Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Hello,

Won this Do17 wreckage photo on eBay a couple of days ago and am looking for info on ID, date, location, etc. It appears that the two men in the uniforms are not Germans, but are probably local police. I suspect that this is in 1940, but could also be The Blitz period of 1941. Could be French or Belgian, but probably not Dutch. Does anybody know about this crash, recognize the site, or can ID nationality of the policemen in the photo?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_948wt_1032

Thanx,

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Hello Larry,

For me it is NOT French policemen

Bertrand

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Hello Larry it seems to me there dutch police officers

best Regards

Peter van Gogh

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Hello,

Thanks for comments. Anyone know uniforms of Belgian police officers during this period care to comment? It has also been suggested to me that these men could be Norwegian police.

Regards,

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Dear Larry,
I will report this image on the Dutch aviation forum "nederlandseluchtvaart.nl" maybe someone can identify this location.
To me, the uniforms of the two men look like Dutch.

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

g-1reaper,

Thanks. Please keep me informed of the outcome. If this turns out to be in Holland, it could help fill in one of our missing a/c crashes there.

Thanx,

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Hello,

We may rule out Belgian 'gendarmes'

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Taking a second look at those uniforms, I actually think that the men are Dutch Marechaussee, or military police. The high boots are catching my eyes, as are the rank symbols at the end of the sleeves of the coats.

Regards,
Edwin

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Edwin,

Thanks. If this is in Holland does anyone have any idea of which incident, when and where?

Regards,

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Progress on the Dutch forum.
We are pretty much convinced this Dornier crashed on Dutch soil. A member suggested to take a look at the registry: ?K+EA or ?K+FA?

Now about the location, we have no clue. There are dams running from the border straight into the river, a socalled "strekdam" or in English "Groyne" (excusez le mot). Unfortunately not much af a hint, many channels and rivers had these.

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Spotted something. Not sure it is a useful lead: PK+EA was a Dornier Do-215 B3... Are we getting close to an identity?

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Hello,

Not yet. There were Do215 recon a/c flying over Holland during the Meidagen, and it could be a crash by one of those. Could also be later during night Blitz on England late,1940, through the spring of 1941, but not as many Dorniers in the combat units by then. Looks like this a/c exploded and fell to the ground. I don't yet have the original photo to work from, but will closely look at whatever codes are visible when it comes. In the meantime, I'm hoping that someone in the Netherlands recognizes this crash, and perhaps has other photographs of it.

Thanx for the continuing help,

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Larry, could it be an a/c of KG3 5K+ codes worn by this unit.

Possibly 5K+EA or 5K+KA ?

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Here is a list of Do-17 / Do-215 losses during the "meidagen" on Dutch soil:

Do-17Z2 W.kusta 26 North of Ameland, north sea, 31-03-1940
Do-17Z Aufkl.St./7 fl.div W.nr. 3474, Wilnis, 10-05-1940
Do-17Z Aufkl.St.(F)/II W.nr. 4521, Westmaas, 10-05-1940
Do-17 ?, ?, Druten, 10-05-1940
Do-215B-4 2 (F) Aufkl.Gr. O.d.L, Dordrecht, 10-05-1940
Do-215B-4 2 (F) Aufkl.Gr. O.d.L, Vlaardingen, 10-05-1940
Do-215B-4 Aufkl.Gr. O.d.L, Loosdrechtse Plassen, 10-05-1940
Do-17P 2(F)/123, Beek, 11-05-1940
Do-17P 2(F)/123, Schinnen, 11-05-1940
Do-17P-1 1(F)/121, Amsterdam, 12-05-1940
Do-17Z 8/KG 77, Gulpen, 12-05-1940
Do-17 ?, Gorinchem, 12-05-1940
Do-215, ?, North Sea, 13-05-1940
Do-17, KG-53, Zaamslag, 16-05-1940

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Hi,

Druten is very close to the river De Waal.
Gorichem is close to the river Boven Merwede.
Dordrecht could also be a possibility but is some distance from the Nieuwe Merwede.
Perhaps best changes are Druten or Gorichem.

Regards,

Mathieu.

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

The question about the uniforms is cleared. Indeed, the men are Dutch military police.

Landscape suggests that it may be in the Limburg province, the southern most part of Holland. That is what has come out of placing this riddle on a second Dutch forum.

It may well be the case that Dutch military police was not interned, and still active in police service after the meidagen... So that means the picture could be made after may 14. (BTW: Schinnen and Beek are in Limburg. Schinnen is ruled out, since that aircraft didn't break up after crashing.)

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

In all occupied countries Police/military police were active , no possibility to make different ..

Remi

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

We may rule out Do 17 Ps as they've got somewhat different rear fuselage.

p.

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Hello all,

I really appreciate all of the efforts to help solve this mystery. We now know that this is in Holland (the Netherlands to those who object to the use of that term in English), and is probably not one of the Do17Ps, as Pavel has stated. One of the things that we're trying to do in the EOE Project, which has several important Dutch researchers as Working Group members, and many others who provide support and info, is to match photos of crashes with existing reports of losses/damages in Luftwaffe and Dutch records. The Ju52s are a nightmare, but for the other types, we've been quite successful in this, correcting a number of erroneous records and previously published info. This Do17 may well have crashed after the Meidagen (the few days of the Dutch Campaign in mid-May before the Dutch surrender), and I hope that this will turn out to be one of the mysteries solved. Many, many Luftwaffe losses in Holland reported by post-war sources do not pan out when closely scrutinized, and eventually we hope to sort this all out, including (gulp) the Ju52 losses, matching as many of these to crash photos and mapped locations as possible.

Regards,

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

I am quite sure it is not Do 17 P, moreover white areas of the fuselage cross seem to be brushed with temporary black paint. The code indeed seems to be _K+EA or _K+FA.

p.

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Another hint about the uniforms. Specialists over here in the "Pays Bas", the marechaussee uniforms in this form were worn up to 1942. They still had some tasks to maintain order. One of their known stations was Gorinchem, which was mentioned here before.

@ Larry
Thank you for your interesting explanations concerning the EOE "Meidagen" project. I'm really thrilled and am curious about your results.
I myself am in the process of finishing a book about the use of the Fokker C.5, which was still widely active during the meidagen.

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Hi,

At another Dutch forum one came up with this suggestion:
2./Aufkl.Gr23 became part of 2.(F)./123 , is it possible that an aircraft from the old 2./Aufkl.Gr23 still was carrying its old registration starting with 6K? The 2.(F)./123 was flying from Mönchen-Gladbach close to the Dutch border.

Regards,

Mathieu.

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Hello all,

I think that one of our EOE members just nailed this. On Sept. 26, 1940: "Stabsstaffel KG3 Dornier Do17Z-3 (2591). Lost bearings on return from sortie and abandoned near Maastricht. BM Fw Walter Siegmund baled out and slightly injured left knee on landing - admitted to hospital in Antwerp, rest of crew all believed baled out unhurt. Aircraft 5K+FA 100% write-off."

We already have another excellent photo (well-known) of this a/c in flight (or at least an a/c with these same codes from the 1940 period). If the codes turn out to match when I get the eBay print, we've got it solved.

Does anyone else have photos of Luftwaffe any crashes in Holland during 1940 that they might like to help us with? We're still trying to locate as many photos of crashes in the Netherlands as possible, whether they are identified or not.

Regards,

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Hi Larry,

Well done! Perhaps you can make a posting about your EOE project at this forum: http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?p...discussiegroep
They have an English chapter, they are very good about the battle in the southern part of the Netherland. They pointed already to limburg!

Regards,

Mathieu.

Re: Seeking info on Do17 Crash 1940
 

Hello to our Netherlands readers,

Now that we know that this was along the bank of a large river near Maastricht, can anybody now pinpoint the actual location of this crash? I see that a major river runs right through the town (like they do in most Dutch cities). Perhaps the buildings on the opposite bank of the river will give us a clue, although this area has probably changed dramatically in the past 70 years. It's worth a shot.

Mathieu, would you consider taking the posting about the EOE Project from the first listing on this Luftwaffe Board, plus the recent update, and posting it on the Dutch discussion group board? Also, would you please post the results of this discussion thread so that board's readers know that we've resolve this one? Thanx.

Regards,