'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Hello,

I have recently found pieces coming from a british bomber, lost +/- 5 miles South of Beauvechain (centre of Belgium).
Unfortunately, there are few info's about it : crashed during the night, in January '45, in allied territory, with no casualties (at the crashsite) as, at least, 5 men jumped. Allied service men went visiting the crater, circling it and left there a nearly complete bomber in the soil where it still remains up today. No dig attempt was made at that time.

I have found some items coming from the cockpit (beside numerous .303 cartridges dated '43-'44). Here is a pic. Some artefacts are standard and were mounted on Halifax, Lancaster dashboard, ... but I am wondering if someone can identify the type with one of those little bits. The cockpit frame and the 'Brake Free Ratchet' may be a clue... Any help is most welcome!

Here are also some markings which may solve this mystery:

On bakélite plates:
- 'Hunts - London' (reverse :'00005 British made')
- A*M Ref N° 5K/2263
- VGS 342 H

- 6D/603 MK IIIA (oxygen tubing?)

- A*M 10A/2570 (earphones)

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Hi
I think the metal piece with "Brake- Free- Ratchet" on it was part of the trailing aerial mechanism and would have been in the W/Op's position.Note the notches on the edge of the metal. The trailing aerial would have been wound onto a pulley probably about 8 ins across and would have been let out by the W/op after take off. He could let it out against a ratchet,or let it run free and use the brake to stop it when he had a long enough wire trailing behind the a/c.It was primarily used for the Medium Frequency band, the notches would have enabled the W/op to select the method of letting it out i.e hand winding against the ratchet, or running free and using the brake to stop it when enough was extended.He would probably use the free setting most, when winding the aerial back into the a/c prior to landing.My experience of it was post war as an Air Signaller
I think that the aerial was fairly standard for several types.
Regards
Dick

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Hello Dick,

Thanks for this explanation. I suppose this standard device cannot be associated with a particular type of bomber?

Another pic with some new pieces.
Recognizeable are:
the brakes and supply pressure gauge ? (dial)
An engine starting button cover
the security cover for ignition switches (on this picture)
etc.

Any bet?


Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Hi
I doubt if it could be tied down to any one type of a/c, but they were not identical and the various stations for the W/op may have required some variation around a "standard" format.
If you have Cockpit parts found close by the part we are discussing it might give a clue. My use of the trailing aerial was on the later Shackleton and the W/op was immediately behind the pilots. I think that in the Lancaster he was further back in the a/c but I don't know for certain and I don't know the Halifax , Stirling or Wellington at all
Regards
Dick

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Hello,

I have focus on some pieces which may be no so standard such as : cockpit frame and this strange inox bolt?
Need to go back to the site.

Thank you beforehand of your attention.

ClinA-78

PS : sorry no penny ! :D

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

ClinA, hi there. I hope you don't take offense, but I believe that the plane impacted shallow, in order for you to have found all the instruments. Most bombers did not come down in a steep angle and tended to splatter like an egg. Most times I excavated planes that went in in a steep angel, the instruments were meters down. Danny

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Hello Danny,

In fact, I had never seen a crashsite like that before (I use to recover some wreckage for ten years)!
The bomber made a slight depression like a trench in the field (still visible). It crashed vertically. And, as the main witness told me (he is the land owner), engines and big structure parts are still in the ground for sure. The magnetometer indicates a huge signal on nearly 20 m of width.
Sure, it is a strange kinetic paradox as the cockpit pieces thought about a 'bad' crashlanding. Non-ferrous materials (bakélite, brass, copper, etc.) were found at +/- 30 cm deep, in a layer of burned ash (few - much corroded - aluminum parts were found). I think that the front fuselage was simply torn off. The dig would learn more...

Any bet on the type?

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Hi ClinA-78,

based upon the information inyour original post, one possibility is 218 Squadron Lancaster LM187, which crashed at 1936 hrs on the night of 6-7 January 1945, close to Beauvechain, while returning from a raid on Neuss. The cause of loss was reputedly due to an engine failure and subsequent loss of control.

No crew members were killed in the aircraft, but one died when he fell to his death after he attempted to hold onto another crew member when baling out (he'd deployed his own parachute within the aircraft) - the two of them hoping to successfully utilise one parachute.

Cheers

Rod

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Hi,

in th first photo, lower left hand corner is a Type 48 microphone assembly, as probably originally fitted to a Type G Oxygen Mask. The short lead stemming from the bottom of the microphone would originally have had a bakelite connector fitted to it.

The graduated perspex immediately above the microphone may be from a navigator's ruler or plotting board (hard to say).

Cheers

Rod

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Hello Rod,

Thank you for your attention. I have ruled out Lanc LM187 as it crashed 1 km south of Nethen; her crashsite is thus known even if she crashed in the roughly same area.
Your hypothesis about the perspex rule is truly valid.

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

ClinA, sorry I am not an expert on RAF as much as I am on US planes. Not by choice, I just excavated more of them over the last 30 years :)
Matter of fact I am about to recover a Bf109E in Belgium, near Brugge.
I do thoug have a friend, who is a true expert on RAF and US planes, he astounds me frequently. Danny

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Hi ,

Could this be the one you are looking for ?
16/01/1945
Belgium
Lancaster I
Me-262
Crew safe bailed out at 0120 uur
Zeitz Braunkohle Benzin Werke
PD-309
576Sqn
UL-W2
Fiskerton
F/O Pegg Clarence Roy ( SAFE ) RAAF 405811 - Sgt Pearson R ( SAFE )
F/O Fitzpatrick Bernhard ( SAFE ) RAAF 432144 – F/O Crameri Alfred Roy ( SAFE ) RAAF 422436 – F/S Taylor Donald ( SAFE ) RAAF 437234-
Sgt Ainzstein R. (WND) - F/S Shearer Arthur Alfred ( SAFE ) RAAF 437234

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Hallo Alain

This Lanc crashed at Hahn SSE of Aachen VK917362

Best regards
Phil

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

I wonder Phil were you got this information from ? as I think that Alain has a point there. According to the interrogation report the crew of PD309 bailed out in the vicinity of Jodoigne while they were coming from the direction of Brussels flying towards Jodoigne. In a somewhat straight line you then cross Beauvechain or its vicinity. A long way however from Hahn, don't you think.

While just leaving Brussels on a course towards Jodoigne the pilot gave the order to abandon, which they did. One engine was on fire.

My only concern is if the aircraft indeed got as far as Jodoigne or not, because the pilot left the a/c between 1500 to 1000 ft. which is not a very high altitude, but still a considerable distance from the place were Nicolas found those pieces. And then the crashsite should have been past Jodoigne. However, since Jodoigne was the last set course, it might well have been the case that they never reached this point as far while actually bailing out. In this line of thinking you might consider PD309 as a "serious candidate" for the crashlocation which Nicolas found.

Regards,

Wim

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Hello Wim
The information was into the RAAF archives , following the coordinated furnished on the following document.
Best regards
Phil

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

sorry , this is the documnet

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

The document is clear , but however they may have wrongly put a K in place of a J , and therefore that seems to be much more fit with the testimony .
Best regards
Phil

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

It's definitively the PD-309 !! Wrong coodinates in the RAAF document and telegram
Sorry to have put a doubt
Best regards
Phil

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

No worries Phil ;), I am only to pleased that you were able to clear this out.
Errors in old documents are frequently found, and our luxury today in this case is that we can depend on several documents to get to a clear vision.
All the best,

Wim

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Damn, I was getting ready to go to Hahn looking for the crash-site!!! Danny

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Hello to all!

I am just coming back from a CBRN training week at Florennes AB and I am so pleased you make it, moreover, very quickly!
Thank you very much to Alain, Wim and my close friend, Phil. By solving this mystery (of course, would be completely solved once dig out), You showed perfectly the way how the BELGIAN researchers can exchange info's and make things going further (f...cking the current political crisis)
Of course, you will be invited for the 'official' dig.

Sincerely

Nicolas Clinaz

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Good day Ladies and Gentlemen
my uncle Flt/Lt Leslie Brown who was a Flt/Sgt WOP with 576 Sqn at RAF Fiskerton flew his first operation with the Sqn on this lancaster
(GelsenKirchen 29 Dec 1944) and two more operations (Osterfeld 31 dec 1944) his third operation being Munich 7 jan 1945 (this was the lancasters 44 th op)
this lancaster PD309 W-2 as detailed was abandoned over belgium after recieving battle damage the crew were reported to have have had an air battle with an ME262 and may have downed one
this being its 47 operation
im fiskerton on this site
http://lancaster-archive.com/forum/
I also assist a Mr martin nicols to run the website
http://www.fiskertonairfield.org.uk/
im sure most of you will have been to both websites
i have mailed the gentleman from belgium over this lancaster
i have the aircrafts history and operations and the crews operations both before and after this incident
you have an interesting forum which i will contribute
regards
dave

Re: 'NEW' UK bomber lost in Belgium?
 

Hello Dave,

Back from Halloween party... I will contact you very soon.

Nicolas