Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Recently published FliegerRevue Extra #30 has a remarkable article on Brazilian P-47 pilots in combat with Groupo de Aviacao de Caca (1.GAVCA) in Italy. Page 112 shows a color photo of a Me 262 fuselage (narrow yellow Rumpfband (Kdo Nowotny-style); tactical number: White 26 on the front nose; probably EJG 1?) with 3 alliied (brazilian?) pilots next to it with (italien) airbase buildings behind them.

Although the place is not mentioned, the buildings (hangars) are obviously not German nor Austrian. So this might be an evidence that at least one Me 262 (fighter) must have landed in Italy probably after a combat or training flight. Probably the a/c was damaged, and due to lack of repair (no parts, nor Me 262 familiar staff) it could not start aigain and return to its units base and was therefore dismantled. According to the map on page 104, the final airbase of 1.GAVCA was near Pisa.

Are there any experts who know more about that?
Can someone identify the buildings?

Martin

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

I haven't seen the photo but I've looked at a lot of Mediterranean Air Force files and I certainly never found a single document mentioning the Allies finding an Me 262 in Italy, or one landing on an Allied airfield.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Martin and Nick,

I do have the same picture posted on a Brazilian Magazine, as well as other colour pictures taken by 1º Grupo de Aviação de Caça ( 1st GAvCa ), in Italy. However, this magazine is not at handle in the exact moment...it will take some weeks to get back home and take a look. Please, Martin, could you post it here ( I mean scan it )?

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Now here is the photo.

Nick, I reviewed postings on Luftwaffe in Italy here and on LEMB, as well as your (and your co-autors) excellent book Airwar Italy 1944-45 (published 1996). As there were (still) no traces of Me 262 found in Italy so far, this issus seems of interest.

Besides as I research Luftwaffe in Austria 1938-45, I assume this could be a Me 262 A of III./JG 7 the former JV 44 which did not make it to Salzburg or Innsbruck in the late days of April 1945.
Or it might be a fighter/trainer from southern Germany/Austria that beeing disoriented (emergency) landed in Italy and could not return to its units base due to lack of spares, J2 fuel, jet experienced staff, as there was only Erich Sommers Ar 234B recce Kdo (at Lonate) which operated German jets with BMW 004s in Italy.
So the plane could be disassembled and later "forgotten". Without (wings and) jet engines which could be returned to Germans (as they were considered secret and treated carefully, acc. to reports from Lonate) the remains (fuselage, wings) did not attract the attention of Italians or Alliied staff. But, this is speculative ...

So dear experts and enthusiasts, who knows more, has evidences, or parts of the real story?

Martin

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Recce units have similar style of the numbers shape, if this mean anything...

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Allied Technical Intelligence Reports include disassembled airframes, detached wings, engines and other components. I don't think they would have overlooked an Me 262 when they produced detailed reports on Gniesmer's Ar 234.

I also doubt that an aircraft unable to make it to Salzburg or Innsbruck could somehow cross the Alps to Italy, a longer and harder flight.

J2 was in good supply in Italy. To quote from our book:

[April] began with 226 cbm of B4, 125 of C3 and 341 of J2 on hand … At the prevailing consumption rate, J2 would have held out for about eight months.

Dan O'Connell's book mentions this aircraft. As he says, it is by a rail track but he gives no location. The one building you can see between the rail wagons doesn't look obviously dissimilar to others I've seen travelling with Deutsche Bahn.

I think we should consider the possibility that the Brazilian pilots went sightseeing in Germany, Austria or Western Czechoslovakia.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

After the war´s end a group of Brazilian Air Force personel did a tour in Germany. There was an idea to bring some captured German planes to Brazil. Unfortunately this idea was not shared by Nero Moura, their commander... He also did not allowed the Brazilian P-47 had nose art... There is a large group of color photos that shows this Me 262 ( a second shows the tail with the W.Nr.) , a Ju 52, German prisioners and destroyed German tanks. I sent copies from these photos that where published on Luftwaffe Verband and discussed for some issues.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Here are the photos from the Me 262 and Ju 52. They belonged to John Buyers collection. Major John Buyers was USAF´s liasion officer for the 1º Grupo de Aviação de Caça ( He´s posing with the Ju 52 tail ). My mistake, the Me 262 W.Nr. is impossible to see in the photo.

The only plane found by the 1ºGAvCa in Italy was a Me 109 G red 12 in Pisa. A photo from Museu Aeroespacial archive was published in the book FAB The Brazilian Air Force in World War II Mediterranean Theatre of Operations 1º GAvCa & 1ª ELO from Luciano Barbosa Monteiro by Adler Editora. ( The color photos bellow are also shown in the book in B&W ). Hope this helps!

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...ermany0001.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...ermany0002.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...ermany0003.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...ermany0004.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...ermany0005.jpg

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Most likely it was previously with III./EJG 2, a training unit, as evidenced by the yellow fuselage stripe and white forward number.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

The wings appear to be on the right side of the photo, forward of the fuselage.

Don

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Thanks to all, in particular to

- Nick, you are certainly right, the ATI and similar British airfield reports show particular in debth technical knowledge on German Luftruestung and were carfully compiled.

- Sergio Luis dos Santos for sharing the true story of the photo with us. It is indeed sad that no German aircraft were collected and shipped to Brazil as they might have survived or would have been preserved until today as in many other Allied nations.

Martin

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Thanks Sergio,

your post preceded mine which was intended to explain exactly what you said.

Back in 1995 I had the pleasure to watch a projection of such slides at the dinner organized in Pisa during the visit in Italy of the Veterans of the 350th FG and the 1ºGAvCa which I was honoured to host, and the projection was made by Col. Buyers himself who explained to us all that those particular images of German wrecks were taken in Germany and not in Italy...

Hope this helps to settle the discussion...

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

BACANA Sergio! Dà certo!
Can you share this Bf109G Red 12 with us, if it's possible? Thanks very much.
Franck.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Luciano Barbosa Monteiro, FAB na Segunda Guerra Mundial [The Brazilian Air Force in World War II; Mediterranean Theatre of Operations 1º GAvCa & 1º ELO] (Rio de Janeiro: Adler, n.d.), p. 31.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Muito obrigado caro amigo,

I like this place, you just have to ask for; sometimes. thanks again.
Regards,
Franck.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

If I may, the Bf 109 G-4 in question was a "prey" of the 347th FS, and it was "yellow 12", not red...

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/Bf109_yellow12.jpg

It was a recce G-4 of 1.(F)/122 found abandoned on Elmas airfield...

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/Bf109_yellow12a.jpg

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/Bf109_yellow12b.jpg

It was refurbished and repainted on OD/MG with USAAF markings (but keeping the Luftwaffe unit's badge) and test-flown a few times by Maj. Hugh D. Dow, CO of the 347th FS (shown in the photographs)...

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/Bf109_yellow12c.jpg

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/Bf109_yellow12d.jpg

Hope this helps.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Hello Ferdinando,

Waoh, we got Five for the price of one!

You may you may ... you must. To check this plane I was looking for a "Gelbe 12" in my data, since I wasn't convinced by a G-4 (Trop!) with a red 12 in either JG77 or JG53 in 1944(is it the good period?) And Cagliari (southern Sardigna) province is not exactly Pisa, of course.

And it helps too. Thanks a lot Ferdinando ( I wrote it well today without hesitation)
Regards,
Franck.

Do I see some writings under the canopy? anything else? As if the emblem was painted on cowling on starboard and under the canopy on leftboard....

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Here are the writings below the cockpit (last embellishment)...

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/Bf109_yellow12f.jpg

...and yes, the badge was on both sides of the cowling...

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/Bf109_yellow12e.jpg

Ok, Christmas is over... ;)

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Ah, no, I'm talking about the second picture you sent, still in german markings. For the following two... Huuum I still have eyes my friend :D.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

I mean here:
Cheers,

Franck.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

That white speck was only a chip off the negative. There are at least three more shots of the Bf 109 still in german markings clearly showing nothing below the cockpit (apart from a darker camouflage mottle).

You can also check the first photo of this plane posted by Ferreira...

Hope this helps.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Thanks Ferdinando for the correct color for Gelb 12 as well as his history. Grazie!

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

You are welcome, Franck.

Thanks a lot for the great photos and accurate information on "Yellow 12", Mr. D'Amico.

:)

Cheers,
Franklin

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

OK,

Thanks Ferdinando, Thanks Sergio for the Me262 picture and to have impulse that "Rote 12" exit, Thanks Franklin.

Regards, Franck.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Hello,

I'm back... Do we know her WNr. Fernandino?

Regards, Franck.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Hello there Franck,

On this picture of "Gelbe 12", one could think some kind of badge might have been overpainted judging by the dark blotch under the canopy...

http://homepage.mac.com/vizcarraguit...large-132.html

But who am I to be sure of?

Cheers
Marc

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Bonjour Marc,

Who are you? A "digger" as I am... And a friend, actually.

Cheers, Franck.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Hello,

circa ten years ago I had the opportunity to buy 3 photos of AR234 taken in Northern Italy... The seller pretended toooooo much money... so I didn't buy them...

I heard a legend about one photo showing a Me262 in ANR marking... I personally didn't get the chance to see it... it's part of a private collection... I heard it was a kind of propaganda photos and ANR never received Me262s...

Ciao...
Gianpiero

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Hi Marc,
A former 4./JG 27 aircraft? The shape of their emblem fits the paint spot. Scan from Ketley & Rolfe book. Br/Goran

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

I was cleaning and organizing my books today and found those same photos published in another title. Its a book written by Brazilian pilot Roberto Pessoa Ramos Neto : "Diário de um Herói de Guerra". In the book its said the planes were found in Landshut, near Munich.
Hugs,

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Hello Daniel, I have posted again the images. Hope they of some help to you.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

@Sergio, thank you for re-posting the photos, see also PM.


In my opinion the aircraft shown here is Me 262 "11053" of III./EJG 2 which made a belly landing because of engine fire near Grießenbach, NE of Landshut, on February 6, 1945 (another source indicates February 9). The pilot was uninjured, the aircraft suffered 40% damage. Several days later it was disassembled and taken to the airfield Ergolding near Landshut.

According to several eyewitnesses a Me 262 fuselage was lying at the exact spot as shown in the attached aerial image taken in early April 1945 (I copied in a He 111 from another part of the aerial photo as size comparison.). This area near the workshop was used as dump for damaged and crashed aircraft.
The Ju 52 in the color photos could be one of about 10-15 that landed at the airfield in May 1945 and were parked alongside the railroad.

Any other opinions?

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

[quote=Daniel;188271
... In my opinion the aircraft shown here is Me 262 "11053" of III./EJG 2 which made a belly landing because of engine fire near Grießenbach, NE of Landshut, on February 6, 1945 (another source indicates February 9). Any other opinions?.. [/QUOTE]

Yes, I have one Daniel and not the less: "11053" didn't exist! :)
...
But, I have one 111053 lost on 6th of February and it was a Me262B-1a! (No place given, at least in my data)
None on 9th.

Regards, Franck.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

I know, that's why I put it in quotation marks :)
The original GQM entry mentiones a Me 262 B1, S/N 11053, NE of Landshut on February 6, 1945. I suppose the GQM report is wrong this time regarding A or B, it wouldn't be the first time I think.
Anything else comes from other reports, eyewitness accounts and my own conclusions.

Kind regards,
Daniel

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

111053 and 110053 are not good WN's.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Hello Dan,

Ben voila!..

You mean you are the one who wrongly transposed the GQM "11053" into 111053 ?

I'm sure you know the following table, don't you?

Nah, I'm kidding. I know this is an old table (But didn't get the update, yet) Do you have a better suggestion for this loss? Thank you for your help.

Regards, Franck.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Hi Franck, I published ALL those WN's in my book, but they are listed as "unknown" because they are NOT official RLM allocation. I have no doubt as to where that information came from LOL 111053 would be my best guess also. Another of the many mysteries of WN allocations.

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Hi Franck,

I know I'm a little late putting my two cents in, but from Dan O'Connell, Me 262 Production Log, (2005), p. 85:


110530 Call sign NH+MF. Me 262 A-1a On 6 February 1945, an unknown pilot of III./EJG 2 was forced to make an emergency landing north-east of Landshut due to the engines catching fire while on a training flight. Damage to the aircraft was estimated at 70 per cent.

I think Dan had it right all along.
Best regards,

Jim Geens

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Reviving this thread due to an information conflict:

According to GQM (#12-26, 190/45, 8.3.45, 37); O'Connell, p.48; Horn, KG51, p.262 as reported in Michael Balss's loss list, the plane "forced to make an emergency landing north-east of Landshut due to the engines catching fire while on a training flight" you mention, Karoband, is given as Me 262 B-1a W.Nr. 170053 "Rote 1", piloted by Lt. Ernst Strate, III./EJG 2.

Any further clue as to W.Nr. 110530 ?

Cheers
Marc

Re: Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence
 

Hi Marc,

You are correct. GQM (#12-26, 190/45, 8.3.45, 37) does give "11053" as a B-1 with 40% damage. Indeed a mystery!

Jim