Archeology / identification
 

good morning to you all,

We digged out the following: I would be inclined to bet for a Me110, since blade VDM P/N 9-11081 equipped the Me110, and the landing door and the machine gun support look like Me110 ones.

However, the small green plugs (in the box) on the left of the bullets are marked "Argus NW10". Could argus build sub components for Me110 engines ?

Any confirmation from you concerning the aircraft type will be welcome;

Txs

GC

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Hi!

The Me110 used 9-11073 prop as far as I know...


I do know 100% that the Me109E used the 9-11081...and I recognize at least 3 or 4 parts that are 100% Me109 E. Those are the armour plate, the oval hatch, and the rib section shown in the same pic as the hatch, and some various small parts.


The Argus NW parts are used in all luftwaffe aircraft, so we cannot use those to ID. :(


So 100% Me109 E


Mike

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Hi Mike,

thanks for answer, however, I have seen:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=9845

where I can read that this type of blade was used on both Me109 and Me110

so, where is the truth ?

Plus (i) the U shape support, likely to be for the rear gunner machine gun (so, not Me109) and (ii) the landing gear door, quite long (I shall measure it tonight to have the eaxct size) (iii) plus the local rumor that several people died in the crash, all this push me to the Me110 !

Tell me, which parts do you believe are 100% Me109 ?

Thanks,

GC

PJ: one more plate found there

Re: Archeology / identification
 

ooops..

Sorry Mike for asking the question "which parts do you believe are 100% Me109 "

I had not taken time to read you properly.

Sorry !

GC

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Hi Gilles,

At least one person must of lost their life as you have found a parachute release "D" ring (pic DCN0070.2jpg). Argus hydraulic connectors are found on all German aircraft.

Melvin

www.aircrewremembrancesociety.com

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Certainly Me 109 with pilot killed in crash.

The large steel plate is one half of the fuselage bulkhead armour that sits behind the pilot.

I cannot see anything (yet!) that tells us what sub type (eg E or F)

What dates on the bottom of the 7.92mm rounds??

Is there a painted number on the inside of the round hatch?

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Hi Andy,

no number painted in the hatch,

I shall check tonight the dates on the 7.92mm rounds and let you know.

I shall post more pictures tomorrow.

However; the question for me is : 109 or 110 ???
(the crushed landing gear door is huge ! it does not match with a 109. And how explain the "U" shaped support if we face a 109 ?)

GC

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Do you have a picture of the landing gear door?

I cannot see one in the photos you have posted.

However, I can see one half of the steel armour plate that sits in the Me109 fuselage just behind the cockpit. The bottom section is broken away.

Be careful with the 7.92 mm bullet heads.

Sometimes they can contain phosphorus. Be careful and keep them outdoors!

You also have the tip of one propeller blade.

You also have a tryre size: 650 x 150, I think.

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Andy,

Here is another picture of the door (On the first batch of pictures, you can see it on the second picture, in the background).

Can't the armour plate come from a 110 ?

thanks for advice concerning the bullets.

GC

Re: Archeology / identification
 

No, its 109 armour!

I can also see one of the little anodised hydraulic 'taps' from a 109 cockpit.

That isn't an undercarriage/landing gear door.

Looks like a section of top wing skin to me.

The question now; who was the pilot? What was the date of crash etc??

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Hi again Andy,

I checked the size of the "door" (wing panel ?) : roughly 0.5 X 1.50 but approx because it is quite crushed. Some paint markings on in it "nicht... e.." I would then say "nicht betreten" (do not walk) thus going into your direction of wing panel more than a landing gear door.

Marking on the ammunitions:
37 P15 S 1
36 P 18 S 6
36 P 18 S 6

I suppose 36/37 is the year ?

If you want I can post more pictures of parts if it can help identify.
Which parts would be best for that ?

Date of crash/name of pilot: very good points !
I am trying to get these but it is not easy: all the elderly people have disappeared. I called the local cityhall this morning and they "may" have some more news later this week. I shall keep you posted of what I get.

Best regards.

Gilles

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Yes, Nicht Betreten or Nicht Anfassen, perhaps?

From the dates on the munitions it would appear to be a fairly early crash.

Look for strips of alloy about 3.5 cm wide and inspect them for stamped numbers (perhaps four digits) as this could be the Werke Nummer. It looks as if you have some parts like that in the collection you have.

However, finding the W.Nr might not help greatly, especially as this seems to be an early crash and identification from the W.Nr alone could be a problem.

Do I see two coins in the debris?

I think I can also see part of the instrument panel mounted compass, but not sure.

Certainly seems you are in an area where there could be evidence to identify the pilot and/or aircraft.

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Hi Andy,

no Wnr found on the parts. They are so crushed. The only marking I saw was "VDM" (see last picture) so this is most probably a blade portion.

See pictures herewith: if you can recognize any component ?

Yes, there are two coins but not related to Me109: Napoleon 10cts coins found on the same place.

Thanks, best regards

Gilles

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Andy,

you were right: Me109.

Tyre size plate confimrs this (see hereabove).

650 X 150 was Me109 size.

whereas Me110 tyre size was 815 X 290 or bigger.

All the best.

GC

Re: Archeology / identification
 

No, in respect of the piece you thought was a propellor part - although VDM made propellors and related equipment they made other parts as well.

The piece in your hand looks to me like quite thin magnesium alloy? Not a piece of propellor. Possibly a portion of wheel?

The dates on the ammunition make me think this is an early 1940 loss.

I realise that you may not want to give away the location, understandably, but a town or village it is near may give further clues to help make an identification - especially to someone like Peter Cornwell or Larry Hickey. However....if it is near Toulouse then this is a very long way away from where one might have expected such a loss during the Western Campaign of 1940! I am assuming what you have found is a long way from there?

Yes, I thought the tyre size sounded about right for a 109.

Thank you for confirming I was right!!! ;-)

Gilles - I think you tried to PM me? I have now cleared space for you to message me.

Re: Archeology / identification
 

No problem: the crash happened in the French Pyrenees mountains, near Lourdes: could this Me109 be a Legion Kondor one ?

GC

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Gilles

No idea!!

Hopefully others will be able to come up with some suggestions for an identity.

Andy

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Hi Andy and Gilles!

These parts are 100% identifyable as Me109E

;)

The Armour - That shape and style is only Me109 E (not F or G)

The Oval Wing Hatch - Specific to Me109 E as the were design was changed in the F

The part of large skin (indicated as the gear door) shows wing ribs that are 100% the desgn type of the Me109E.

So 100% Me109E, and not F or G.

;)

Mike

Re: Archeology / identification
 

thanks Mike;

now, I "only" need to find the date and the pilot's name.

I keep you posted.

Cheers.

GC

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Having dug up a good few....I can safely concur with Mike.

Certainly a 109-E.

The 36/37 ammo is interesting, although I have found the same dates on Battle of Britain UK wrecks. I think the earliest I have seen was 1935.

Re: Archeology / identification
 

thanks all for your contribution.

I shall now investigate more about the history of this aircraft and I shall let you know if I obtain information.

I shall try to post next week additional pictures of the parts that seem the more interesting to me, for your expertise on them.

Have a good day.

GC

Re: Archeology / identification
 

I come back on this thread to bring you the answer:

it was a ME109 and details are as follows:

1943-11-11, 2./JG 101, Bf 109E-7, 5145, 5 rote, Bei Argèles, Absturz. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Gefr Riemer, Kurt, tot
Grab: Berneuil/Frankreich, Block 8, Reihe 12, Grab 301

(info from another thread)

So you were right Andy, it was a 109,

most probably a learning 109 from Pau or Tarbes; you can see vey well on Thomas Genth website :

http://www.thomasgenth.de/html/jg_101_pau.html

some 109 with special devices under the wings to help young pilots to take; This 109 we found may be one of these.

If any body has info or data about the pilot, they are welcome.

Have a nice week-end, all.

GC

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Gilles

I am pleased that you have identified the aircraft and pilot involved.

Just to clarify - I didn't identify the aircraft type from books or websites but from quite a few (40!) years experience recovering and handling this stuff!

Having dug more than a few of the 109 bulkhead armour plates out of the ground, and been on the periphery of various restoration projects, it wasn't very difficult to identify straight away that you were dealing with an Me 109.

Pleased to have been of assistance.

Re: Archeology / identification
 

Andy,

I did appreciate your expertise, no doubt I shall be in contact again with you in the future for similar discussions;

all the best

Gilles