First Me 163 kill
 

Folks

In early August 1944 Lt. Ryll scored the first victory for the 163 over a B-17. Does anyone have the actual date?

TIA
Dave

Re: First Me 163 kill
 

August 16th, 1944.

:)

Re: First Me 163 kill
 

Thanks, but according to the Späte book, 16 August was a major combat with several aicraft shot down, however he mentions the first successful combat was during the first week of August with a single victory to Ryll.

regards
Dave

First Me 163 kill
 

Hi guys

I have read that the first claims made by the Me 163 occurred on 5 August 1944 when three P-51 fighters of the 352nd FG, USAAF were claimed by two fighters of I./JG 400. I have no idea if these claims can be verified through USAAF loss lists but it appears doubtful. The first known claims with the Me 163 were recorded on 16 August 1944 when Leutnant Hartmut Ryll, Feldwebel Herbert Straznicky and Feldwebel Siegfried Schübert each claimed a B-17 HSS although both Ryll and Straznicky were shot down, the former by 1/Lt Cyril Jones of the 359th FG, USAAF and the later by tail gunner Sgt H Kaysen of the 305th BG, USAAF. Although Straznicky was able to bale out Ryll was killed in Me 163 B-1 "White 11" (W.Nr. 163 100). It is my understanding that the first verified USAAF loss to the Me 163 occurred on 24 August 1944. I hope this helps.


Horrido!

Leo

Re: First Me 163 kill
 

Thanks Leo-no P-51s were mentioned in the Späte book, Rylls kill stated as being a B-17 in the first week of August.....

Dave

Re: First Me 163 kill
 

The account of the the three 352nd FG being downed came from "The Mighty Eight" by Freeman:
".The report of a B-17 radio operator...indicated 'Within two minutes after turning at the initial point I saw puffing vapor trails at about 35,000 ft about 9 o'clock to our course. They flew in direction of our formation, then turned to attack 3 P-51s which were flying approx 3,000 ft above and to the left of our formation.The jets dived onto the P-51s which were about 8 o'clock to our formation at the time. The 163s were in trail as they swooped down on the P-51s. The attacks were pressed almost to point blank range, then the enemy airplanes zoom climbed into the clear sky above. I saw each of the three P-51s catch fire and dive earthward.' Three 352nd Group P-51s were missing."

Only problem with this is that only two 352nd FG P-51s were lost on this date, both pilots being POWs in a fight with Bf-109s.

Jeff Ethell in his book on the Me-163 discounted the P-51 shoot down by the Me-163s. Its a mystery what the B-17 radio operator saw....?

Re: First Me 163 kill
 

If there is only one report, could the radio operator not have confused condensation trails left by Bf 109s for jet aircraft, that intelligence officers had probably talked about to be expected ?

A similar phenomenom as the numerous Fw 190 with "long-nose" claims made in summer 1944, because Allied pilots were told they will soon meet them. They did not meet before autumn, but tens were claimed in the summer.

Re: First Me 163 kill
 

Hi Dave,

Maybe this help: http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/me163/units.htm

5 August 1944 Several Komets reported by USAAF bombers and fighters, and one bomber crew reported three P-51's being shot down. Reports are inconsistent however.

16 August 1944 Five aircraft operational, launched against 1000+ US bomber formation. One Komet shot down near Böhlen by B-17 tail gunner ; Wnr unknown, pilot Feldwebel Straznicky used his parachute. Leutnant Hartmut Ryll attacks two B-17's (both return home), but is shot down by P-51's. The Komet explodes, Ryll is killed, wreck impacts near Bad Lausick (Wnr 3100..). Two more Komets attack bombers.

Cheers,
Franklin

First Me 163 kill
 

Hi guys

The information posted regarding the alleged action on 5 August 1944 is in agreement with what I have read previously in that it is based mainly on the testimony of a B-17 crewman but not much else. It should be noted that even before this date there were reports of encounters with the Me 163, including on 28 July 1944 when eight P-51 fighters of the 359th FG, USAAF had contact with five aircraft of 1./JG 400, 29 July 1944 when Capt Arthur Jeffery of the 479th FG, USAAF claimed to have shot down a Me 163 but apparently only damaged it and 2 August 1944 when a F-5 reconnaissance aircraft was attacked but no known claims were made by the pilots of the rocket fighters on any of these dates. I honestly wonder how accurate is the information by Späte that Ryll claimed a B-17 in the first week of August 1944. I have found only the following claims for this pilot in Wood which is in agreement with most lists which credit this pilot with eight victories:

14 January 1943: Unteroffizier Hartmut Ryll of 1./JG 77 claims a P-40E
24 March 1943: Unteroffizier Hartmut Ryll of 2./JG 77 claims a Hurricane II
7 April 1943: Feldwebel Hartmut Ryll of 2./JG 77 claims a Spitfire at 9:02
2 July 1943: Feldwebel Hartmut Ryll of 2./JG 77 claims a Spitfire at 12:50
5 July 1943: Feldwebel Hartmut Ryll of 2./JG 77 claims a B-17 at 11:45
3 August 1943: Feldwebel Hartmut Ryll of 2./JG 77 claims a Spitfire V at 17:05 over 48 293 at 3,500 meters
30 August 1943: Feldwebel Hartmut Ryll of 2./JG 77 claims a P-38 at 12:30 over the Ischia area at 10 meters
16 August 1944: Leutnant Hartmut Ryll of 1./JG 400 claims a B-17 HSS at 10:52 north of Brandis at 6,000-7,000 meters

Perhaps Späte simply got the date wrong?

Horrido!

Leo

Re: First Me 163 kill
 

Thanks guys, all a bit confusing-but not unusual for that period of the war I guess! Seems the 16th is the more accurate (or documented) date despite 'possibles' earlier in the month.......

regards
Dave

Re: First Me 163 kill
 

Hallo Dave,

Lt. Hans Bott was with JG 400, has one "Abschuß" of a B-17. He is very familiar with the stories about JG 400. He wrote, that there were not as many kill's by Me 163 as claimed or reported by bomber crews.
He is a friend of mine and now leaving in Argentina. He was like me with Schulungslehrgang "ELBE".
You can contact him: hansbott@gmail.com

I hope I cold help
Fritz M.

Re: First Me 163 kill
 

Hi Fritz M

Many thanks for your response, most appreciated. I will send Herr Bott a note.
I am sure that I am not alone in saying we would be intersted to hear of you experiences with Schulungslehrgang "ELBE".
If you are able to relate some of these please do so, maybe start a new thread....

regards
Dave

Re: First Me 163 kill
 

Dave, please let us know if you received a reply from Herr Bott.

First Me 163 kill
 

Hi guys

Here is a list of claims recorded by pilots while flying the Me 163. Note that there is quite a lot of conflicting information regarding victories claimed with this aircraft and any additions or correction would be most welcome.

16 August 1944: Leutnant Hartmut Ryll of 1./JG 400 10:52 B-17 HSS north of Brandis at 6,000-7,000 meters
16 August 1944: Feldwebel Herbert Straznicky of 1./JG 400 10:57 B-17 HSS south of Kölleda at 6,500 meters
16 August 1944: Feldwebel Siegfried Schübert of 1./JG 400 11:02 B-17 HSS south of Kölleda at 7,000 meters
24 August 1944: Feldwebel Siegfried Schübert of 1./JG 400 12:08 B-17 northwest Leipzig at 7,000 meters
24 August 1944: Feldwebel Siegfried Schübert of 1./JG 400 12:09 B-17 northwest Leipzig at 7,000 meters
24 August 1944: Leutnant Hans Bott of 1./JG 400 12:18 B-17 HSS Leipzig
11 September 1944: Feldwebel Siegfried Schübert of 1./JG 400 12:38 B-17 Brandis at 2,000 meters
7 October 1944: Unteroffizier Schielbeler of 1./JG 400 12:34 B-17 HSS Naunhof south of Brandis at 6,000 meters
2 November 1944: Feldwebel Wiedmann of 1./JG 400 12:17 B-17 15 Ost / LF-7/MF-1 at 7,000 meters
3 March 1945: Oberleutnant August Hachtel of 1./JG 400 B-17
3 March 1945: Oberleutnant August Hachtel of 1./JG 400 B-17
16 March 1945: Oberleutnant Rolf Glogner of 2./JG 400 Mosquito Leipzig area
10 April 1945: Oberleutnant Rolf Glogner of 2./JG 400 Mosquito
10 April 1945: Leutnant Fritz Kelb of I./JG 400 B-17 near Leipzig
22 April 1945: Oberleutnant Franz Woidich of 6./JG 400 E/a

I have read that an additional claim was made on 3 March 1945 but the pilot is unknown. Ota Jirovec has brought to my attention that Osprey Publishing will release a new book on JG 400 in November 2010 and hopefully it will answer many of the questions surrounding this unit and its operations.

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/stor..._9781846039751

Horrido!

Leo

Re: First Me 163 kill
 

Dénes , will do. Leo thanks for the list.

Dave

Re: First Me 163 kill
 

Hallo Frank,
I mailed your following report on 27. Sept. to Hans Bott:
"5 August 1944 Several Komets reported by USAAF bombers and fighters, and one bomber crew reported three P-51's being shot down. Reports are inconsistent however.
16 August 1944 Five aircraft operational, launched against 1000+ US bomber formation. One Komet shot down near Böhlen by B-17 tail gunner ; Wnr unknown, pilot Feldwebel Straznicky used his parachute. Leutnant Hartmut Ryll attacks two B-17's (both return home), but is shot down by P-51's. The Komet explodes, Ryll is killed, wreck impacts near Bad Lausick (Wnr 3100..). Two more Komets attack bombers."

Hans Bott was a member of JG 400. He downed one Me 163. He replied: This report is not correct.
Hans is living since years in Argentina. He asked me not to publisch his address.

Regards Fritz

Re: First Me 163 kill
 

There is an account of the loss of Ryll on 16th Aug 1944 in an old Air Classics magazine. It states 'Outhouse Mouse' of the 91st BG had been damaged in attacks by IV/JG3, and had left formation. Ryll in Me163 163100 of 1/JG 400 (white 11) dived at the bomber decelerated and formated on its right hand side for about 30secs. He was then attacked by Lt. Col John B. Murphy and his wingman 1st Lt Mullins in P-51Ds of the 359th FG. the Komet crashing at 1052 hrs killing its pilot.

Re: First Me 163 kill
 

Fritz

Herr Bott confirmed to me that the 16th was the first officially confirmed victory (Schubert), thanks.

Dave