Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

From the inheritance of JG 3 Fw 190 Pilot Karl Kleinemeier I found a few pictures of his colleagues from JG 3 f.i. one of Karl Kosse. On the back of the photograph is written: Hptm. Kosse Staffelführer 13./Sturm/JG Udet vom Feindflug nicht zurück gekehrt am 24.12.44. südostlich Lüttich.” Did anyone of you ever heard if he and his plane were found somewhere near Liege ?? The 2nd picture is of Uffz. Robert Canaris . He is also mentioned as Kosse in the Vermisstenbildliste of the German Red Cross of 1957 for 13. and 14. Staff. JG 3 as "missing near Prenzlau" for March 1945. Does anyone know if he was ever found ??
Peter Monasso

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Sorry for the mistakes: "Missing Luftwaffe Pilots" is not of course Karl Kosse but must be: Wolfgang Kosse.
Peter Monasso

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Peter,

Have you searched about Wolgang Kosse?
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/kosse.html

Send me your email, I will try to send you something.

Adriano Baumgartner

PS: By the way, there is some books about Mackie available. Maybe you can find something additional on his own war diary.

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Christmas Eve over Eindhoven

On Christmas Eve 1944, Tempests from 274 Squadron were returning from a Patrol over Aachen. They ran into FW 190s that had just downed two Canadian Typhoons over the Malmedy area. Evan "Rosie" Mackie, later to become Wing Commander (DFC, DFC (US), DSO), filed the following report:
"I was flying No.2 to Talbot Leader in Red Section on a patrol Julich-Malmedy and while we were returning to base and approaching Eindhoven, I noticed approx. 8 Typhoons flying in the opposite direction at about 4,000 ft. They were in open formation. When almost abreast of these A/C at about 6,000 ft I noticed one of the Typhoons suddenly break formation and dive into the ground on fire and I did not see anybody bale out. I then noticed the machine which had been flying behind that one, had moved behind another Typhoon, which then began shedding large pieces and losing height. Although we were not close enough to these aircraft to identify one of them as an enemy, I realised that this particular one must have been, so I immediately jettisoned my long-range tanks and gave chase.
There was no R/T communication between myself and the other members of the section, as I had not heard the order to change to channel 'A'. The E/A lost some height then pulled vertically upwards. I identified it as a short nosed FW190 and opened fire with four cannons at a range of about 250 yds closing to 50 yds. I then broke off the attack as I was then rolling over on to my back. I gave about a 2 1/2 sec. burst and numerous strikes were seen on the wings and centre section of the FW190 by myself and F/L Malloy who was flying Red 3. After I broke away, S/L Baird stated that the FW190 levelled out, going very slowly, dropped a wing and then spun into the ground approx. 4 miles SE of Eindhoven, where it blew up."
It appeared that Mackie had shot down Hauptmann Wolfgang Kosse, Staffelkapitän of 13 Staffel, IV/JG3.

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Hi Adriano,
2nd Tactical Air Force Logbook says on page 136: "Dec.24 1944 274 Sqdn S/L. Mackie 1 FW.190 destroyed. E/A shot down at E.5104 after destroying 2 Typhoons." This could have been indeed the Fw190 of Kosse. E.5104 is a point between Maarheeze and Leende in The Netherlands but in the Dutch Loss List there is no Fw 190 as a real loss for this date at this point only a suggestion. I know http://www.luftwaffe.cz/kosse.html but this doesn't give the crash site for Kosse neither. Maybe he crashed just over the border somewhere in Belgium ? I was just wondering if someone did know anything about an excavation of Kosse and his Fw 190 during the past 60 years.
regards,
Peter
www.crashmuseum.nl
e: monassop@xs4all.nl

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Hptm. Wolfgang Kosse is still missing and he was NOT shot down near Maarheze, that is another Fw 190.

John

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

For what it is worth, here is what we have about this fellow:

KOSSE, Wolfgang. (DOB: 27.09.18 in Berlin). 23.08.40 Oblt., appt Staka 5./JG 26 (to 04.05.42). 01.01.42 Oblt., Staka 5./JG 26 (to 04.05.42). 04.05.42 trf to Schiessschule Grove. 05.05.42 appt Staka 1./JG 5 (to 15.05.43 then trf to Schiesschule Grove/Denmark). 10.42 Oblt., Staka 1./JG 5. 01.04.43 in I./JG 5, promo to Hptm. (RDA to be determined). 30.11.43 demoted to Flieger and relieved of his command for making an unauthorised flight and damaging an aircraft. 01.44 volunteered for posting to Sturmstaffel 1. 01.06.44 appt Staka 5./JG 5 (to 13.10.44). 14.10.44 Hptm., appt Staka 10./JG 3 (to 24.12.44). 24.12.44 MIA – in Fw 190 shot down during combat with Typhoon fighter-bombers near Liège/Belgium. Credited with c.10 (some sources claim at least 28) air victories.


We hope that thishelps.

HLdZ
DGS

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Peter, John and Doug,
I found a claim by Lt-Col. Kyle L. Riddle from 479th FG around 12:30hs, a Fw 190 shot down some 10-20 miles East of Liège...from a formation of 4 ships. Very interesting. Do you happen to have all the undiscovered Fw 190 losses that day? Maybe we could narrow down the 190 losses on Belgium...
Yours
Adriano Baumgartner

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Forgot to ask:
IF the Fw 190 claimed by S/L Mackie is NOT the machine flown by Hptm Kosse, do we have a possible victim that matches Mackie's claim ( near Maarheze )?

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Hello,

24th December 1944 was a busy day, especially in the Liege-Eupen area. Some crashsites have been located in that particular area but few identified... Interesting challenge to perform there.

Best regards.

ClinA-78

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Here the Answer from berlin. Greetings Peglar

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Der Fall Krawczyk habe ich in 1997 geklärt und wurde von der WAST 1998 beurkundet, er liegt in Lommel.

Gruss,

John

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Interesting posts.

I myself are investigating one of the last claims of Kosse:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=19167

I believed that Kosse came down near Maarhezen, but it looks like I was wrong.

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Xraymmx,

What seems strange about the loss of the Typhoon you are researching, on the previous thread, is that one article says it was shot down by a Bf 109, not a Fw 190..." From Hugh Halliday's "Typhoon and Tempest: the Canadian Story", page 93, quoting the 440 Squadron diary:

"They (Cumming in MN665 and F/O W.T. Dunkeld in PD462) were last seen at E5010 just after setting course with a third aircraft flying line astern of them. An RT warning to break was heard and they are believed to have been shot down. This was later confirmed by Intelligence and it was also stated that a Spitfire shot down the Me109 right after this."

Well...I will try to help on the weekend...checking what I do have back home...
Yours
Adriano

PS: Definetely a good search...

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

The key to the answer is in this post already gentlemen......have fun.....I like a good puzzle and I hope you do....

J

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Thanks,

This sets another light on the subject.

Ray

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Hello gents ,
I have these losses over Belgium :
24/12/1944
Liège south east
Fw-190 A-8
P-47-100%
WNr-734392
12./JG 11 Blau 15+l
Ofw Holland Albert (KIA) 22/02/1920 Barbecke
Buried Franken Stadt Sionzig

24/12/1944
Fw-190 A-8
P-47 56FG-100%
WNr-171506
2./JG 26
Schwarze 3+
Ogfr Schmidt Erhard (MIA)

24/12/1944
Liège area
Fw-190 A-8
WNr-739347
13./JG 54
Weise 14+
Fw Schelnast Otto-Franz ( KIA ) 12/08/1921 Wien
Buried Wachtberg-Derkum


24/12/1944
Eupen area
Fw-190 A-8
100%
WNr-737372
3./JG 6
Gelbe 5+
Lt Starzacher Kurt (KIA) 13/12/1923
Buried Lommel Belgium


24/12/1944
Liège area
Fw-190 A-9
100%
WNr-960220
4./JG 6 Blau 10+(of15+)
Oblt Lyons Friedrich ( KIA ) 21/02/1922 Bandoeng Java
Buried Köln-Sud Friedhof 62C grave 78

24/12/1944
Alleur
Fw-190 A-9
P-47 100%
WNr-960218
4./JG 6 Blau 8+
Ofw Schmidt Heinz ( KIA ) 15/06/1918 Rüstingen 50/159
Buried Lommel Belgium


24/12/1944
Eupen (env)
Fw-190 A-8
100%
WNr-737925
4./JG 6 Blau 2+
Fw Lenz Ferdinand (KIA) 08/02/1919 Speisendorf
Buried Köln-Sudfriedhof 62F/E96

24/12/1944
Eupen /Malmedy area
Fw-190 A-8
100%
WNr-737973
8./JG 6 Blau 11+
Uffz Götz Alois (MIA)



24/12/1944
Eupen area
Fw-190 A-8
100%
WNr-350255
8./JG 6
Lt Bahrdt Viktor

24/12/1944
St-Vith (env)
Fw-190 A-8
Jacht 100%
WNr-733986
1./JG 1 Weise 4
Fhr Grundmeier Wilhelm (MIA) 12/10/1924 Alt Seggebruch


24/12/1944
Liége south east
Fw-190 A-8
P-38-100%
WNr-960530
15./JG 54
Gelbe 12+
Gefr Döring Heinz (MIA)

24/12/1944
Olne "Egypte"
Fw-190 A-8/R2
WNr-682313
15./JG 3 Gelbe 7+
Gütersloh
Ogfr Hirschfelder Hubert (POW)





24/12/1944
Liège area
Fw-190 A-8/R2
WNr-682305
15./JG 3 Gelbe 19+
Gütersloh
Fhj Fw Hopfensitz Wilhelm (POW)

24/12/1944
Liège 9 km south east
Fw-190 A-8/R2
WNr-682191
15./JG 3 Gelbe 12+
Gütersloh
Uffz Klose Kurt (POW)

24/12/1944
Tongres area
Fw-190 A-8/R2
WNr-682739
14./JG 3 Schwarze 3+
Störmede
Fw Sommer Josef (POW)

24/12/1944
Tongres – Liége area
Fw-190 A-9
Typhoon -100%
WNr-205265
13./JG 3 Weise 6+
Hptm Kosse Wolfgang (MIA) 27/09/1919 Berlin









24/12/1944
Vervier (env)
Me Bf-109 G-10
P-51 Bailed out -100%-12H00
WNr-490159
4./JG 3 Grune 14+
Uffz Möllerke Kurt (POW) 1924


24/12/1944
St-Vith east
Me Bf-109 G-14
WNr-462658
2./JG 27
Obfhr Klick Max-Heinz ( POW )


24/12/1944
Malmedy east
Fw-190 D-9
P-47 36FG-100%
WNr-210146
5./JG 26 Weise 1+
Uffz Walter Hans-Georg ( KIA )

24/12/1944
Eupen area
Fw-190 D-9
WNr-210912
1./JG 26 Weise 9+
Uffz Kabowski Erwin ( POW )






24/12/1944
Liège area
Fw-190 D-9
WNr-600164
1./JG 26 Weise 10+
Lt Krieger Hans-Hermann ( WND+POW )

24/12/1944
Eupen area
Fw-190 D-9
WNr-210188
6./JG 26 Schwarze 5+
Lt Benz Siegfried (KIA) 17/01/1924 Nagold
Buried at Düsseldorf 112/P/135


24/12/1944
Liège / Bastogne
Fw-190 D-9
Tempest 274 Sqdn - P-47
WNr-210114
6./JG 26
Schwarze 11+
Lt Paul Arthur ( MIA )

24/12/1944
Huy south east
Fw-190 D-9
P-38 367FG-100%- 11H30
WNr-600174
1./JG 26 Blanc 13+
Uffz Jesinger Wilhelm ( MIA )






24/12/1944
Liège area
Fw-190 A-8/R2
WNr-682776
15./JG 3 Gelbe 6+
Gütersloh
Uffz Kapteina Karl ( POW-WIA )

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

On the road from Maarheeze to Soerendonk about 300 mtr. from the church they found a luftwaffe pilot in full gear. This turned out to be Lt. G.Rieckhoff. (Fw109A-9 980540* 1./JG 6) who was killed 24-12-1944. Could this be a match?
There is also recorded another Fw109 from 1./JG 26 on the same date between Eindhoven and Maarheeze. No further details.

Could this be a piece for the puzzle or only cause more confuzion?

Ray

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Yep, that is the answer of my little puzzle....the other Fw 190 of 1./JG 26 does not exist. Only one crash neer Maarheze and that was Rieckhoff.

John

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

And the typhoon of Dunkeld.

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Sure, I meant only one Fw 190 crash and I think that was clear from the post, we were talking about German losses not Typhoon's or anything else.

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Uffz. Robert Canaris is from my hometown. He is still missing, but was declared for dead during the 80ies

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Hi Alain,

Concerning this loss:
24/12/1944
Alleur
Fw-190 A-9
P-47 100%
WNr-960218
4./JG 6 Blau 8+
Ofw Schmidt Heinz ( KIA ) 15/06/1918 Rüstingen 50/159
Buried Lommel Belgium

For Christ'Sake, what is the primary source for this given location of Alleur?

It seems he was located (and identified) near Bilzensteenweg in Tongeren in 1991 by Rudi Simons. Perhaps Rudi (user of this forum) may add info's.

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Missing Lufwaffe Pilots
 

Anyone to follow this interesting thread?