Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

This ebay lot contains a picture of a wrecked Brewster Buffalo in RAF colors.
The seller mentions the pictures were taken on Crete.
I thought it might be of interest to you.

http://cgi.ebay.de/K-NL-Kreta-Flugze...item27b7847d38

mods; please feel free to move this topic to the proper subboard...

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

What was a Buffalo doing in Crete?

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

The Fleet Air Arm took over a few from an ex-Belgian order and 805 Sqn. FAA based them on Crete; this may be AX814 ( 7Y).
For short history see

www.fleetairarmarchive.net/squadrons/805.html

Nick

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

Hi guys

May I humbly suggest you have a look at AIR WAR YUGOSLAVIA, GREECE and CRETE by Shores, Cull & Malizia (published by Grub Street) for more information.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

Brian,
I have the old Squadron version of AIR WAR YUGOSLAVIA, GREECE and CRETE and was wondering if there is a new AIR WAR YUGOSLAVIA, GREECE and CRETE out?
I have been wanting to build a Crete Buffalo model and is there any other info on the colors used on these planes?
Any one else have other comments?
Those photo's went for a large price.
Thanks Rick

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

Rick the Buffalos (B339s) supplied to Britain (with 28 ex-Belgian models) were delivered in the Temperate Land Scheme for land-based aircraft rather than the Naval Temperate Sea Scheme ie. Dark Earth-Dark Green above; undersides were a blue shade rather than the paler "Sky", confirmed by squadron members. Maybe Brewster's interpretation of the colour.
A good clear photo of AS417 shows the fuselage band (and spinner in this case) several shades lighter than the underneath. Buffalos sent to the Far East ( RAF, RAAF, RNZAF) also in these colours.
The 3 Buffalos from Egypt and sent to Crete had the band painted out, and a photo of a line-up in the Desert shows the 805 Sqn. badge under the cockpit. It's very unlikely that they were re-painted considering the situation , but the one in the E-Bay photo has the Naval symbols 7Y possibly applied on the carrier.
Most British Buffalos were F2A-2s , the Belgians were F2A-3s. The Crete ones didn't last long .
Regards
Nick

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

Thanks Nick

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

Rick what bothers me is the appearance of the 2 wrecked Buffalos on Crete ( there's a photo of a second, AS419 overturned in the Osprey book on Royal Navy aces). The very low contrast between the top colours would suggest the FAA scheme of Dark Slate Grey-Extra Dark Sea Grey which often looks like a single colour as opposed to the Dark Green-Dark Earth where the divisions are visible.
But I can't imagine why they would be re-painted in the Sea Scheme when they were land-based in Egypt and then on Crete; apart from the time required to do so bearing in mind the urgency of the situation in the Med. in early 1941. I think it's more a case of weathering and dust hiding the 2 colours; it's unlikely that a colour photo will ever turn up.
FAA codes were normally in white on the Sea Scheme as black didn't show up well but this has a black one which contrasts with the background ( green-brown ?)
If you want a Crete Buffalo model I think you need to make a few assumptions; a Fulmar or Sea Gladiator (or even a Hurricane) would be more definite.
Nick

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

Thanks again on the input.
Yes the contrasts of the codes is interesting.
Code are not yellow because the yellow in the roundel is real light so can't claim "its the film used" topic.
When they painted out the fuselage band maybe it was repainted all over.?
Like you said "assumptions" ,well said.
The "early " part of the war is hard to find facts because of loss of men and records.
But this is why I find it interesting, you have to keep digging to find the answers.
Rick

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

Thanks all!
Buffaloes on Crete, I've never come across that before!
Rgds, Muscateer

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

There's some confusion here. I'll try to correct some of the incorrect comments.

The UK used 2 types of Buffalo, the B339B which were the ex-Belgian airframes and the B339E which were RAF-ordered. Both the B339B and B339E were based on the Brewster F2A-2 (it wasn't called a Buffalo - that was the RAF's name) as used by the US Navy but with the maritime equipment removed and some customer-specific modifications.

Three of the B339Es were used in the UK for testing, the remainder being sent to Singapore. The B339Bs were originally intended for 71 Sqn but were refused by the unit's CO and ended up being used primarily by the FAA. The Buffalos used on Crete were all ex-Belgian airframes. They were delivered to the RAF in the Belgian scheme which was dark brown and dark green on top with aluminium lacquer underneath. During the assembly process in the UK, the undersides were repainted with Sky. It's unclear whether the upper surfaces were repainted in MAP Dark Earth and Dark Green but photos of B339Bs assigned to test and evaluation duties show a low contrast scheme which may indicate that the Belgian upper-surface colours were retained.

The main front-line operator of the B339B was 805 Sqn which also flew Gladiators and Fulmars in North Africa and Crete. The wrecks on Crete show "codes" 'ZZ' and 'ZY' but they have an odd appearance, looking poorly applied. It's unknown when or where they were applied but similar codes are not seen on other pics of B339Bs in use with 805 Sqn.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Mark

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

Here's a picture of a wrecked Buffalo, with British markings that I downloaded from a German album on E-Bay. The markings on the fuselage look like 7Y

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

You're right - my memory isn't what it used to be.

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

Don't mention it, my memory at 56 is slowwwwllly dwindling. I just remembered I had this picture somewhere on my computer.
Mark, do you think there's any way to get a listing of the FAA Buffaloes at Crete and possibly identify this example? The resolution on the picture is too indistinct to be able to read the serial number

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

I have it identified as AX814. The two other airframes recorded as being on Crete were AS419 and AS420.

Regarding our inability to read the serial number, I don't think it's the image quality that's the problem - it's damage to the airframe.

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

Thanks Mark!

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

Mark

Just out of curiosity, how do you ID this one as AX814? 805 Sq surely used more than those three you list have identified?

Digit 7 in the code stood for fighter aircraft and the letter Y stood for landbased airplane. They were probably applied in NA sometime in early 1941 when the sailors waded ashore.... :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

Only 3 Buffalos were used/abandoned on Crete - it was a detachment from 805 Sqn's main operating area in North Africa. The serials are called out in "Air War Over Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete" and, IIRC, in Sturtivant's FAA serials book.

If Y stood for land-based aircraft, why did one of the Buffalos have a Z?

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

Thanks Mark

Sturtivant in the FAA aircraft serial book is not that certain and makes no commitment as to which aircraft were left on Crete. Didn't check the Shores et all volume, but wish I could be that certain....

Regarding the Z, well FAA were clever or perhaps thought all their flat tops would be sunk, but Z ALSO indicated land airplanes (or shore based aircraft which was how they were listed)

Now all this changed from mid 1941

Cheers
Stig

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

There's confusion here between the first character (of three) and the last. The first character was often omitted, seeing how rarely carriers operated together, so 7Y is individual aircraft Y of the second fighter squadron on the carrier - presumably Eagle in this context. Or just on the airbase, if carriers were not involved. The full code COULD have been E7Y, if carried.

Re: Brewster Buffalo on Crete
 

You could be right Graham

Sturtivant does not list any code for 805 Sq at this time (or at least I cannot find one), hence my thinking they were issued when going ashore in North Africa.
Main equipment was Fulmar, but I am unable to find any useful photos of either Brewsters or Fulmars of the unit in question, except the one on AX815 + two more where all three seems to be totally void of any codes at all...

Cheers
Stig