JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

I started a conversation with a member of this forum about the JG 301 markings and came to mention the FW 190 "black 9" with the "wrong" RV band (red/yellow instead of yellow/red). LLv34 then mentionned the fact that these planes could be from JG5 (faded black/yellow really looks like red/yellow on a BW pic, doesn't it ?). after looking at the pics from the actual planes I seem to be lost ... has anyone heard of this "inversion" ? do we have actual evidence that when getting their planes from JG11 the guys actually painted the red band on the wrong side ?

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Hi gibsonfndr,

Thanks to expose this question better than i could about those two strange JG 301 Fw 190 with inverted fuselage bands visible in Sq Signal Walk Around... Which i think could also show airplanes from JG 5 ?

Note that except if Kjetil Aakra come here, another good place to ask this same question could be WWII Air War over the North : http://p219.ezboard.com/bwwiiairwaroverthenorth

Cheers!

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Hi.

Unless the colours of the numeral on this "Black 9" could be blue it simply cannot be a machine from JG 5. Only two Staffeln operated Fw 190s in Norway at the time, 9. Staffel with white numerals and 12. Staffel with blue (exact hue is a matter of debate!).

Could you perhaps post the photo in question? Clues useful to identify machines from 9. and 12./JG 5 from late 1944 to the end of the war are the cowling ring in Staffel colour and spinners in either white with black spirals (often, but not always seen on 9. Staffel's Focke-Wulfs) or blue with white spirals (12. Staffel).

Regards,

Kjetil Aakra

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Hello

The only units in Norway with Fw 190 with RVB was 9. and 12./JG 5 at Herdla. The RVB was painted on the fuselage late april 1945, and it is not likely that any of those A/C was sent to the continent. All Norwegian based FW 190 with RVB would also have the "Eismerjäger" emblem on the left cowling. Colors on the numbers would be white (9./JG 5) and blue (12./JG 5). A smal disk in the same staffel color would also be behind the balkenkreutz (IV group marking and not III group marking as expected)

Best from Norway
Olve Dybvig
www.luftwaffe.no

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Doc, as it states in the S/S book, the 2 a/c, being from JG11, is a much more viable conclusion than being from JG5. That is, unless someone can say that the WNr for Black 9 went to JG5.

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

so there we go with pics of these mysterious birds ...
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1...hwarze4-01.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1...hwarze4-02.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1...r/Rote9-01.jpg
as you might notice, no spiral on the spinner nor cowling ring so maybe it is JG 301 ?.
someone mentionned Norway and Olivier said the trees around the planes looked like trees from the northern countries (norway for example) all I can say is I've been to the north of Germany several times, including Schleswig Holstein and I can tell you you can find this kind of trees all over the country. Correct me if I'm wrong but Jg 301 used to be in Shleswig Holstein by the end of the war so the treees are not of great help !

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

I don't think these aircraft are from JG5. American personnel controlled the southern sector of Germany, which is where these (and many other JG301) aircraft were found.

The "reversed" JG301 bands are well known, no one is really sure which way round is the "right" way.

Take a look at http://www.stormbirds.net/experten/yellow15.htm and http://www.stormbirds.net/experten/p...2addendum1.htm for further details.

Hope this helps,
Chris

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Yes, I though it were these aircraft.

They are definitely not from JG 5. Forward coloured band is not black (compare with fuselage cross) and the chevron marking with small numeral is unknown in JG 5 at the time.

For the appearance of JG 5 Geschwader ID bands see this photo:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b3..._Aakra/d12.jpg

Kjetil

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Ok, JG5 seems not to be the best possibility...

Note: In Kagero book about JG 301, authors write that chevron4 was pictured at Hagenow airfield...

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Cross post Kjetil!

So let me thanks for replies and for this great and supposed unpublished photo.

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Hi !



When Laurent (ie: gibsonfndr ) ask me on private email my feeling about those 2, I answer they were probably more from JG5 than JG301 but without strong arguments, at least not enough to come yet on the board to ask you about. But well, since he open the tread I must thanks him for the pressure to work earlier than planned on the problem.



So coming back from a night reunion, I spent the rest of the night, up to 5am when my wife wake up asking for the silly man to sleep a little LOL, to finally conclude that we are really facing two airplanes from JG5!

One is ‘blue 9’ (W.Nr. 737938 ) from 12./JG5 the other is ‘chevron4’ from Stab II./JG5, (engine motor serial 339786).



Excuse me if I seems sometimes rude in the coming explanations it just to make replies shorter.



***************************************






1- JG5 got spiralled nose

Ø not a valid argument since it’s the same for JG301



2- JG5 got Eismeer badge on their port-side

Ø who told you there isn’t an Eismeer badge on those two on port-side?



3- JG5 got colored front ring blue or white

Ø who told you ‘blue9’ doesn’t have one?

Ø ‘chevron4’ is a Stab airplane so can’t get a staffel white nor blue front nose ring!



4- ‘chevron4’ is not a valid marking into JG5

Ø Wrong! ‘chevron4’ is not a valid marking into JG301! Actually JG5 keep chevron marking during all the war, and even a ‘chevron3’ marking is known in III./JG5 in 1943. On the other side when RV appears JG301 changed his chevron Stab markings for twenties ranging digits in groups and 1 to 16? numbers in Geschwader.



5- U.S. troops never saw a JG5 airplane since they fight on South Europe

Ø Same apply for JG301 airplanes since JG301 operated mostly in North-West Germany, I./JG301 ending with Hagenow then Leck airfields, the near available airfield to Norway from Germany, definitely in British sector to!



6- They are more probably from JG301 than JG5 except we find their W.Nr registered in JG5

Ø Well, W.Nr. 737939 from 9./JG5 is registered at Herdla among Luftwaffe airplanes left in Norway 10.8.45. So why not 737938 also into JG5 ? ( Source: http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/1945/werk.html )

Ø In Sq Sgnl walk around, ‘chevron4’ is thought to be a Fw 190F since there is not outer wing guns nor traces from removed ones > good their was ‘F’ model registered among Stab II./JG5 when none is known in the whole JG301!



7- Inverted fuselage bands is common inside JG301

Ø Wrong! None is known for sure up to know! The one from experten Decals is educated guess only, the photo is of pretty poor quality and my guess is that their published red band possibility is far better than the internet correction with an inverted JG301 red/yellow band.



8- III./JG5 Fw 190 must have a circle over the fuselage band

Ø Wrong! III./JG5 Fw 190 were transferred to II./JG5 in 1945 and none from the few I saw got the III./JG5 circle painted over the bands (we don’t speak about Bf 109 which had it)

Ø On the contrary, I will say that I./JG301 Fw 190 usually had a white horizontal painted over their RV!

The very few known JG 301 Fw without an horizontal bar are:

- two brand new D-9 from II./JG301 with bright RV painted from the previous day without doubt the horizontal bar will be quickly added,

- and two found in South Reich when the main unit was stationed on North: one is Fw 190A ‘yellow17’ found at Pilsen , and the other is D-9 ‘yellow or blue 15’ apparently without horizontal bar and found at Straubing, could they have been non operational aircrafts like JG301 school unit?

- perhaps a ‘blue8’ but I lack information…



9- Black is never grey on B&W photo and can’t be in the same tone as blue or red.

Ø WOA!! Please don’t repeat that again! Dusty fuselage Balken Kreutz are most often in grey tones and with reflects black could even be white! We must remember that B&W film react more to the light intensity than to the light tone (except of course orthochromatic film with yellow/red tone), and that yellow filter was of common use to make clouds visible.

Ø Look to this 2 examples they both show French MS 406, the usual aspect is blue lighter than red but sometimes blue is darker!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...bleu_clair.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../fleu_fonc.jpg



10- It’s more easy to add a red band in front of the yellow one if airplanes come from the JG11

Ø Arg, wrong again! Look to those two photos: JG11 got their yellow RV painted sometimes pretty large without need to paint a red one over the front part more than over the rear one, or most often a narrow yellow one is painted but near the fuselage cross so it would be easier to add the red band on the rear place !

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...JG11_large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...G11_etroit.jpg



Conclusion:

After digging the subject, to say those 2 airplanes can’t be from JG5 just because the black stripe from ‘blue 9’ looks to grey for you to be black is certainly not a valid enough assumption to convince me that they are from JG 301!

So what about you?

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Why so definite on the foward fuselage band?

Compare fuselage band to Swastika, tone is pretty similar

Balkenkreuz looks worn, paint could have suffered from exposure.

Balkenkreuz could even be an alternative to Black (though less likely IMHO).

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Nice analysis, Menu, but I think you should have gone to bed sooner!

"Chevron4" is not from JG5, despite your lengthy analysis. I can give you are lot of reasons, but here are the simple ones.

1. Marking style not known from JG5
2. Geschwader ID band is not black-yellow
3. Americans are in picturee, they were not at Herdl a

That's enough to dispell your notion, believe me!

"Blue 9" is not from JG 5 bcause

1. First fuselage band is not black, see my photo! These were freshly painted on JG 5 (applied very late) and very, very black.

2. The photo is from same series as "Chevron 4" and thus not at Herdla.

Anf finally, common to both photos:

THE PHOTOS ARE NOT TAKEN AT HERDLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...where all Fw 190s from JG5 were at the end of the war!

So, to be absolutely clear, these photos do not show JG 5 machines!

Ruy, I think you misunderstood my post. I meant to say that the forward band IS black!

Regards,

Kjetil

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Hi Kjetil, and thanks a lot to debate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kjetil Aakra Nice analysis, Menu, but I think you should have gone to bed sooner!

Indeed:

1. JG5 used chevron marking style only up to the last days of the war ( and I know for sure one ‘chevron3’ marking in 1943 in Stab III./JG5 ) when not any single chevron is known among late war ( ie: with the fuselage bands ) JG301 airplanes

2. Geschwader ID band is same tone as Swastika and fuselage Balken Cross

3. How could you be 100% sure that American never send any small unit in Herdla in 1945.







Indeed :

1. Dust could easily made a black band looks grey on a B&W photo.

2. I don’t know Herdla as well as you and so can’t say if there is forest or not there but the country in front of ‘blue9’ is pretty flat and well they perhaps somewhere else, a pity there wasn’t any caption on the backside from the photo to tell where we are



So I still doubt, even if not taken at Herdla…

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Hi.

Seems I forgot to mention that I have spent some 2 years at Herdla researching the airfield's history and helped start the museum there (http://www.museumsnett.no/herdlamuseum/).

I know the place intimately. There was very little forest there during the war, and certainly not near any dispersal area. So those two photos were not taken at Herdla, I am 100 % sure. :)

The "Chevron 3" marking you referred to was of an aircraft from Stab IV./JG 5 taken in Denmark (befoe transfer to Norway) and the marking was completely diferent from the one we're discussing here, with the Chevron (+bar) marking ahead of the fuselage Balkenkreuz and the number 3 (which was also coloured, perhaps green) behind.

Regard dust turning the bands into grey, all such bands of JG 5 190s that I have seen are very clear. Remember that these aircraft saw little use at the end and weere maintained in top condition up till the surrender.

Regards,

Kjetil

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

as a matter of fact ... Hagenow beeing in Schleswig Holstein, was a british zone wasn't it ? as is Nieder Sachsen ? does it mean NO american troops went there ? how about Herdla ?

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Ok Kjetil, i can perfectly agree that photos were not taken at Herdla airfield but this can't be enough to say that they are from JG301 using inverted fuselage bands never saw before and chevron markings also never used by late JG301 as well as Fw 190F registered among II./JG5 stab but not in JG301 and so on...

Note: one take-off in bad weather could be enough to add dust on the black RV...

So i m not yet convinced and JG5 is still the best possibility i can see!

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Fw 190A-8 in the 7379xx area registered in JG5, joining lost list and those known to have been found at Herdla on 10th of May 1945:

737935, 737937, 737939, 737941, 737943

So that could be one more argument to say that 737938 'blue9' could have been from JG5, no?

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Dear O Menu/All

Excuse me for jumping into an ongoing conversation, but if you look at what you just wrote, the common factor of all the WNr listed are they carry odd numbers! WNr 737938 is an even number. Without having a slightest idea how Luftwaffe issued their production aircraft to their units, it SEEMS JG 5 was handed over aeroplanes with odd numbers (perhaps Ago had two productions lines, one with odd and the other with even WNr's?), so in fact your listing rather gives the indication that WNr 737938 was NOT delivered to JG 5 at all. What WOULD be interesting to find out is to where WNr 737934,-936,-938,-940 etc went.

Cheers

Stig Jarlevik

Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Possible, Sitg, possible...

In Sq Sgnl WalkAround it seems authors found a document saying that 737938 was dammaged on 23rd of January 1945 when it was under III./JG11 command...

So you could be right... 737938 first delivery could be within JG11 then only after probably major repairs, it was transfered to another unit, but which one? :D

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

I need to make a few things clear.

1. The aircraft are NOT from JG 5. I'd really like them to be as that would be interesting, but too many things don't fit (see my previous posts).

2. I don't know which JG they are from and have of course not commented on that in previous posts, I can only say that they are not from JG 5. JG 301 sounds plausible to me, though, but someone with more knowledge on that unit must answer that one.

Here's a list of all Fw 190s at Herdla as of 10th May 1945:

Stab II/JG 5 : 581166 (A-8) and 63801010 (F-8)
5./JG 5: 350187, 732117, 737124, 732126, 732127, 732150, 732173, 732179, 732181 and 732187 (all A-8s)
9./JG 5: 120478 (A-2), 130436, 132173, 135415, 135446, (all A-3s), 732076, 732197, 737939 and 737941 (all A-8s)

As only 5. (previously 12./JG 5) and 9./JG 5 operated the Fw 190 in JG 5 at the time, it means that all operational JG 5 Fw 190s surviving the war are in the above listing.

As 737938 is not in this listing and the photo of that aircraft was taken after the surrender, I am sure we can safely say it was never assigned to JG 5.

I personally think that the odd-number theory is interesting, but probably just a coincidence.

Kjetil

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Hi Kjetil !

I give a second look to Olve Luft in Norway S.I.G. page: http://www.luftwaffe.no/ and it seems that the W.Nr list from airplanes in Norway on 10th MAY 1945 (or 10th August both date figured) was done from original German documents from 1945 and so could be consired as complete.

So yes it's ok, those 2 were not in Norway on 10th May 1945!

But this is not enough to convince me that they are not from JG5! They could escaped from Norway few days before trying to join their familly in Germany as others have done? Did this could happen inside JG5 as it had inside JG7 or JV44 for example?

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Hi.

Sorry to shoot down Your theory, but those days the traffic went the other way, from Germany and Denmark to Norway, which was pretty much the only German controlled area.

The only known traffic the other way around was larger aircraft which were used for evacuation from the east (and plans for evacuation).

The '<4' simply isn't a JG 5 aircraft, and I will try to substantiate this:

1. The soldiers in the photo are american! There were no GI's in Norway hunting for aircraft in the woods. The photo must have been taken on the continent.
2. The parts of JG 5 that had transferred from Norway had been known under their new names since the fall of 1944 (IV./JG 4 and III./JG 6 respectively). There is no evidence that the unit ever had the unit id bands before they were renamed, and well, they didn't have any FW 190's either...
3. The above mentioned parts of JG 5 (I. and II. Gruppe) had not had a single FW 190 in their inventory since August 1943 (I. Gruppe) and start of the war! (II. Gruppe).
4. The redispositions during the spring of 1945 in Norway still has to be studied further, but we are gathering information all the time. What is certain is that at least some of the Staffeln did not get their new designation before April 1st 1945!!!

The 'Blaue 9' is a slight possibility, but look at the photo Kjetil posted and the quality of the paintwork of the bands on the aircraft as they were being destroyed by allied forces - almost fresh paint!

Regards,
Andreas

Re: It's JG 301
 

As usual, I am entering the fray late.


I think several of you have summed up this argument very well, but here I go anyway.


These aircraft are not from JG 5. I was incorrect in 1985 when I illustrated Fw 190 A-8 5+ White as being from JG 5 (AIRFOIL #3, page 32). I now have color slides taken at Fürth which positively show the red/yellow RV bands of I./JG 301.


This aircraft is not unique for that Geschwader. The planes I have documented from I./JG 301 all carry the “reversed” red/yellow RV bands. As well as several color slides, I own a whole series of original prints of captured I./JG 301 aircraft. Included are Fw 190 A-8 <4+ and 9+ Black, and an addition 9+ Black (not the same aircraft!) All have the “reversed” bands. None of these planes were photographed in Norway. They all came from central and southern Germany and Czechoslovakia.


These “reversed” RV bands seem to be unique to I./JG 301. As far as I can determine, all other JG 301 Gruppen carried the correct yellow/red RV bands.


Steve Sheflin

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Thanks Mr. Sheflin, for your input. I think we all agree now that these are not JG 5 machines.

To Menu, there was no exodus of aircraft from Norway on or around May 5th, only to Norway.

Kjetil Aakra

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Steve It's a very important and definitive information you give us !

I have planned to learn more tonight about the motor serial number from 'chevron4' to see if it will lead me to an A9/R-11 and so to JG301 or to an F-8 and so to JG5, i guess it will be the first version LOL!

Thanks a lot to you and to Kjetil, it's always a big happiness to learn more about late war Luftwaffe markings! :)

Steve when and where could we hope to be able to see them ? Dont tell us there will be 2 years to wait for!

Olivier Menu

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

thoughts on this I./JG 301 a/c ?

Erich ~

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Ok, Erich, ok you can laugh at me i m completly lost with JG301 markings... It now appear that I./JG301 used reversed fusalage bands, and so II./JG301 could have used both white and red horizontal bar... What a mess!

At least you can agree that 1/ there is still many things to learn and to publish about this unit and 2/ that all i can do as a non historian is to work from what is already published to push you ( the historians ) to tell us more from your known but not yet published informations.

Thanks to all and shame on me...

But you know what?

I m happy :)

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

ah but I am not laughing. yes much confusion over the horizontal bars over the bands. Proof though that I.gruppe did not always wear the reversed bands is the typcial pics of Blue 7 during November 44 of 4th staffel right before the terrible defence of Misburg.

so experten on the board............white bar = II. gruppe or ?

E ~

Re: It's JG 301
 

we would love beeing able to see one color spic of these reverted RV bands ....

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

Hm,

Erich, isn't it strange to find all those reverse fuselage bands in South Germany when I./JG301 got Leck as last assigned airfield? Is it possible that they were not from I./JG301?

Re: JG 301 or ... JG 5 ?
 

JG301 late war markings, new understanding:

Since, thanks to Steve Sheflin, we now know for sure that reversed JG301 fuselage had existed, there is two possibilities:

1/ this reversed RV is not for JG301, but this is hard to believe since exist many other RV colors possibilies before going to paint reversed and easy missleading RV colors.

2/ and best solution:
Each JG301 group used different markings for their 2 heavies and 2 lights Staffeln:

GeschwaderStab > green + blue horizontal bar (see NASM Ta 152 restoration )

I./JG301 Stab > chevron + reversed RV (see chevron4)

1./JG301 > (outlined? ) white + reversed RV (see white 5)
2./JG301 > outlined black + reversed RV (see black9)

3./JG301 > outlined yellow + (see yellow 17 )
4./JG301 > outlined blue + (see blue 7)



II./JG301 Stab > unknown

5./JG301 > white + red horizontal bar (see white 21 or D9 white 12 )
6./JG301 > red + red horizontal bar (see red 22 )

7./JG301 > yellow + white horizontal bar (see yellow 8 )
8./JG301 > blue + white horizontal bar (see blue? 20 in Barbas book)



III./JG301 > unknown markings since disbanded before end of war and so no Allied post war photos

IV./JG301 > same as III./JG301.

Indeed one or 2 photos shows Bf 109G-10 with an horizontal bar but this is perhaps after disbanded IV./JG301 transfered some of his Bf 109 to II./JG301, especially if we remember, that Erich said us one time IV./JG301 had red horizontal bar ?

So Erich about your last photo > could it be a "dark blue 3 + - " from 8./JG 301 or a "dark green 3 + - " from Stab II./JG301 ?

Note: Could anyone owning AIRFOIL #3, page 32 confirm if "white5 +" got outlined digit or even better send me a copy ?
llv34doc 'at' wanadoo.fr

(slight edit in the presentation)