Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

Hallo,
please, do you know more details about crash of Ju 88 A4 wnr.2016 of Gr.Kampffl.Sch 3 somewhere in the Alps on 7 Feb 1942?? Do you know the crashplace?

The crewmembers were Gefr. Fröschl, Rolf(Sch), Ltn. Eisenhardt, Karl(Sch), Uffz. Riesemann, Filli(Sch), Gefr. Klug, Fritez(Sch), one of them died.

I have a document about crash of Ju 88 "Red 41" on tail without crew in winter 1941/42, maybe Ju 88 wnr.2016 is right candidate, isn´t it?

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

No answer I'am afraid Barkas

However Wnr 2016 has been listed in the past as an A-1.
I have practically nothing on the WNr of the Ju 88 so I may be way out here....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

Date reported is really 7.Febr. 42 , quite sure as a rule for that FOrum to post dates using figures , but for sure many fehlers would be missed...



Remi

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

Fröschl was the name of the one who, for sure , died

Rémi

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

Thank Remi,
but I find no statement about Rolf Fröschl, or his fate.

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

I guess, that WNr. should be 142016. NVM gives the other crew members missing.

Matti

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

Hi Matti,

is NVM giving more details about the place/location of this loss?


Greetings

Lino

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

Unfortunately not (Vermutl. i. den Alpen).

Matti

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

I would have to agree with Matti as to the WNr. 2016 actually being WNr. 142016 - if it was indeed a Ju 88A-4. This WNr. fits in with the earliest losses for this WNr. block. On the other hand, if it was actually an A-5, WNr. 2016 would fit as well. Either WNr. fills a 'hole' in my database - so far, though I have a 10% loss for WNr. 2016 in Mar-41 for Erg.Kampfgr. 6. Still working on 42 Schulen losses, and Matti is way ahead of me on recording of all this stuff!

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

2016 cannot be correct, because:
1943-02-23, FFS C 8, Ju 88A-5, (88)2016, DC+ED, 9 km südlich Wiener-Neustadt, Absturz infolge Motorstörung und Aufschlagbrand. Bruch 95 %.
Fluglehrer Uffz Biem, Karl, tot
Flugschüler Uffz Keil, Arno, tot
Bordwartschüler Gefr Voigt, Heinz, tot

Matti

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

Nd 142016 could hardly been also possible , as Gr.KFS3 is not a very front unit, nd no need for them to get the last models, but they maybe transfering the plane was at that time the Grosetto training activ with the germans ???

Rémi

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

I have the following Ju 88A-4 losses in GKS 3:

1942-01-06 Gr.Kampffl.Schule 3 Ju 88A-4 884600 8 km nordöstlich Fl.Pl. Barth Absturz. Bruch 100 %.
1942-01-28 6./Gr.Kampffl.Schule 3 Ju 88A-4 885646 Fl.Pl. München-Riem Absturz infolge Schlechtwetter. Bruch 100 %.
1942-02-07 Gr.Kampffl.Schule 3 Ju 88A-4 142016 Vermutl. i. den Alpen Vermutlich Absturz. Bruch 100 %.
1942-04-17 8./Gr.Kampffl.Schule 3 Ju 88A-4 884570 Fl.Pl. Greifswald Überschlag beim Start. Bruch 100 %.
1942-05-29 Gr.Kampffl.Schule 3 Ju 88A-4 886561 Barth Absturz infolge technischer Mängel. Bruch 80 %.
1942-06-02 2./Gr.Kampffl.Schule 3 Ju 88A-4 886613 1,5 km vor Fl.Pl. Prenzlau Absturz. Bruch 100 %.
1942-06-18 Gr.Kampffl.Schule 3 Ju 88A-4 884576 Fl.Pl. Barth Bedienungsfehler. Bruch 25 %.
1942-09-15 3./Gr.Kampffl.Schule 3 Ju 88A-4 886608 Südlich Noitlandeplatz Zingst Absturz. Bruch 100 %.


Matti

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

Sorry , Matti I would hv to check prior myself these losses , I wonder why to give new front-planes to a non-combattant unit ??? I noted also that places of losses beg. 41 are pretty distant one from another , quite seems to indicate a way Barth-Riem-Italy or could simply be the course of normal training flights ...

Rémi

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

I think, that some new versions were sent to the schools to facilitate training with them before the crews were sent to the front. The crews should be familiar with the operational aircraft before entering the squadrons.
When the Finnish pilots were at Werneuchen in March 1943 for Bf 109G-2 conversion training, the school had just received a few of this version, although major version was still Bf 109E. Some squadrons were at that time still flying Bf 109F. For the school personnel G-2 was so new and powerful, that the pilot trainees were a little bit reluctant to fly it and preferred E.

Yes, the crash locations are really quite scattered. Maybe the crews were training long distance navigation?

Matti

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

I checked on some log-books nd 4 hours flights pop-out with Gr.KFS so quite the time to hv a "Spaten" in Münich nd returned on the Ostsee cost , "Takt. überlandflug", "Sender-anfl.", nd a very special 8 hours flight "Instr.flug"

Rémi

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

The losses I have for A-4s for Gr.Kampffl.Sch. 3 match Matti's completely except for WNr. 6613 which I have as WNr. 6615 - and depending upon the quality of the Schulen docs one is looking at, is completely understandable. The digit '3' and '5' can be difficult to discern in many cases. In Feb-Mar of this year I hadn't yet done the Schulen losses for that time period so hadn't yet seen the Ju 88A-5 WNr. 2016 loss for Erg.Kampf.Gr. 6. No Ju 88A-4 had a WNr. in that range, so the the leading '14' has to be assumed. I'm sure that assumption may be disputed by some, but if you're looking at a file with 13K plus WNr. those 'assumptions'/discrepancies are pretty easy to see and figure out based on the type reported.

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

I think, that 6613 is correct, because it is from NVM and also because:
1942-03-27, 4./KG 1, Ju 88A-4, 886615, Fl.Pl. Dno, Überschlag bei Landung. Bruch 40 %.
Two months is too short a time for repairing 40 % damages and moving the aircraft to GKS 3.

Matti

Re: Ju 88 cr. somewhere in Alps on 7 Feb 1942
 

Agreed. Thanks for the clarification Matti.