Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Probably a question that has been asked and answered many times (apologies if it has) but has it been conclusively established whether it was Graf or Steinhoff who was an attentee at the rebellious meeting with Goring in January '45? After reading both 'The Last Chance' and 'Graf And Grislawski', where in the first book, Steinhoff claims he was present and in the second, it only states that Graf in a newspaper article claimed years before that he attended the meeting and was afterwards despatched back to the Eastern Front with no mention of Steinhoff being represented. For such an important historical incident, I was wondering if the historians have a definitive answer to this?

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

I think I read that Johannes Steinhoff was part of the Fighter Pilots rebelion. Himself and his good friend Gunther Lutzow( the main speaker at the rebelion) feared for thier lives afterwards. It was only Hitler himself that stopped Goring from having them killed. I used to correspond with Mr. Steinhoff before he past away. But we never wrote about that part of the war. I would tend to believe Johannes Steinoff, he seamed to be a man of great credibility. Bob

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

It seems to be an either or situation with these two participants, as the other attendees at the meeting have never been in dispute as far as I know. The strange thing is both Graf and Steinhoff at different times went into print claiming to have been present and in reality one of them wasn't there. Christer Bergstrom in his book only records the two conflicting scenarios without proposing an opinion as to the truth of the matter. So my question remains as to whether history has answered this quandary with both claimants now deceased.

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

I was lucky to have dinner with Steinhoff and Galland on separate occasions.

Steinhoff mentioned after fighter pilots meeting ,that he and Lutzow were separated one to italy and other to Norway!. Also said when he tried to call Lutzow call was "politely" blocked. " Sorry Herr Oberst your not allowed personal calls to Italy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Galland said troublemakers Macky and Franzl were sent as far as they could be!!Also seem to remember him saying something like "I was so depressed about situation that he had nearly done same as Udet". However 2 SS officers had arrived and told him they were to make sure he didnt do anything stupid and he was taken to Reichchancellory next day and told to get out of Berlin (by Von Bellow?).

Steinhoff also mentioned Goering went "Purple" at Lutzow's statement.

robert

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

In David Baker's book on Galland there is no mention of Hermann Graf only Hajo Hermann who was told he was to replace Galland by Goring.

I thought is was interesting to read about a phone call placed to Speer who in turn called Hitler to inform him of this problem. Hitler then called Kaltenbrunner (SS) and Mueller (Gestapo) to drop all charges...

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Different meeting referred to here John. Galland had already been replaced at the time of the mutiny of the Geschwaderkommodoren, who were proposing to go to Hitler with their demands for Goering's dismissal towards the end of January 1945. The 'Fat One' got word of this before it could be enacted and agreed to meet them first. One of their ultimatums was that Galland should be reinstated immediately and all resources be redirected towards the fighter arm (Me 262 etc.) The controversy is whether Graf or Steinhoff were part of the delegation that was led by Lutzow who was the main protagonist in confronting Goering. Both claimed at different times to have participated and that the other was not present.

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Hello,

personally I think that Hermann Graf is one of the most interesting personalities of the German fighter aces, not least because there are so many controversies regaring him, pow-years etc.

Anyway, here is one view to the mutiny of the aces. This is a translation of pages 244-247 from a book in Finnish language by Karl Bartz: "Taivas on liekeissä". Kustannusosakeyhtiö Tammi, Helsinki. KK:n kirjapaino, 1956.

The original title in German language is "Als Der Himmel Brannte". This book is old but quite good and different than most WW II books. It has a nice "touch", it is well written and it covers many sides of the war, both personal experiences and strategy. It is not a Luftwaffe history in < scientific sense, but more like a collection of stories from interesting incidents.

I made this fast translation for my good friend Christer Bergström when he was writing his Graf-book. I´m not a translator by profession, but the basic idea of the text is surely correct.

********************************************

Pages 244-247: Aces in mutiny

The blame of Bodenplatte´s great and irreplaceable losses was put on bomber general Peltz and also general Schmidt. Why would one send so concentrated formation to fly low over the enemy territory, when they thus were easy targets for the most concentrated aaa-fire?
How was it possible that the formation leaders were told to fly the fixed routes and not let them freely choose the best way to target? Why weren´t the pilots informed of the V-weapon areas?

Among the front commanders Göring had long ago lost his authority. Everybody knew, that he could not support the Luftwaffe. When Göring demanded during one conference (when all high ranking officers were present) that everything must change and he told these men who had so many times risked their lives, that they should have fanatics of the Soviet army as an example, everything was at the end. Bitterly and scornfully the officers took this mocking. For them, Göring´s fairy tale was finished.

All this and bad leadership, the ignorance of the stab about the front situation and finally the wrong commands regarding the Bodenplatte had started the idea of demonstration against Göring. The last drop was the fact that Galland was sacked from the GdJ-post.

So several Luftwaffe obersts got together (Galland had made the iniative, but he stayed behind the scenes) in order to write a memo and to told Göring directly what are the problems, and to insist the problems to be fixed. These men had the highest medals and they all had faced death many times... They were obersts Graf, Lützow, Neumann, Rödel and Trautloft.

Trautloft and Lützow wrote the memo, which the other obersts supplemented.
Honest, honourable and slim oberst Lützow was chosen to present the memo.
It started with a fact that jagdwaffe was going thru a crisis because of the allready made and planned personnel changes. The following reasons had led to this crisis:
The units can´t understand the "leave" of general Galland, because he is the leading brain of the jagdwaffe, he is known as a good leader and despite his toughness, is popular among the fighter pilots. One reason for crisis was accusation "many times repeated by Göring that the fighter pilots are cowards, allthough jagdwaffe had perhaps greater proportional losses than any other part of the whole Wehrmacht".

Next came the demand that the bomber general who had led the jagdwaffe since the beginning of the western attack (17.12.1944) must be relieved from his duty. Since that day 2 kommodore, 14 kommandeur and 63 staffelkapitan had died.

According to opinion inside jagdwaffe, these losses are mainly due to leader´s mistakes. Never could the bomber general achieve the trust of the fighter pilots, (although he had great personal achievements) because he had kept the IX Fliegerkorps out of the battle during these difficult times. At the same time he had ruthlessly sent the badly trained day fighters to the battle. (IX Fliegerkorps had been trained to use Me 262 as a bomber, with no results). Also, bomber general is no fighter pilot. He had supported the idea that Me 262 should be used as a bomber. He had close co-operation with a person, who was known as an enemy of the fighter pilots and who called them pigs.

In the memo Gordon Gollob, Galland´s succesor was also mentioned.

Gollob has shot down many planes, but he never was a good superior. He considers personal matters more important than the main facts. The proof is that when he was not satisfied, he didn´t try to live with it, but instead he wanted to change to another arm (SS).

Oberst Herrmann would also never be popular among fighter pilots. As a commander of the dispanded 30. Jagddivision he had had great losses and minimum results, and he had not told his superiors the faults of the system, but instead had kept them secret for personal reasons.

The jagdwaffe is convinced that the "close ring" of Reichmarschall gives him wrong info. So jagdwaffe demands, that all officers must be changed, specially those without no combat experience. According to new situation, the new officers must be chosen among the experienced fighter pilots.


The meeting begins. Göring arrives with Koller and some other officers. Obersts salute. Göring doesn´t respond. He says only: Sit down. With red face he reads the memo.

So brave Lützow begins to speak with calm and friendly voice, without permission and against all military tradition.

Herr Reichmarschall: In the name of the soldiers at present, I must ask you to give me 50 minutes time to speak without interruptions. Otherwise our aim to give you information is useless.

Göring´s face gets even more red: This is outrageous, he shouts. Something like this has never happened. Are you going to say that I have not established a strong air force?

Lützow stands without a move and looks Göring straight in the eyes: Yes, Reichmarschall, he says, and stresses every word by knocking his finger on the board. You have started strong Luftwaffe and had success in Poland and in France. But since then you have been sleeping.

Göring´s eyes seem to blow. His face is blue-red and he hits his fist on the table. What do you say? he shouts. I´ve had it. This is mutiny. I´ll have you shot.
Then he leaves the room.
Lützow and Trautloft were sacked. Gollob was made the last GdJ.

Then Hitler interfered. Galland didn´t get his job back. But he got the opportunity to start a new Me 262-unit and prove his point about Me 262 being so good as a fighter plane. And Galland said yes. He could pick his pilots. He took the "Aces in mutiny" with him and started JV 44 at Branderburg-Briest in January 1945. There were many aces among the pilots, Steinhoff, Lützow, several majors, kapitans, leutnants, unteroffiziers. They wanted to fly as an ordinary pilots...
At the end of March the unit flew to München. During the last days of war Steinhoff got burned badly. Lützow died. At the beginning of May the unit flew to Salzburg.
When the americans got closer, the jets were burned.
**************************************************

Further evidence, or should I say counter-evidence, is presented by Alfred Price in his book "The Last Year of the Luftwaffe. May 1944 to May 1945."

Page 131: A few days later a deputation of senior leaders, led by oberst Lützow and including Oberst Graf (JG 52), Oberst Rödel (Commander of the 2nd Fighter Division), Oberst Steinhoff (JG 7) and Oberst Trautloft asked for and received an audience with Göring.

So, this question still waits the final answer. I wonder if we are ever going to get one.


Best regards from Helsinki,
Raimo Malkamäki

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

If Koller was present it shold be possible to find out who was there. Parts of his diary has survived the war! Does anyone know if the part from january to march 1945 still exists?

Junker

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Thanks Raimo, so now we have a possible third scenario in which, as proposed by Alfred Price, both Graf and Steinhoff together were present at the showdown with Goering. Very interesting but strange that with such deep research having been performed for so many years on important Luftwaffe history such as this, that no complete answer has been found to this question.

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Thank you (again) for your input, Raimo!

It is interesting to note that Karl Bartz mentions Graf but not Steinhoff. But I agree that we don't know exactly who was present and who was not. That is why I published both sources in my book "Graf & Grislawski".

The version that Steinhoff was removed from his command of JG 7 as a consequence of the "rebellion meeting" is a myth. Steinhoff was removed from his post as JG 7's commander in December 1944 due to Manfred Boehme on the grounds of accusations of failures in his duties as unit commander ("mangelnder Aktivität, (. . .) weil er versäumt hatte, in den rund sechs Wochen seiner Kommodoretätigkeit die Aufstellung des Geschwaders genügend voranzutreiben." Boehme, "JG 7", p. 102.)

The "rebellion meeting" took place in January 1945.

I agree with Raimo that Graf is one of the most interesting personalities of the German fighter aces. I also think that Steinhoff's qualities as a fighter pilot deserve to be better emphasised than in most books on the topic. While I was working on "Black Cross/Red Star", volumes 3 & 4, it struck me that Steinhoff really was one of the "giants" among the German fighter aces as far as fighter pilot qualities is concerned.

Funny that Gollob also was mentioned in this context. Apart from Graf, I can't think of any Luftwaffe fighter ace and unit commander who has been more unfairly treated by history writing than Gordon Gollob. I admit that I too fell into that trap until I some years ago had reason to study Gollob's career as a figyter pilot more closely. This will show in "Black Cross/Red Star", Volume 3.

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

According to diary from Koller under 17. january 1945:

After I came back from the advanced headquarter in the west i met with Oberst Lützow, Steinhoff and Rödel 17.30!

So I,m pretty sure that Steinhoff was present at the meeting on the 19. with Göring!

Junker

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Small correction here:

Als der Himmel brannte
Der Weg der deutschen Luftwaffe
Karl Batz
Adolf Sponholz Verlag Hannover, 1955

p.252

Meuternde "Asse"

So trafen sich - auf Veranlassung Gallands, der im Hintergrund blieb - mehrere Obersten der Jagdwaffe, um eine Denkschrift zu forumulieren und Göring ins Gesicht zu sagen, wo die Fehler lagen und Abhilfe zu verlangen. - Es trafen sich Männer mit den höchsten Auszeignungen, Männer, die oft genug das Totenhemd getragen hatten... Es waren die Obersten Graf, Lüztow, Neumann, Rödel, Steinhoff und Trautlof.

So the original German copy of Bartz does include Steinhoff!

Lets not forget that also Steinhoff quotes from Koller's diary, on p. 112 & 116 as one of the prime instigators running up to the confrontation with Göring.

The Final Hours
A German jet pilot plots against Goering
Johannes Steinhoff
Nautical & Aviation Publ., 1985

Another list can be found in

Fighter General
The Life of Adolf Galland
Raymond Toliver & Trevor Constable
Schiffer, 1999

p.167

Goering immediately saw Steinhoff and Neumann at Karinhall. Their visit and views convinced Goering that he had a major crisis on his hands. The Reich Marshal thereupon called a meeting of all available Kommodores at the House of Pilots (Haus der Flieger) in Berlin. Colonels Luetzow, Steinhoff, Roedel, Trautloft and Neumann; Lt. Colonels Graf, Bennemann and Priller; and Majors Michalski and Aufhammer were available to attend. Galland was not invited. Trautloft and Luetzow nevertheless kept him informed of events.

Now here is what I think might be closer to the thruth.

The Obersten Lutzow, Neumann, Rödel, Steinhoff and Trautloft were prime movers in the case against Goering. They had been part of the planning phase or had contact with either Köller or Von Greim in the days previous to the January meeting.

Steinhoff p. 118

We gathered outside the building. At our suggestion all the conspirators had been summoned to Berlin who a month before had decided to take action: Lützow, Trautloft, Neumann, Rödel and Steinhoff.

Now Graf was there judging by what apears to be a more thorough list in Toliver & Constable, but likely only as an attendee: a meeting of all the available Kommodores.

So Steinhoff was in his right in excluding him as part of the conspiracy, however Graf was also correct as a participant of the infamous meeting.

What remains is an error in a Finnish translation of Karl Bartz, or an error in its re-translation to English, thus there remains no doubt that Steinhoff was there, and little doubt that Graf was as well...

Of course this is part assumption on my part.

(there is also a good account of the January meeting in Six Months to Oblivion, by Girbig p. 182, which together with The Last year of the Luftwaffe, by Price p. 131, also includes Graf in the list).

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

If you read between the lines in my book "Graf & Grislawski", you will see that although I mention the two different versions, my own conclusion is that probably both Graf and Steinhoff took part in the confrontation with Göring in January 1945. At the end, I write: "Göring's most sinister threats never were realized. The most severe repercussions were brought down on Lützow, who was banned from German soil and sent to Italy to assume command of the German fighter units in the area. Oberst Rödel remained in command of 2. Jagddivision, and Oberst Steinhoff had been removed from his command of JG 7 previously in December 1944. The fact that Hermann Graf was allowed to return to JG 52. . ."

I don't see any objective circumstance which supports the conclusion that Graf was only a passive attendee. At least Graf himself describes the list of demands which was presented to Göring as "our proposals".

This is how Gollob commented on Steinhoff's description of the famous meeting with Göring:

"One finds that accurate statements are missing, detailed information is sometimes not correct. Anyone expecting objectivity/impartiality will be disappointed," Gollob writes on Steinhoff's description.

Continuing his review of Steinhoff's book ("Verschwörung der Jagdflieger"), Gollob wrote:

"One notices that many of the 'players' are referred to by their initials and not their full names. Why such secrecy? Often it is unclear who said what . . . We find for instance, Major Br. (page 82) and the Hptm. from the General der Jagdflieger's staff who 'arranged' Steinhoff's trip to northern Italy to see Lützow where he was held up by military police on orders of General Ritter von 'P'. Shall we insert the proper names? Brustellin, Kath and Ritter von Pohl. Or does Oblt 'B' (p. 52/54) and Obstlt B. have a similar personality to that of Bühlingen? Corrections would be welcome as much as any additions. The method of spreading allegations without providing any proof is inexcuseable."

Jochen Prien is another one who questions the accuracy of some statements in Steinhoff's book "Verschwörung der Jagdflieger". See p. 138 in Prien's et al excellent "Jagdfliegerverbände" 9/I. Although Prien touches another subject in the same book by Steinhoff, it forms a questioning of the reliability of Steinhoff's book as a source.

As for myself, I rest my case. I was in personal contact with Steinhoff for many years and received much valuable information from him - information which I later have been able to find confirmation for in original documents etc. However, Steinhoff diplomatically avoided to identify the people mentioned by single characters (letters) in "Verschwörung der Jagdflieger".

For different reasons, these three men - Graf, Steinhoff and Gollob - are quite controversial persons in the society of WW II Luftwaffe fighter pilots.

To SES:

The assertion that Steinhoff and Rödel were removed from their posts because of their participation in the so-called "mutiny" in January 1945 is wrong, as you can see above and in my previous post. Steinhoff was removed from his post as JG 7's commander in December 1944, and due to other reasons. Rödel remained in command of 2. Jagddivision, just as Graf remained in command of JG 52. The reason why precisely Graf remained in command of JG 52 is discussed in my book "Graf & Grislawski"; I find it quite understandable in view of circumstances. By the time the meeting with Göring was held, the Soviet winter offensive caused the German lines to collapse, and the Red Army was streaming into Germany. To remove such a popular commander and hero as Graf from his command of a key Eastern Front unit like JG 52 - and precisely in that moment - probably would have been psychologically unwise ( to say the least). You have to understand that by that time, Graf was a "super hero" to the German airmen and soldiers, way above Steinhoff, Neumann, Trautloft and Lützow. Such a cult figure can't just be dismissed - particularly not exactly in the very days when the Third Reich is flung into its deepest crisis ever.

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Hi Chris,

Thank you very much for this most thorough analysis. I was working off books only, and they are seldom the best sources. The present company excluded :) .

Bregds

SES

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Gustav Rödel was not in command of 2. Jagddivision at the time of this meeting. He served in the Stab of the Jagddiv. Rödel became commander on the 16. february 1945, taking over from GenMj. Ibel!

It would still be great to see Koller's notes in his diary about this meeting!

Junker

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Der Abgang General Galland wird von der Truppe nicht verstanden, da er in der Waffe als der übertragende Kopf und Führer anerkannt ist und - trotz seiner Härte nach unten - das Herz der Jagdflieger besitzt.

The dismissal of General Galland was incomprehensible to the men of the fighter units. He was recognized by the fighter arm as its outstanding personality and leader and - despite the demands he made on those under him - enjoyed its loyalty and love.

Original from facsimile copy of memorandum in Dahl's Rammjaeger, translation from Girbig's Six Months to Oblivion.

Would a system which took on Galland really have such second thoughts on Graf?

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle but I believe it is unwise to make such blanket statements on either side of the argument.

However personally I am tempted to believe that the role of conspirator (or Luftwaffe politics) is ill suited to the character we generally attribute to Graf.

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

IIRC, different sources differ on that issue - some stating that Rödel was in command of 2. JDiv already by the time the famous meeting with Göring was held. In any case, my point was that Göring's most sinister threats against the so-called "mutineers" never were realized. If it is true that Rödel after the confrontation with Göring was elevated from a staff position to command the 2. JDiv, he is the one who got the best treatment after the meeting with Göring; in that case, we have one man who was even elevated, in spite of his criticism.

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Thanks for the interesting contributions here which have presented concisely the different possibilities as to what may have actually occurred with regard to this matter. The conflicting information available no doubt precludes any definitive conclusions from being drawn in regards to whether Graf, Steinhoff or both of them were in the room that day. Thanks again for the input.

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

A little off topic, but I have always been a big fan of Johannes Steinhoff, and Walter Krupinski. So much so that I gave them both one of my original paintings of one of the aircraft they flew. Every time I wrote them for info. they always wrote back. ( like most of the German pilots I wrote to) Unfortunately I have not had as good of luck with the RAF pilots. Bob

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

A lot of mumbling but nobody asked Goering as yet. ;)

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Who want's to go where he is - and have a hope of comming back?

bregds
SES

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Hermann strikes back! ;)
Seriously, I suppose he was interviewed on that post-war, so a respective report must exist somewhere. My point is that nobody here thought about the checking the other side.

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Not really true, there have been several references to Koller, who arguably was part of "the other side".

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Yes. And Gollob.

To compare the previous sacking of Galland with Graf being permitted to remain in command of JG 52 when the whole Eastern Front collapsed, is a slight case of apples and pears. But let's not get lost on that. I think it's time to leave the subject where it is - until someone else brings in new facts - because I feel the discussion might get too heated otherwise.

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

I can only agree with Christer. Let's wait until new solid evidence surface. I will have a look in Kollers diary when I go to Freiburg again in december. Discussions involving Christer and Franek tends to overheat at some point This is not said to offend any of them!!

Junker

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

I do not see a point for heated discussion. I just only want to note that there must be a comment by Goering about surrounding events. I have heard a completely different version concerning Galland's dismissal and I would tend to believe it.

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

Franek,it would be interesting to hear other version of Gallands dismissal,can you enlighten us

Regards robert

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

It was Hitler who sacked him, and Goering unsuccessfully defended him.

Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
 

This claim does go against the grain, could you please state a source?