Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

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3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

Greetings!

I am trying to find out roster (pilots list) for 3./Erpr.Gr.210, while flying Bf109E-4/B, before Staffel was equipped with Bf110E.

As far as I understood, 3 Staffel was compiled with most part of 4./Tr.Gr.186, Lt. Marx from 1./ZG1, Oblt. Wiing (from LW Staff?), Lt. Emmerich from 5./Tr.Gr.186. But I was not able to track down pre-Erpr.Gr.210 regiments of some pilots.

After Staffel was reformed and equipped with Bf110's in november, some pilots, as Emmerich and Schönfeldt, went to JG regiments. Oblt. Wiing went to Staff role(or test regiments ?), while some crews transferred to 1 Staffel (Ruckert) or 2 Staffel (Drawe). But I was not able to track down, where goes Buttner, Vogel, and possible others? Was Lt. Erich Disper a Bf109 pilot, then trained to Bf110?

Oblt. Otto Hintze (PoW 29.10.1940) StaKa 1.07.40 - 29.10.40

Quote:

II./ZG1, 4./Tr.Gr.186, 3./Erpr.Gr.210.
RK(24.11.40), EP(30.11.40), EK 1 & 2, Bomber Operational Clasp
01.04.40, 4./Tr.Gr.186, Blenheim "P8867"of F/O Harries
12.05.40, 4./Tr.Gr.186,Hudson, North Sea north of Borkum
Flew "Yellow 1+" as regular mount, used "Yellow 6+" as a spare.
Damaged by Burgess of 222 Sqdn. on 29.10.1940, bailed out and became PoW.

Oblt August Wiing (TFD)

Quote:

II./JG234, 3./Erpr.Gr.210, LKS1 ('43), E.Kdo25, E.Kdo262.
Bomber Operational Clasp
Flew "Yellow 3+"

Lt. Peter Emmerich (TFD to IV./JG51) StaKa 29.10.40 - 11.40 ?

Quote:

5./Tr.Gr.186, 3./Erpr.Gr.210, 12./JG51.
EK 1 & 2, Fighter Operational Clasp
06.05.40, 6./Tr.Gr.186 Wellington
10.05.40, 5./Tr.Gr.186 D-XXI
12.05.40, 5./Tr.Gr.186 Fokker C-V
24.05.40, 5./Tr.Gr.186 Blenheim
??.??.40, 3./Erpr.Gr.210, ???, ??
??.??.40, 3./Erpr.Gr.210, ???, ??
??.??.40, 3./Erpr.Gr.210, ???, ??
09.07.41, 12./JG51, I-16,

Uffz. Paul Drawe

Quote:

4./Tr.Gr.186, 3./Erpr.Gr.210, 2./SKG210.
KIFA 1.5.1941, in Bf110E on practice flight.

Lt. Heinz Schönfeldt* (TFD II./JG3)

Quote:

3./Erpr.Gr.210, Stab II./JG3
EK 1 & 2, Fighter Operational Clasp
11.08.40, 3./Erpr.Gr.210, Spitfire, Portland area
04.05.41, Stab II./JG 3, Lysander, 5 km. E. Deal
21.05.41, Stab II./JG 3, Blenheim
16.07.41, Stab II./JG 3, SB-2
08.08.41, Stab II./JG 3, DB-3
KIA on 11.8.41
*(Alternate spelling: Schoenfeldt & Schönefeldt.)

Lt. Horst Marx (PoW 15.08.1940)

Quote:

1./ZG1, 3./Erpr.Gr.210.
27.07.40 Hurricane, über See vor Dover
12.08.40 Hurricane, Channel, "P3803" Fl.Off.Lukaszewicz of 51 Sqdn
EK 2, Fighter Operational Clasp
was shot down in "Yellow 3+", but what was his regular mount?
Damaged by RAF fighters following raid on Croydon, bailed and became PoW.

Fw. Otto Rückert

Quote:

4./Tr.Gr.186, 3./Erpr.Gr.210, 1./SKG210, 1./ZG1
EK 1 & 2, Fighter Operational Clasp
24.05.40, 4./Tr.Gr.186, Blenheim, North Sea 20 km north of Ameland
11.08.40, 3./Erpr.Gr.210, Spitfire, Portland area
22.06.41, 1./SKG210, I-153 of 74ShAP, Maly Zwody.
KIFA in Me210A-1 on 31.1.42

Ofw. Vogel (TFD???)

Quote:

4./Tr.Gr.186, 3./Erpr.Gr.210, ???

Fw. Büttner (TFD???)

Quote:

4./Tr.Gr.186, 3./Erpr.Gr.210, ???

Uffz. Volz (KIFA 08.07.1940)

Quote:

4./Tr.Gr.186, 3./Erpr.Gr.210
Crashed on bombing training flight in Bf109E-4/B

Gefr. Ludwig Spreitzer (KIFA 18.07.1940)

Quote:

3./Erpr.Gr.210

Hptm. Karl Valesi (KIFA 07.08.1940)

Quote:

Attached to Staffel for short period.
Crashed on bombing training flight in Bf109E-4/B

All possible remarks are highly appreciated.

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

Additions, thank to John Vasco:
Uffz. Helmut Macher

Quote:

3./Erpr.Gr.210, 2./JG53
EP, EK 1 & 2, Fighter Operational Clasp
his first 14 victories are not known. His total score stood at 23m when he was s/d.
24.06.42, 2./JG 53, LaGG-3, -
26.06.42, 2./JG 53, Il-2, Poscharowo: at 20 m.
28.06.42, 2./JG 53, MiG-1, -
05.07.42, 2./JG 53, MiG-1, 5 km. S.S.W. Bahnhof-Malowkoye
05.07.42, 2./JG 53, MiG-1, -
09.07.42, 2./JG 53, Pe-2, -
26.07.42, 2./JG 53, LaGG-3, -
31.07.42, 2./JG 53, I-153, 8 km. N.E. Kalatsch: 1.900 m.
04.08.42, 2./JG 53, MiG-1, 49 753: at 1.000 m.
04.08.42, 2./JG 53, Il-2, 49 724: at 10 m.
05.08.42, 2./JG 53, R-Zet, 49 652: at 10 m.
05.08.42, 2./JG 53, MiG-1, 39 482: at 1.000 m.
06.08.42, 2./JG 53, MiG-1, 49 951: at 2.500 m.
07.08.42, 2./JG 53, LaGG-3, 49 361: at 3.500 m.
07.08.42, 2./JG 53, I-160, 49 382: at 3.000 m.
07.08.42, 2./JG 53, MiG-1, 49 971: at 5 m.
08.08.42, 2./JG 53, LaGG-3, 49 171: at 10 m.
10.08.42, 2./JG 53, Il-2, 49 333: at 200 m.
10.08.42, 2./JG 53, LaGG-3, 49 361: at 1.200 m.
POW 10 August, 1942 after being hit by ground fire SW of Stalingrad.

Fw. Wienpahl

Quote:

4./Tr.Gr.186, 3./Erpr.Gr.210
fate unknown

Fw. Michi

Quote:

1./ZG1, 3./Erpr.Gr.210
fate unknown

Iilg (John, I think correct wil be Lt. Franz Jilg)

Quote:

3./Erpr.Gr.210, Erg.St./SKG210, Erg.St./ZG1, Erg.Zerst.Gr. (last - probable)
Assault Operational Clasp
Very little known on this pilot
.

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

BTW
22.06.41, 1./SKG210, I-153 of 64ShAP, Maly Zwody.

It was 74. SzaP

Regards
mirekw

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

Mirek: yes, overlooked, it is my typo.

Added info on Lt. Jilg.

John: Fw.Buttner - the same guy with gunner of - Fw. Siegfried Troppl - Uffz. Otto Buttner of 2./Erpr.Gr.210? But Fw. Buttner was a pilot, but Uffz. Buttner - gunner...

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

Evgeny,

Here's something for you to chase:
Büttner, wounded in action with JG 7 in March 1945 flying a Me 262.

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko (Post 124074)

Same surname, different people. See my post above.

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Vasco (Post 124075)

Evgeny,

Here's something for you to chase:
Büttner, wounded in action with JG 7 in March 1945 flying a Me 262.

1. Lt Manfred Büttner, 1/JG-1, Wound Badge, Fighter Operational Clasp, WIA 5 December, 1944 during aerial combat with P-51's, belly landed at Schonwalde. WIA 25 May, 1944 during aerial combat with fighters NW of Kornwestheim. In a Jager Blatt article 1/2001, he is said to have crashed a jet aircraft on 3 April, 1945.

2. Ofw Erich Büttner, JG-51, 1 & 2/JG-52 (7/43), Kdo Nowotny (11/44), III/JG-7, DK-G, EP, EK 1 & 2, Fighter Operational Clasp, KIA 20 March, 1945. 8 victories in the Me 262, one of the first Me 262 Aces of the war. Alternate spelling: Buttner. 24 claims known.

3. Lt Fritz Buttner, 7/JG-2 (3/43 Channel), 9/JG-2 (6/43), Wound Badge, Fighter Operational Clasp, Injured in a crash at Vannes airfield on 24 June, 1943 due to a servicing fault. Alternate spelling: Büttner.

4. Uffz Herbert Büttner, 7/JG-77, EP, EK 1 & 2, Wound Badge, Fighter Operational Clasp, POW: Shot down with wounds during aerial combat 28 August, 1944. 7 known claims.

5. Uffz Herbert Büttner, 10(Jabo)/JG-26, Fighter Operational Clasp. KIA 5 February, 1943 during aerial combat with a Typhoon of RAF No. 609 Sq., flown by Flt Lt P Nankivell (KIA 2/7/43) SE of Hastings. Büttner bailed out over the Channel.

6. Johannes Büttner, JG-51, Fighter Operational Clasp, 16 known claims.

#2 pilot is most probable candidat. He could went together with Emmerich to 12./JG51.

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

Hello all,

Another one

Hans Roehrig posted in from Jagdfliegerschule 4 Furth on 23 September 1940.

Posted out to JG 53 in 1941. Later Ritterkreuz etc.

Source: document for sale on www.huesken .com.

Also for sale was a document with 10 signatures of officers in ErPrGr 210

Cheers

Russell

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell (Post 124089)

...
Hans Roehrig posted in from Jagdfliegerschule 4 Furth on 23 September 1940.
Posted out to JG 53 in 1941. Later Ritterkreuz etc.
Source: document for sale on www.huesken .com.
...

Thanks Russell!

Interesting, from Kracker Archive:
Hptm Hans Roehrig

Quote:

3./Erpr.Gr.210, 3./JG53, 9./JG53 (StaKa)
RK(10/2/42), EP(10/26/42), EK 1 & 2, Wound Badge, Fighter Operational Clasp
MIA 13 July, 1943 over the Straits of Messina after aerial combat in Bf109G-4/Trop "Yellow 5" with Spitfires near Catania Plains escorting Ju 52's on a para drop.
50 victories in the East, many multiple victories.
His 57th & 58th victories, two Spitfires in Africa on 12 October, 1942. Another known Spitfire 50 km south of Corro on 28 January, 1943. His victory count may be 80, as he reportedly downed five AC while serving in Erpr.Gr 210. Bowers/Lednicer, 75 victories.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/roehrig.html

Quote:

Roehrig was posted to 3./Erprobungsgruppe 210 on 23 September 1940. He flew many fighter-bomber missions over England and, according to one source, recorded five aerial victories during this time.

But what is the source?

http://www.huesken.com/onload/fotos/20422.jpg
http://www.huesken.com/shop/de/luftw...210-20422.html

Quote:

Lessmann Major
unreadable
Schoenefeldt Oblt.
unreadable
Schenck, Oblt
Drawe, Lt
unreadable, Lt
unreadable, Lt
Knappe, Hptm
unreadable, Lt.

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko (Post 124080)

2. Ofw Erich Büttner, JG-51, 1 & 2/JG-52 (7/43), Kdo Nowotny (11/44), III/JG-7, DK-G, EP, EK 1 & 2, Fighter Operational Clasp, KIA 20 March, 1945. 8 victories in the Me 262, one of the first Me 262 Aces of the war. Alternate spelling: Buttner. 24 claims known.
#2 pilot is most probable candidat. He could went together with Emmerich to 12./JG51.

Ofw. Erich Büttner is the one. Also, he was not killed in action on 20 March 1945 - he was wounded. I obtained the Namentliche Verlustmeldung for him for that date and it clearly shows wounded.

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko (Post 124090)

Thanks Russell!

Interesting, from Kracker Archive:
Hptm Hans Roehrig
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/roehrig.html
But what is the source?

http://www.huesken.com/onload/fotos/20422.jpg
http://www.huesken.com/shop/de/luftw...210-20422.html

Signature beneath Major Lessmann's is Oblt. Emmerich.
Signature beneath Hptm. Knappe's is Lt. (Walter) Kloβ

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell (Post 124089)

Yeah, Roehrig slipped my mind.

I should have photographed Hintze's cigarette case that he was given as a birthday present on 9 October 1940. It had all the names of the 3. Staffel pilots inscribed on it. Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

But You still have a photo, of 3 Staffel pilots on that event, 9 october, 27th burthday of Oblt. Hintze. We could try to recognize each face on it.

Got a reply on Roehrig: all his 80 claims were with JG53: 4 in 1941, 56 in 1942, 21 in 1943.

He had no claims with 3./Erpr.Gr.210.

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

John: what do You think, why following pilots didnt stay with 3./210, and were posted out to various JG (Bf109) units? Did they denied to fly twin-engined aircraft (Bf110)? It seems only Drawe, Jilg and Ruckert were trained to Bf110.

Lt Hans Roehrig
Uffz. Helmut Macher
Uffz Erich Büttner
Lt. Heinz Schönfeldt
Lt. Peter Emmerich

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko (Post 124104)

I would think that their flying qualifications only applied to single-engined aircraft, so they were shipped out to single-engined fighter units. Nothing more complicated than that.

Note that Michi (who was in 3./210) had previously flown Bf 110s with 1./ZG 1 in the Western Campaign in the spring of 1940.

Re: 3./Erpr.Gr.210 roster, aug.-nov.1940.

Yevgeny,

The claims you show for Schönefeldt in May 1941 are incorrect.
The Lysander claim on 4 May was made by Hptm. Heinz Bretnütz of II./JG 53. While the Blenheim claim on 21 May was made by Oblt. Otto Weßling if 9./JG 3.

Regards,
Tom