitfire recovered from the beach at Calais some years ago. However, I have no doubt that a proper plan and a professional recovery team will be in place to carry out what will be an enormously challenging and exciting project. Sadly, the site has already been dived on regularly (whether "legally" or not I don't know) and numerous treasures recovered including all five MG15s and an MP40 amongst other 'trophies'.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

We are most amused to see that, once again, Mr Saunders has been indulging in one of his well known flights of fancy, both on this and other forums, implying in his fairly unsubtle way that this museum, custodians of the country’s largest collection of Battle of Britain artefacts and memorabilia, is already holding parts of this Dornier. Any Do17Z parts in our collection have been in our possession for many years and were not “recently recovered” as Mr Saunders states. We are sure that Mr Saunders, who has widely proclaimed his knowledge of the Battle , is well aware that there are at least five wrecks of Do17s in the vicinity of the Goodwin Sands alone, and guns (and other items) from these wrecks are in the possession of several other museums and private collections. It is also worth adding that we have never recovered an MP40 from an undersea crash as Mr Saunders states, and, indeed, the three examples of this weapon that we do hold have all been obtained from private sources and none have been recovered from a crash site, as their condition testifies.

We must reluctantly assume that it is his well known animosity to this museum that has prompted this correspondence and we now consider this matter closed. For those of you who are interested in facts about the Kent Battle of Britain Museum, there is a book covering the early days of our research and recovery, whose author has been involved since its inception, and who has not had to rely upon rumour and hearsay, which is due to be published in the early part of 2011.

Trustees - Kent Battle of Britain Museum

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

You mean by not mentioning your organisation once in his post? If you have a private quarrel, it would be better kept private.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

To be fair Nick, I'm glad that we are able to hear both sides of this discussion, especially since locations and collections have been mentioned in the public domain, albeit in a round and about way. Mind you, not that I have any preference for who it right or wrong, but hearing both sides surely benefits everybody?

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

I'm not sure that I've heard any side of anything, Peter. Perhaps because it was done, as you say, "in a roundabout way" What's been posted here looks like a private dispute being played out in public, but in terms that only mean something to the participants. Certainly I could draw my own inferences, accurate or otherwise — no substitute for a clear, open statement of the perceived problem.

Perhaps Dave is saying: "Yes, we have MG 17s in our collection which were acquired legitimately. We are delighted that a Do 17 is to be recovered and wish the RAF Museum every success. We will naturally contribute whatever we can towards a faithful restoration of this machine, which is in the interests of all who care for aviation history."

Or he might be saying: "What we have we keep."

Or … any number of other possibilities.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

I couldn't agree more Nick, the whole affair with regards the items removed is as clear as mud! To be fair, Dave's post #6 has been replicated on the FlyPast forum where the issue of plundered weapons has been discussed in detail. I have also been in PM with contact with members here and elsewhere who were able to confirm more to me in private. There certainly appears to be more to some of the discussion than meets the the eye of the casual enthusiast and I detect a very strong undercurrent of distrust and questioning of my motives. My personal interest all along when learning of this exciting project has been to see all the illegally plundered materials reunited with the airframe. No other motives or hidden agenda other than that and to hear both sides of the argument help me understand the bigger picture... :)

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Might I simply draw attention to the initial report in The Times which stated, inter-alia, that items including the weaponry had been removed by unauthorised divers. That statement, presumably originating with the RAF Museum, was evidently a statement of fact. It also pre-dated any discussion here or anywhere else about these items or where they went to.

I have no animosity (although Mr Brocklehurst seems to think it is "well known") towards the Kent Battle of Britain Museum and aside from wishing to make that point clear I have no interest or intentions of being "baited" or drawn into discussion on the question of the items reported as "plundered" by The Times either here or by PM.


Peter Evans - I would suggest, with respect, that your desire to "hear both sides of the argument" are unlikely to materialise!

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

That is an incredible find!

If so many are known to be in area, why not collect more to gather enough good pieces?

Looks like you need to write a new book! ;)

I am ready to help you and Mark Postlethwaite again. :D

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Good point, Flying Pencil! However, I suppose the question is; does anybody know where all the others are?

From what we are being told, however, then somebody knows where at least another one is, evidently quite intact and somewhere pretty close. Allegedly.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Thank you Andy for keeping the discussion civil, as always I might add.

Dave there was little or nothing to start an argument, so please keep this feud limited to where it is actually fought out.

TOCH! is not a place to settle personal arguments.

If you can't surpress the urge there is PM, and even that is not a blanc cheque.

The detail on that scan is amazing.

Do 17 on its back, wheel wells and bomb by visible etc

Thanks for sharing.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Hi

The Goodwin sands are off Deal in Kent and are always shifting, the Do 17 rose to the top 2 years ago. Early this year a submarine appeared after a storm but after a few day it had sunk out of sight again. Back in the 1930's a DLH a/c out of Croydon forced landed on the sands but this has never reappeared. It appears that over 1,000 ships floundered on the sands and several are visible for a time now and then. With the Do 17 they would be well advised to act very quickly otherwise it will sink out of sight again. Any other WWII a/c in the sands could appear at any time.

When I was a young lad we used to have holidays at Deal and there were boat trips to look at wrecks. Although wrecks appear quite often there are sadly no longer any boat trips

Tony

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Tony

I am interested to know from where you discovered that this aircraft "rose to the top of the sands" two years ago? Is it in the RAFM news release, or is it from the Wessex Archaeology site?

Andy

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Andy

Do a Google for Goodwin Sands, then click on "News for Goodwin Sands" It then appears as Kent News Online, it then states that the wreck appeared 2 years ago

Regards

Tony

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Thank you Tony!

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

I did a search, everything is now the recent find.


BTW, is the Pilot Feldwebel Willi Effmert still alive?

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Some brief detail here on what might be the Dornier, although the link to any detail seems disabled. Here:

http://www.seadive.co.uk/projects/projects_index.htm

I should add, perhaps, that my rationale for believing that this is the Dornier in question is that the diver Bob Peacock (to whom this link relates) was interviewed on last night's BBC regional news discussing the Dornier that the RAFM plan to raise.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Not wanting to hijack the thread but intersting video on Ju 88 A-1 down there. To me this appeared having VDM props and short wings. As you notice it has broken in two on impact, forward portion is inverted but tail section upright. Description of it having had wheels down seems wrong, at least one seems retracted behind wheel doors. To me this might be salvageable for some parts only. I think airframe in general is a goner due shallow waters.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Ed

I am not aware that this Ju 88 airframe/crew have been identified, although someone may know if it has been? Ross McNeill may know.

I seem to recall that the dive site says "August 1940", but I am not sure on what that is based. In the dark recesses of my mind I seem to recall someone who had dived it (or presumably this one?) being identified as a 18 September KG77 loss....although I have no idea what led to any such conclusion.

Unless some conclusive evidence has been found, either documentary or physical, then I suspect identification of date or details might be rather speculative. It would certainly be good to know, however!

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Thanks Andy. We just see if indentification will come out. Doing quick search that date I found at least seven Ju 88´s of III/KG 77 lost that day.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

I have it on good authority that this Ju88 was not lost on the in September, but I have been asked to keep the exact date secret until further investigation of the wreck in undertaken and the results made available elsewhere... so more news soon then hopefully :)

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Link to video: http://www.seadive.co.uk/projects/ju88.htm

It is not an A-1.
Either A-5 (most likly) or A-4

The aileron on A-1 goes to tip, but in this video the aileron ends before the tip.

.....
I need to back up a bit. The video does not focus enough on the key parts, such as wing tips, to be conclusive, however there is one item that is certain:

The liferaft bay shown at 2:40 is without a doubt the larger one incorporated in later 88's. This very strongly indicated it is a not an A-1.
In the A-1 image below the square between wing and tail is square. Those build later are clearly rectangular.

Ju 88A-1
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/images/ju88_3vw.gif


Ju 88A-4 and later
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...d_JPEG_116.jpg

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Back to the Do-17 Z original subject,

Here an interesting RAFM diving video on the wreck; thanks to Peter over on LEMB for posting it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlBKYXHSuhc

Cheers
Marc

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Hello all, I have just joined 12 O'Clock High and would like to dive straight in with a bit of Dornier 17 info...

There is a Do17 lying submerged offshore at Pegwell Bay, just South of Ramsgate, Kent. It made an emergency landing at low tide on the beach after attacking Manston in late August 1940 (The Battle of Britain - Then and Now has a photo)

The crew were captured, with the a/c carried seaward over the years by the action of the waves. I used to work with a chap who holidayed at the Sandwich campsite and remembers standing on the wing at low tide and how the bent propellor blades used to be visible. Whether it is still there who knows but I'm sure there must be many Dorniers which were making for France but had to ditch in the Channel.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

...p.s For a Ju88 restoration visit www.Ju88.net.
The only authentic A-1 I believe which was raised from a lake in Norway after it was abandoned when the Luftwaffe used the frozen surface as an airstrip in April 1940.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Welcome to 12 o'clock Phil!

I am sure there are many scattered around that area, not just Do17, and not just Luftwaffe!

It would be wonderful if you can more accurate location, as it may be source of parts for the one they intend to recover. Or be in better shape.
The sands could entomb the aircraft, preserving it.

Cheers!

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Thanks for the welcome FP.

The wreck would be opposite what is now the Sandwich Bay Golf Course. I'll dig out the photos and try and upload them.

Back in 2003 I had the good fortune to work on a 60th Anniversary Dambusters DVD for the RAFM and worked with Ian Thirsk who is leading the recovery. A great chap, and if anyone can get it raised, he will...:-)

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

That's good to know about Ian.
I have been in direct contact with him last few weeks about the 17.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

An excellent article a couple of months ago in FlyPast by our own Chris Goss about this Dornier, for anyone who didn't see it.

As Spring is just around the corner, one wonders what plans might be moving forward to raise this wreck? The last I heard was that RAFM were seemingly casting around for the funding of £5K to carry out a survey dive last November, but I don't know if that went ahead or if finding funding for that operation was really an issue? It begs the question, though; if £5K was being sought for a survey then is the massive funding for an actual lift yet in place?

It could well be that security and keeping the story "tight" is an issue, in which case that is all understood of course. However, if one doesn't ask then one wont get the answers that may well be out there.

Whatever, the RAFM are to be wished good luck in tackling this project if, indeed, it is going to happen this year.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Reliably informed that a lift is planned for late July-early August.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Phil

Not sure how reliable your information was? Or whether late July/early August for the lift was deliberately non-specific in terms of the year it will be carried out.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1VJiganCE

We all wish the project well, I'm sure.

But....

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Working at the RAFML I know the tender has gone out for the 'lifting of" and that the men in grey suits were deciding which one to go with last week. Trips have been mad to Norway to see how they preserved a Ju88. But the main cost will be the vast 'tanks' to be built at Cosford to preserve the Do.

I believe the BBC have been commissioned to do a program of the lift etc.,

Lift end of August.

Kind Regards

Andy

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Andy

Thanks for that.

Presumably, therefore, funding is not an issue and the news media have gotten the wrong end of the stick?

If a lift is scheduled for the end of August, planning etc must presumably be at an advanced stage. On that basis, can we thus expect news in the next couple of weeks?

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

I assume you refer to the Ju-88A-5 that is now in Germany?
That was fished from salt water, not the A-1 they currently are working on.


And fingers crossed on recovery of Do17!

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

Hi

The lifting project is apparently in the news today:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22726671
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22728775

Mark

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

BBC news lunchtime informing that the Dornier is coming up at 9pm tonight.
All fingers crossed for a successful lift.

Re: Dornier 17-Z, Goodwin Sands, 26 August 1940
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22746342

For anyone interested!