losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Hello.

For confirmation, I would like to know the losses & claims of ZG 1 during the 14th july 1943.

By advance thank you.

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Bf 110G-2, 6289, n.n., , , Pz.Jg.St., ZG 1, , , , , 14-Jul-43, Bauchlandung due to Flak. Bf WIA., , Lfl.6/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.19; Vasco, The Sting of the LW, p.144, , westlich Kosjulcina, 70%, F, Bf Uffz. Kurt Dames, ,
Bf 110G-2, 6285, n.n., , , Pz.Jg.St., ZG 1, , , , , 14-Jul-43, Technical failure., WNr. 6295 per Vasco, a dup with BLECHSCHMIDT loss., Lfl.6/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.19; Vasco, The Sting of the LW, p.144, , Fl.Pl. Ledna-Ost, 15%, H, , ,
Bf 110F-2, 5202, Stengel, Uffz. Herbert, , , Pz.Jg.St., ZG 1, , , , , 14-Jul-43, WIA due to enemy fighters. Burned on the ground. Bf KIA., Flak per Vasco., Lfl.6/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.19; Vasco, The Sting of the LW, p.144, , westlich Kosjulcina, 100%, F, Bf Uffz. Adolf Heusinger, ,
Bf 110G-2, 6297, n.n., , , Pz.Jg.St., ZG 1, , , , , 14-Jul-43, Bauchlandung due to enemy fighters., 2.Staffel per Vasco., Lfl.6/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.19; Vasco, The Sting of the LW, p.143, , Lumwko, 100%, F, , ,
Bf 110G-2, 6327, Herrmann, Hptm. Wilfried, , I., Stab I., ZG 1, , S9+FB, , , 14-Jul-43, Gr.Kdr. Crew KIA due to Flak., , Lfl.6/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.19; Vasco, The Sting of the LW, p.143, , südostwärts Krapiwna, 100%, F, Bf Ofw. Albert Weinhold, ,
Bf 110F-2, 5107, Matschiowalli, Uffz. Willi, , , 3., ZG 1, , S9+TH, , , 14-Jul-43, Crew KIA due to Flak., Staritza per loss., Lfl.6/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.19; Vasco, The Sting of the LW, p.143, , 3km südwestlich Krapiwna, 100%, F, Bf Uffz. Hans Westermann, ,

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

I have two claims by ZG 1 this day (source Tony Wood):

14/07/1943Oblt.HeinzHogeweg3.ZG 1Il-454 483: 700m11.50--yesC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 27

14/07/1943Uffz.
Jung2.ZG 1LaGG-354 493: 500m13.15--yesC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 28



Still on your Normandie-Niemen project ?

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Many - pls keep in mind claims of VVS pilots, who operated in same area and time with NN.

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Hello Laurent

Thank you.

And yes for my bio about Marcel Albert and my project Normandie-Niemen.

Hello Evgeny

It's a long time that I look for the diaries with losses and victories of Sister russian units of 303 IAD.

Sometimes the diary of N-N said it was a French/Russian patrol, but not often.

Thank you.

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Hello Many,

I understand that your praiseworthy aim is to match the claims of Marcel Albert/Normandie-Niemen with Luftwaffe losses to find his/their potential victims. What Evgeny probably meant to say is that without taking into consideration the (possibly numerous) claims of not only 303 IAD, but of many other IADs of Soviet VVS operating in the same area(s) as Normandie-Niemen, you will get only premature results and that conclusions "who shot down whom" may be in some cases even misleading.

Ota

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Hello Ota.

Thank you very much.

Of course I agree with you.

But with Interviews, diaries, log book, combat reports with drawings, official documents y ou can minimize some mistakes.

Thank you

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

The majority of claims against Bf-110s on this date goes not to sister-regiments of 303 IAD, but to pilots of 322 IAD.

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Hello Nikita

Thank you for this info;

It is possible that the claims go to 322 IAD. I don't know.

I am not a specialist of VVS, even I am curious and very interested.

The difficulty is the langage and more difficult because in cyrillic.

I think the first thing is to know what is the order of battle for this date and this part of Russia, for Germans, Russians with the French.

After what are the claims and Losses, to sudy all infos

I am very interested as I said to Evgeny to know the infos from the russian parts. It will be very nice, if these infos can be tranlated in minimum in English?

Thank you Nikita.

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Here they are:

Four pilots of 322 IAD:
Mladshiy Leitenant Majorov, Lt. Kosolapov both from 2 GIAP, personal victories against Me-110 area south of Khutor Jelowskiy and Berestna/Jagodnaja.

Starhiy Leitenant Isokh of 482 IAD claimed three Me-110 in the area of Jagodnaja and Leitenant Arojan 1 Me-110 in the same area.

14.07.194313.27-14.25м/лМайоров А.И.лично1Ме-110юж. хут. Еловский2 гиапЛа-5
14.07.194319.30л-тКосолапов Ф.М.лично1Ме-110Берестна/Ягодная2 гиапЛа-514.07.1943с/лИзох И.Н.лично3Ме-110Ягодная482 иапЛа-514.07.1943л-тАроянлично1Ме-110Ягодная482 иапЛа-5
No officially confirmed Bf-110 for other pilots of 303 IAD (18 GIAP and 20 IAP).

BTW, do you know were there any losses fow Normandie-Nemen for this date except De Tedesco's Jak-9?

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Hello Nikita.

you write:BTW, do you know were there any losses fow Normandie-Nemen for this date except De Tedesco's Jak-9?

I don't understand what do you mean ? the victories or other losses of Normandie for this date?

By advance Thank you..

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Many:

What losses NN had on 14 july?

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Hello Evgeny.

As I said to Nikita there was only one French loss: Lt Charles de Tedesco in his Yak-9 coded white 4 between 2 and 4 PM approx.

Thank you

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Bf 110F-2, 5107, Matschiowalli, Uffz. Willi, , , 3., ZG 1, , S9+TH, , , 14-Jul-43, Crew KIA due to Flak., Staritza per loss., Lfl.6/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.19; Vasco, The Sting of the LW, p.143, , 3km südwestlich Krapiwna, 100%, F, Bf Uffz. Hans Westermann, ,

Handwatches were found, and it shows 15:17 as a time when it stopped. Considering a wreck details, I would suggest it stopped right when Bf110F-2 plunged into ground.

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Hello,

TheBf 110G-2, 6327, I., Stab I., ZG 1,S9+FB, was probably shot down by the 731 anti-tank battalion of the 5th tank corps.

Report of the 5th tank corps :

"731-й истребительно-противотанковый артиллерийский дивизион в подчинении командира 24 ТБР сосредоточен овраги 1,5 южнее Ржевка. Боев не вел, арт. огнем сбит один "Ме-110". В течение дня боев не вела. "

"The 31st anti-tank artillery battalion, subordinate to the commander of the 24th TBR, is concentrated in ravines 1.5 to the south of Rzhevka. He did not fight, artilllery fire shot down one Me-110. During the day, she did not fight."

ravines 1.5 to the south of Rzhevka is 3,5 km SE of Krapivna (Raume von Uljanowo).

It is very damaging that a French aviation magazine (Aces n ° 11 and 12) attributed the two yaks destroyed by the flak (information confirmed by all the reports of the Soviet units on the spot) to the ace French Marcel Albert.
Whereas already since 1988 CJ Ehrengardt in Normandie-Niemen Heimdal gave a more reasonable lead.

Besides, the French reports lie, because the Soviets only confirm that day a Me-110 for the Normandie-Niemen shot down by Lieutenant Béguin (who shares it with P. Pouyade).

And the magazine Aces lies even more by attributing to him 2 victories totally imagine for July 14, 1943.

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Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Question:
Would Luftwaffe pilots have their watches synchronised to local time or to German time (CET) or was this the same timezone nonetheless?

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Hello Tiger Timon.

Be careful, there is a time difference between the Germans (same as Berlin) and the Soviets (Moscow hour). There is therefore a German hour and a Soviet hour, with a delay varying from 1 hour to 2 hours.

15h17 german times it's 16h17 soviet times.

Have good week.

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Dear Lourent.
There are many Me110 claims by soviet AA units on that day in that area.

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Hi Many

Three claims this day. One in the West by Gottfried Kayl, a Spitfire at 1850 hrs 5./ZG1.

In Russia:-

Heinz Hogeweg an Il-4 at 1150 hrs 700 metres altitude with 3./ZG1

Walter Jung a LaGG-3 at 1315 hrs 300 metres with 2./ZG1.

Would you happen to know the forenames of the claimants listed, and would be pilots not BF's.

for 12.07.1943 Lt Schmidtal of 6./ZG1 a Spitfire at 0930 hrs 20 metres.
Ofw Hermann(not Wilfried) of 1./ZG1 an Il-4 at 1926 hrs 200 metres

for 26.01.1943 Lt Busch a DB-3 at 1020 hrs 600 metres with II./ZG1 (Franz?)

for 14.01.1943 Ofw Gruber of 5./ZG1 a R-5 at 1325 hrs bodennähe

for 21.11.1942 Uffz Motsch of 3./ZG1 an Il-2 at 0730 hrs 200 metres

for 08.09.1943 Lt "Schubel" of 2./ZG1 a B-24 at 1746 hrs 800 metres

for 10.10.1943 Uffz Becker of 1./ZG1 a B-17 at 1530 hrs 5000 metres, and another B-17 at 1545 hrs 5000 metres.

for 01.12.1943 Lt Oxfort of 7./ZG1 a Mosquito at 1145 hrs 100 metres.

for 23.01.1944 Fw Müller of 5./ZG1 a B-24 at 1213 hrs 6500 metres, and another B-24 on 23.02.1944 at 1213 hrs 6500 hrs......possibly a duplication, therefore correct date being in January. Also a B-24 on 26.06.1944 at 0945 hrs 6000 metres, and a B-24 on 29.05.1944 at 1013 hrs 6500 metres.

for 02.04.1944 Lt "Weissmann" of 6./ZG1 a B-17 at 1135 hrs 6000 metres, and Oblt Zweigg of 5./ZG1 a B-24 at 1147 hrs 4600 metres.

for 19.04.1944 Uffz Buchberger of 5./ZG1 a BD-3 at 1540 hrs 50 metres

for 06.05.1944 Lt Miller ! of 4./ZG1 a Boston at 1634 hrs

for 10.05.1944 Oblt Fragg of 5./ZG1 an Il-2 at 1459 hrs 2000 metres

for 29.05.1944 Oblt Frithof of II./ZG1 a B-24 at 1015 hrs 5000 metres, and Fw Held of 4./ZG1 a B-24 at 1032 hrs 3000 metres, also a name I just cannot work out Uffz "Maia" or "Staja" of 5./ZG1 a B-24 at 1012 hrs 6500 metres.

for 26.06.1944 Fw Braun of 4./ZG1 a B-24 at 0947 hrs 6500 metres E.V

for 16.07.1944 Lt Püschka of II./ZG1 a P-51 at 1035 hrs 3000 metres.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

08 10 1943 6./ZG 1 Bf 110G-2 150132 Lt Schwidtal, Hans-Georg Flugzeugführer verletzt

20 12 43 1./ZG 26 Bf 110G-2 120025 Ofw Hermann, Raimund Flugzeugführer OK

08 10 1943 Stab II/ZG 1 Bf 110G-2 6396 Lt Busch, Hans-Bodo Flugzeugführer vermißt

21 01 1943 4./ZG 1 Bf 110E-2 4522 Ofw Gruber, Johann Flugzeugführer vermißt


13 06 1944 4./ZG 1 Bf 110G-2 120059 Olt Witthoff, Rolf Flugzeugführer +

Asfor others of II./ZG1, I suggest look into losses of IV./JG53.

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Hi Evgeny

Many thanks for that, and pointing me in the right direction for the others.

Keep well

Johannes

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Hi Johannes.
Do You know any other claims of I. /ZG1 for late 1942 and early 1943, particularly Blechschmidt claims?

Re: losses & claims of ZG1 for 14th july 1943
 

Hi Evgeny

Should have them all, send me your personal e.mail address.

Kind Regards

Johannes