Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

Beg me pardon, but why? I remember old poor ORWO had varying tint depending on batch and sensitivity (UT21 was better than UT18 IIRC) but this also changed with time. Nonetheless I always wanted to have them in proper colours and not greenish. ;)
I think publishing the photos as they are makes little sense, especially as they are adjusted to changes during DTP and printing process. Removal of tint is simple process and does not affect colour balance, if anyone wants, he may turn the photo green, purple or whatever colour he wishes.

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

Dear Franek,

I'm sorry that you don't share my point of view with respect to enhancing old colour photos; I feel it is a little bit like forgery to change the colours in a way that you think things should have looked like. I'd much rather leave this bit of interpretation to the reader.

The good news for you is: You know where you're at with it so you don't have to buy it.

Cheers

Jochen Prien

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

Well, I may send you some prints done from the same negative but showing completely differend shades. I do not think it is a forgery. Please note, that we talk about changing profile of the whole photo, so it is always possible to turn it back into original form. It is also possible to add a small preview shot to show how the photo looked originally.
Argument, that I do not need to buy the book is valid, I am not interested in the Eastern Front. Nonetheless I have JG53 volume by Schiffer and I have scanned the photos to see them in more natural colours. Unfortunatelly the effect was not as good as it could have been with original slides.
Regards

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

Primoz, some corrections are too obvious. The sky is never green, at least in Poland.
Of course, you cannot adjust colours accuratelly, especially as printing process will cause more or less subtle differencies. But in DTP process you have to adjust pictures anyway just in order to print them properly. Printing photos as they are is a fiction or will result in horrible quality - this reffers both to B&W and colour stuff.
I enclose two scans done by Claes Sundin years ago, one as is in the book, the second one being corrected. Sorry, I do not have anything other at hand.
I think the difference is substantial and I cannot imagine anybody will guess the colours hiding behind the green tint.

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

As with Franek, I would prefer to get the color photos in corrected colors -- that is, if as in his example, you have a good color to compare against to start the balancing.

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

I'll second that! This series is what I've always wanted: a comprehensive and consistent treatment of all units of the Jagdwaffe by the most qualified and dedicated individuals in our field.

Amen! Keep up the great work.

Leon Venter

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

I know I have been a harsh critic of Prien´s books, but here I must congratulate mr. Prien for not forgering the photos. Franek, what you suggest is forgery of historical documents and must be judged accordingly.

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

Well, in fact most readers and modellers may scan the photos and play a little through image softwares and have their own interpretation about colors, it´s an interesting game.

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

George, the 2 photos Franek had kindly posted are very good examples to my contrary opinion. I would rather prefer to have the original colours in the photos
and scan and balance them myself then to have a spoiled image as shown in Franeks second photo with a redish image all over.
You always can balance the original if you have other color images of the subject to compare. Last not least - historical truth counts more to me.

Greetings from the sunny Costa Blanca, Spain
hihotte

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

If you want to correct a color pic you need a busload of additional information - where and when (which time of year, what time of day ...) the photo was taken, otherwise you don't know if the sky is "blue enough" or if the grass is "green enough". You can find many "overcorrected" color photos in various publications. The corrected photo Franek posted may be realistic if it was taken on a sunny afternoon of a cold winter day.

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

"Franek, what you suggest is forgery of historical documents and must be judged accordingly"

Actually, restoring photos to their orginal colours is not "forgery." After 60 years you can get some strange chemical interactions; and by restoring, if possible, the original colours -- or something close to them -- the photo becomes a more valuable resource for the reader. Yes, you need backgrounds or foregrounds to aid the reconstruction; but, it can be done. And, if you are able to, I'm all for it.

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

Well, I see a serious lack of knowledge and even ignorance concerning the matter. You must be awared that NO colour film faithfully reproduces colours. Therefore at the start we receive false colours. Then, during processing we may receive further errors, then if we are making prints, colour balance is set up individually, also to correct colours! Then during scanning the photo is again adjusted in order to keep authentic colours. Then again during DTP the photo is again adjusted to prepare it for printing process. Finally, printers give us a printed photo which is again slightly different to what they have received. Summarising, every photo is a forgery. The same applies to B&W photography, where several tricks .
Of course anyone may scan photos from a book and correct them according to his taste. The problem is however that the original photo/scan does contain much more information than the one in print. Therefore much better effects may be achieved when working with the former and not the latter.

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

Once you restore photos you are dealing with interpretations and the subjective choice of the one restoring the photo, whatever his qualified background. I'd rather get the unrestored photo and apply my own interpretation using basically the same tools.

Of course you can enjoy restored photos, I know I do, but it is important that their captions include the fact that they have been "enhanced".

As long as the material is closest to the original print you know you have more or less the same "raw material" subject to enhancement.

But I can certainly understand both sides of the argument.

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

Ruy
Just a question, are you awared that virtually every photo print you get from photolabs is enhanced?

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

Gentlemen, just a thought from one who is extremely interested in accuracy. I side with both parties to varing extents and for different reasons. On behalf of the "pro-original" group I fully understand not wanting to alter the images and thereby forever losing the true originality of the image. However, on behalf of the "pro-correcting" group i have to agree with the basic idea that by correcting the hue's you will come closer to reality. As one who tries his best to copy the truth, i cannot see how correcting the colour to closer represent the true, can be forging. We are after all only talking about correcting the representitive image and not the original photograph! So where is the harm in trying to show the image closer to what it would have been (thereby assisting the researcher).

Just my personal thoughts.

Geoff Pereira

Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I
 

As a consumer I would like the best of both worlds - that is both the primary and the corrected with some comments in the bak of the book about the process.

Regards~