Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Hi!
Looking for any information possible about a B-17 that was shot down on the 6th of september 1943 at 11.00 and crashed near Weiler ob Helfenstein, Germany.
All help is much appreciated!

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Date-Type-Ser.#-Unit-Location-MACR

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Thank you. How do I read this chart? What do the different numbers mean?

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

first number is the date 1943 September 06.
second ist the airplane type B-17
third is the serial number 42-30478
fourth the country the plane is lost - germany
fifth ist the MACR number 3136 - they file where all known data off this plane are in.

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

42-3289 10.50 hrs dettingen
42-30335 Villingen
42-30161 crash place south germany
42-30300 10.20 hrs south of stuttgart
42-30201 near Geislingen

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Thank you very much! Any chance of helping me recognise the plane in Weiler ob Helfenstein?

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Where is Weiler - Helfenstein in relation to Stuttgart ?
what other towns near there?
There were 4 B - 17s crashed Stuttgart Area.
1 from 95th BG
3 from 388th BG
From time Ron Posted , # 42 - 3289 is a good possibility
Mike

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Thank you Mike!
Weiler-Helfenstein is West South West of Stuttgart. How do I go about finding the unit and plane number?

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

The MACR for 42-3289 gives the crash location (according to the German KU-134) as near Dettingen an der Erms, 12 km NE of Reutlingen at 1050. Reutlingen is almost due south of Stuttgart. Weiler ob Helfenstein looks on the map to be at least 45 km ESE of Stuttgart. I am not sure that 42-3289 is the correct plane.

Note: Weiler ob Helfenstein is very close to Geislingen and there is a note above that 42-30201 went down near Geislingen. However, when I looked at the MACR for 42-30201, the crash location seems to be given as Voves, France so I am not sure what to make of that.

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Thanks for the help and yes, you are right, it is ESE of Stuttgart, my mistake. Any possibility of viewing these records and documents online?

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Most of the MACRs are available online at footnote.com. Unfortunately not free. I believe you can sign up for a trial membership but I have not checked the fees. I have an annual membership as I use it a lot. In the past they occasionally would have a free trial for a week but I don't know if they still do that. If we can narrow the search down to a few MACRs I would be happy to check them out. But looking through 20 or 30 MACRs on line takes a lot of time.

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Most of the MACRs are available online at footnote.com, unfortunately not for free. I would be happy to check out a few if we could narrow the possibilities down.

Here is a link for losses in Sept. 430906 in column 1 would be the day we want. The Location is were the plane was last seen, not necessarily were it crashed. When dealing with locations near country borders, this can be a problem. I would be happy to check out a few if we can narrow the losses down.

http://www.accident-report.com/MACR/1943/m194309.html

Here is another link which can get the pilot's name, which can help in on-line searches.

http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/s.../43SepMACR.htm

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

This is the possible one your looking for B-17F-35-VE 42-5942 "Sky Shy" of the 388 BG, 563 BS. Piloted by F/O Myron A. Bowen.
8 POW
2 KIA (S/Sgt David E. Wiesner and Sgt. Joseph H. Redmond buried at Geislingen on 7Sep43)

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

I looked at the MACR for 42-5942. The crew bailed out near Ulm. It is not clear where the plane actually came down, there are not any German "KU" documents in the MACR on footnote.com. Wiesner was killed in the plane during a fighter attack and never got out of the plane. If in fact he was buried at Geislingen that would suggest the plane came down near there. Redmond actually bailed out with the rest of the crew. The crew survivors were told he died of a skull fracture in a hospital. The surviving crew members had two theories on what happened to Redmond. One was he was beaten by civilians when he was on the ground. The other was that he hit his head on the tail of the plane when he bailed out.

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Thank you very much guys! Does it perhaps say what aircraft shot them down? I am having a german complitation of a pilots victories and trying to find the B-17 that is mentioned in the report. The unique thing is that the pilot is a Nachtjäger and this is his only daylight victory.

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

The MACR does not say who shot them down or even what type of aircraft. There is actually very little about the attack or the damage it caused. They were attacked by a fighter and a 20mm shell hit the top turret and Wiesner, the TT gunner, was hit in the head. He was laid down on the floor of the plane and the crew could clearly see he was dead. Redmond was wearing a seat type parachute, the rest of the crew (at least in the back) had clip on chest chutes. They could not get the rear hatch open and so they went out a window. There is some speculation that Redmond may have had trouble getting out of the window with the type of chute he was wearing, although some crew statements say they saw his cute open. Some crewmen were told by the Germans that he was found unconscious on the ground and died later in a hospital. None of the crew saw Redmond on the ground.

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

To All -
I just got the new Book To Kingdom Come by Robert Mrazek.
It is all about the 9/6/43 Mission to Stuttgart. I am leafing
through it for Info.
From Book: #42 - 5942 " Sky Shy " hit hard by Fighters. One tore up the Fuselage ,
Killed Top Turret Gunner and wounded both Waist Gunners. Another Fighter knocked
out an Engine. A Flak Burst knocked out controls and F/O Bowen ordered Crew to Bail.
German Fighters shot down other 3 B-17s that crashed near Stuttgart.
I'm going to read it tonite and see if I can find any more Info.
Mike

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Does it say anything about who shot "Sky Shy" down? Thanks for sharing that information with the rest of us!

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

The Book does not give any specific Crash Locations , Just Stuttgart.
The only LW Pilot mentioned is Egon Mayer. He shot down 3 B -17s
over France.
MACR #s for 4 B -17s crashed Stuttgart Area:
95th BG # 42 - 30300 MACR # 546
388th BG - # 42 - 3289 MACR # 3066
388th BG - # 42 - 3378 MACR # 3114
388th BG - # 42 - 5942 MACR # 3121
Mike

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Ok, I can only come to the conclusion that "Sky Shy" mentioned above is the plane I am looking for. The geography is certainly the decisive fact here. Any chance that I can find a photograph of "Sky Shy" anywhere? I shall try to contact both the author of the book and perhaps local authorities in the muncipality of Weiler ob Helfenstein. Stay tuned!

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Max,

This link has some more information. Search for "5942".

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1942_1.html

42- 5942 (388th BG, 563rd BS, "Sky Shy/Wenatchee Special") shot down by Hptm Werner Schroer in Bf 109G-6 of JG 27/II Stab near Ulm, Germany Sep 6, 1943, Stuttgart, Germany. MACR 3121.
1 KIA, 1 died of injuries, 8 POW.

This link on Schroer would seem to have 42-5942 as his 86th plane shot down, E of Geislingen at 11:08.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/schroer.html

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Are you sure on the location? I looked at Tony Woods list which shows two pilots for the 9/NJG101 making claims that day.
Uffz Busch 11:28 vor Meesburg 700 m.
Uffz Konth 11:15 Fl.Pl. Grossefingen (I have no idea where that is)

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Gentlemen! Abschussmeldung of the plane mentioned above found, will post translated transcript soon!

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

OK, gentlemen,
The B-17 I am searching for, and whose Abschussmeldung (the German victory report) I have found, was shot down at 11.00 on 6th september 1943 by a Bf 110 from III./NJG 101. It was attacked three times, at 6200 meters, from behind and below, after the first attack, the tail gunner did not fire back. The plane caught fire, white smoke with flames from both starboard (right) engines. The German pilot saw seven shutes.
The plane crashed east of Weiler bei Helfenstein at Geislingen and was found pretty intact, bellylanding according to the Abschussmeldung, and the pilot and radiooperator were found in the plane. Seven schutes and crew were found alive.
Now, any chance of finding the identity of this plane with this further info?

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

The previous listed "Sky Shy" had two dead but one was MWIA and where buried at Geislingen. Two engines knocked out but lists flak and later hit by 20 mm shells which killed the engineer and radio operator died of wounds on the 7th.

B-17F (42-3289) "Wolfpack" 388 BG/562 BS pilot 1st Lt Edward A. Wick (POW)
"This a/c suffered fierce attacks by fighters between IP and target, losing one engine and damaging flight controls. With the loss of one engine and right wing on fire seven crew bailed out before a/c went into a spin and crashed on the east side of Dettingen an der Erms, about 7 miles north-east of Reutlingen, Germany, at 10:50 hrs. The R/O and ball turret gunner were killed in the a/c during fighter attacks. 3 KIA 7 POW." The 3rd member that was KIA was the tail gunner S/Sgt Rolland Allard.

Is the location of "Wolfpack" near Geislingen? If the pilot remained aboard he might have made a recovery, unless somehow it bellylanded on its on.

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Well, could very well be the "Wolfpack" at least according to the fates of the crew and the time. Dettingen is 57 km from Geislingen. Will contact local historian in Geislingen and see if he might have some further info.

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Hello Thimmig,

I am a local historian from the near of Geislingen and I'm very interested in the WW2 war casualties here in the district of Goeppingen. Therefore I'm also interested in this plane crash. At the moment I'm waiting for the IDPF of Wiesner and Redmond for further details about their death.

Would it possible for you to send me a scan from Abschussmeldung? When I get the IDPF from the two KIA I can allocate it to you.

Best regards from Germany
Alex

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Hello people.
Seeking After 1 year I found the only photo of the special wenatchee 42-5942 in the city archives. It shows the crash point in the hamlet above Helfenstein. The story of kill over this flight to Stuttgart on September 6, 1943rd . I will tell the real story in a better English in the next few weeks.
greetings from
southern Germany
lucky-lindi

september 8. 1943
http://up.picr.de/9993417ank.jpg

today februar 2012
http://up.picr.de/9993428qpx.jpg

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

This is a factual report, based on verified sources only!!!




Monday, September the 6th, 1943: aeriel bombardement of Stuttgart!!! And the “Flying Fortress” with call sign “Wenatchee Special” has been shot down.




Background data:


Type: Boing B17 Flying Fortress
Serial ID: 42-5942
Call sign: Sky Shy, later: Wenatchee Special
Model: F-VE


Bombardment Group: BG 388, Sqdr 563
Missions flown: 6
First mission: July 30th, 1943
Last mission September 6th, 1943
MACR 3121


Manning: Bowen-Crew


Pilot: M. Bowen
Copilot: W. W. Woods
Navigator: A. E. Copeland
Radio operator: J. H. Redmond
Engineer: D. E. Wiesner
Bombardier: E. W. Hasson
Left waist gunner: A. H. Smith
right waist gunner: H. E. Richards
Tail gunner: J. Frankenfield
Ball turret gunner: T. J. Czygier










































Load list:


Bomb load: 10 x 500 £ M-43 G.P. bomb


Bombing hight: 6,200 meter
MG ammunition: 7,485 rounds
Position in group: Low squadron






Weather forecast: Bright, partly cloudy
Weather in Stuttgart: Dens, heavy clouds, overcast




The mission


Mission 19 : Bombardement of Robert Bosch AG and of railway infrastructure in Stuttgart.


About 150 bombers of type B17, escorted by 47 Thunderbolts and 112 Spitfires took part in that mission. The 94th bombardment group had 21 planes, the 96th group consisted of 21 planes, the 385th of 23 planes, and the 388th of 21 planes. Additionally 4 further bombardment groups joined.


The meeting point was the English Channel, where the aircrafts of the 8 groups gathered with about 15 to 20 planes each and got into formation.




It is September, 6th 1943 at 5:47 AM. In Knetishall (England) 21 B17 bomber of the 388th wing get airborne to join the the other wings targeting Stuttgart.


Echterdingen, place of german night fighter-wing NJG 101.


It was Monday morning 10:27 AM. Major Thimmig's aircraft and another aircraft of his section, which both were BF110's type G, are getting prepared for the nightly mission, when air raid warning was sounded in Stuttgart. Because the order for launching came very late, Major Thimmig had enemy contact during climb flight already, without the chance for his squadron to get into formation. Only his plane and another BF110 formed a section, but the second plane could not keep up with Thimmig because of its inferior speed capabilities.


At 10:44 AM the first bombs fell on Stuttgart, where because of overcast and the density of clouds over Stuttgart, the loss of the target-marking plane of the squadron (the squadron had only one of it at this time) and the heavy firing of the antiaircraft defense, the squadron had not found the target. So, after the second unsuccessful run the bomber squadron unloaded their bombs in trust to luck over Stuttgart ( Old Chancellery, Breitscheid Street, Falkert Street, Rosenberg Street, Schwab Street have been hit).


Unexperienced and due to intense antiaircraft defense, some of the bomber pilots could hardly follow their wing. At about 10:50 AM Major Thimming saw 8 groups of enemy aircrafts, each consisting of 15-20 planes of type Flying Fortress II, flying at an altitude of 6200 meter (approx. 20300 ft).


The first bomber group he saw was fairly pulled apart with two planes being even more behind. Immediately Thimming tried hard to reach a position to attack the hindmost plane of that group. But he could only slowly decrease his distance to that plane, because it made effort to catch up on its own group at high speed. When only 500-600 meters of distance was left between this enemy aircraft and its wing, Thiming saw himself in a position to attack and started the attack from downwards behind. After a number of bursts from a distance of 200 meter to 30 meter aiming the aircraft body and the engines, both of the right-side engines got on fire. The burning plane turned down and tried to escape heading for Switzerland (emigration country, frequently used as safe haven for aircrafts struggling with damages). Engineer and turret gunner S/Sgt. Wiesner has been killed by the attack.


The complete defense flak of the wing now concentrated on Thimming, so that his plane received some severe damages.


Major Thimmig and his navigator, master sergeant Steckemetz, now chased the burning plane, attacked it further two times over the city of Ulm, and pushed it away from its escape course. The Boeing as well as the BF 110 received further strikes. The pilot of the Flying Fortress, F./O. Bowen, realized the situation being futile, decided to abandon the plane and gave order to bail out. Because of flak strikes received over Stuttgart, the waist hatch, which was best designed for bailing out, could not be opened, so that the crew had to bail out using the emergency hatch in the rear of the aircraft.


Landing by parachute, Bowen suffered a broken foot, so that he spent 3 month in a hospital and after recovering, was transferred to STALAG III. The rest of the detained crew members were transferred to STALAG III immediately as prisoners of war. After the war, they were taken back home via Camp Lucky Strike / France.


At 10:25 AM: “Luftgefahr 15”: Air attack expected in 15 minutes
" 10:35 AM: Air raid warning sounded
" 11:21 AM: All-clear sounded


During the air raid, at 11:05 AM, amongst others 3 observation towers reported that an enemy aircraft was chased by a German fighter, that fired at it in the area of Einsingen. The aircraft crew bailed out within the airspace of Ulm. It has been stated, that in direction of Oberberghof 3, in direction of Blautal 3 and in direction of Einsingen 2 parachutes were descending. Deployed military police and German Armed Forces patrols were able to detain 8 persons (young Americans). The detained have been taken into custody. The damaged airplane itself crashed down near Stubersheim and has been completely damaged. Allegedly, in the aircraft still would be a dead body. [...]”


Town archive of Ulm: B140/Nr.001

Major Thimming, whose craft had to cope with heavy strikes, broke up the attack and concentrated on his trip back, where he belly landed on Echterding airfield at 11:04 AM.


S/Sgt. Redmond, who apparently had problems with his parachute, did NOT!!! leave the aircraft (at this point, as a result of my investigation, I am contrary to the MACR report). After his comrades had left the plane, he took the pilots seat and flew the still burning Flying Fortress from Ulm / valley of river Blau towards Stubersheim, Weiler ober Helfenstein. Referring to eye witnesses, he circled Weiler ober Helfenstein (a small number of farms) 2-3 times for finding an appropriate touch-down area and approached to land in an flat angle with the landing gear down. Doing this, he apparently overlooked a mound of two meters hight. The landing gear broke off, the craft hit the ground hard and slit over the meadow, where it broke to pieces. Due to this crash landing, S/Sgt. Redmond's head was thrown against the cockpit screen of the plane what caused him most severe head injuries (according to a contemporary witnesses, who also was pilot with the Gerrman Armed Forces, that landing was an aeronautical masterstroke).


Despite their fear of the still smoking wreckage, the local community members, like the farmer family, that lived just a few 100 meters away from the place of the disaster, hurried to the scene immediately, gave a first aid to the still alive, severely injured Redmond and recovered him from the wrecked cockpit. Redmond cried out loud for water all the time. The sister of the eye witness I talked to cared for the wounds and gave him something to drink. The doctor, who was called to the scene instantly, stated most severe head injuries and immediately induced S/Sgt. Redmond to be brought to the hospital of nearby Geislingen, where he died of his severe head injuries the next day.


(Referring to the hospital report Redmond suffered from a basal scull fracture, fracture of the jaw and most severe internal injuries. Their bleeding could not be stopped, despite an emergency surgery.)


S/Sgt. Wiesner's dead body, that lied in the plane during the crash-landing, has been thrown to the front of the plane, so that one had to cut open the fuselage to retrieve it (eye witness: “That was not a nice sight”).


Both soldiers were buried at Geislingen cemetery. After the war, they have been moved to a grave at home.


Because Remond piloted the Flying Fortress, Lt. Schick of the III./ night fighter-wing NJG101, 9. Squadron, who wrote the site survey report on Sept. 9th, 1943, thought that the two persons from the wreck were the official pilot and the radio operator and rendered it like said in the report.


I took over the time data from the report, therefore possibly may be differences.


Data from the shoot-down report:


Major Thimmig flew a BF110 Type G


with 4 MG 17 and 2 MG / MK 151/20


Used ammunition:


MG17 : 960 rounds Smkv, Bv, Pmkv
MG / Mk 151/20 : 2cm incendiary ammun., 2cm. incendiary tracer, 2cm. dimmed tracer, 2cm. armor piercing ammun..,2cm ??? [no more readable]


IMPORTANT!!! Internet and half-truth: What I have read from the Internet and in a book is not correct and should therefor be corrected:

• Flying ace Hpt. Schröer is said to have shot down the Wenatchee: I haven not found any single written document that provide evidence for that statement.
  
  
• The Wenatchee would have been shot down by ground based flak: This is rendered by the archive of bomber wing 388. I contrast this with the shoot-down report of Major Thimmig

• Local residents are said to have killed S/Sgt. Redmond. This is refuted by local contemporary witnesses. Additionally, there is a photography taken through the side screen of the crashed plane and showing a dark stain on the pilots side of the cockpit screen, made visible after digital processing of that image. This is evidence for the cockpit screen being blood smeared. This is also what my contemporary witness reported, before I even obtained the photography of the Wenatchee.
• Redmond would have got his head injuries from the horizontal tail when he bailed out: This is not possible, since he was recovered from the aircraft wreck and did not dive.

Here are some more facts pertainig Major Thimmig, S/Sgt. Redmond, S/Sgt. Wiesner




Major Thimmig















Born October 4th, 1912 in Dresden


Joined German Forces “Reichswehr” in Juli 1934


At Juli 1st Lieutenant of the Air Force “Luftwaffe”


Married since 1942


1937 started with the training wing “Lehrgeschwader” 1 as a BF 110 pilot and later as a group adjutant of the destroyer squadron of the wing.
Missions in Poland, Netherlands, Belgium, France
On July 21st, 1940 he started his service for the night fighter wing 1 and was appointed leader of the 2nd squadron at airbase Venlo (Holland).
In February 1942 Wolfgang Thimmig was appointed captain and in June 1942 he was deployed as group commander for the III / NJG 1 at Twente (Holland). Thimmig was apointed major in spring of 1943. From June 1943 on, he started his service at III / NJG 101 in Stuttgart/Echterdingen as a group leader.
In October 1944 he was appointed 1st lieutenant and wing commander of the NJG 4 and has been deployed as wing commander of the NJG 2 shortly before the end of the war, where he stayed until then.


After the war he worked with several companies in Sweden.
In 1956 he joined the – at this time young - “Bundeswehr” (newly founded forces of the Federal Republic of Germany) and has been deployed as 1st military attaché in Sweden
He was decorated with the Svärds medal (high military decoration) in 1963.
From 1965 to 1967 Wolfgang Thimmig was leader of the GAFAG (German Air Force Assistance Group) in Nigeria and additionally was leader of the Nigerian air force for a short period of time.


Wolfgang Thimmig died on November 6th, 1976.


Decorations:

• Iron Cross of 2nd and 1st class
• Nachtjagdfliegerspanne in gold (decoration for night fighter pilots)
• German Cross (Deutsches Kreuz) in gold
• Trophy “Ehrenpokal der Luftwaffe” for 22 night victories and 2 day victories (one of the latter was the B-17 on September 6th, 1943)

Source: Max Thimmig




From the written decision of the recruiting board:




Name: Joseph H Redmond
Birth Year: 1926
Race: White, Citizen (White)
State of Residence: Massachusetts
County or City: Suffolk
Enlistment Date: 12 Aug 1942
Enlistment State: Massachusetts
Enlistment City: Boston
Branch: Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Branch Code:Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Grade: PrivateGrade
Code: Private
Term of Enlistment: Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law
Component: Selectees (Enlisted Men)
Source: Civil Life
Education: 2 years of high schoolCivil
Occupation: Waiters and waitresses, except private family
Marital Status: Separated, without dependents
Height: 68
Weight: 130




Name: David E Wiesner
Birth Year: 1920
Race: White, Citizen (White)
Nativity State or Country: New York
State of Residence: New York
County or City: Erie
Enlistment Date: 23 Jul 1942
Enlistment State: New York
Enlistment City: Buffalo
Branch: Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Branch Code: Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Grade Code: Private
Term of Enlistment: Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law
Component: Selectees (Enlisted Men)
Source: Civil Life
Education: 2 years of high school
Civil Occupation: Opticians, lens grinders, and polishers
Marital Status: Single, without dependents
Height: 67
Weight: 138






Should anybody have more information from verified sources, then please contact me!







References:
MaxThimmig
Stuttgarter Stadtarchiv (Town archive Stuttgart)
Fughafen Stuttgart / Echterdingen (Airport Stuttgart / Echterdingen)
Ulmer Stadtarchiv (Town archive Ulm)
Geislinger Stadtarchiv (Town archive Geislingen)
Militärarchiv Freiburg (Military archive Freiburg)
Archiv des Bombergeschwaders 388 (Archive of bomber wing 388)
Citizens of Weiler ober Helfenstein
MARC- Report 3121
Shoot-down report (Abschussbericht)
Combat report (Gefechtsbericht)
Air witness report (Luftzeugenbericht)
Site survey report (Anfassbericht)
Ground witness report (Bodenzeugenbericht)
Report of the observation tower guard of the air raid protection police of Ulm
Ancestry
War graves
etc.




Special thanks for the plenty of aid at doing this research to


Max Thimmig
Roland Swank
Hartmut Gruber
Jürgen Kuhnert
Dick Henggeler
Udo Keller
Dr. Vollmer
und many unnamed
contemporary witnesses


Author
Peter Lindenthal

Re: Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943
 

Hello Peter!

Thank you very much for sharing!

Herzliche Grüsse aus Oberschwaben,

Wolfgang