Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

After seeing Andrew Arthy’s excellent comparison of Allied claims against actual FW-190 losses, I decided to undertake a similar exercise for Luftwaffe kills awarded against actual U.S. P-38 losses during the Tunisian campaign. Bottom line up front: German pilots claimed/were awarded 3 kills for every 2 recorded P-38 air-to-air loss – except in February and March 43 when the percentages dipped well below 40 percent. The kills were awarded to Bf-109, FW-190, and Bf-110 pilots. As an exception to the rule, I also matched up the Ju-52 gunner and his victim from April 1943. Otherwise there appears to be no kills awarded to German bomber gunners in the Tony Woods data – although it appears at least three P-38s may have been lost to bomber defensive fire.

NOTE: I removed the original attachment because Laurent found a math error. I fixed the mistake and reposted it along with my reply and thanks! It is the file dated 7 April.

Dates where no losses occurred or claims/kills awarded have been omitted.

Sources for U.S. losses include daily mission reports for the 1st, 14th, and 82d Fighter Groups, and published unit histories, to include ADORIMINI – A History of the 82d Fighter Group in World War II by Steve Blake with John Stanaway; The 14th Fighter Group in World War II by John W. Lambert, and An Escort of P-38s – The 1st Fighter Group in World War II by John D. Mullins. Chris Shores, et al, Fighters Over Tunisia proved useful when seeking a broader perspective on each day’s combat.

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Hi,

and how about damaged P-38 that made their back to base. I think they could be also regarded as "kill" because they were actually hit in the combat.

Regards

Robert

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Robert, the definition of a victory is "a destroyed aircraft". Claiming a victory when an aircraft was only damaged may be done in good faith, but it is still overclaiming.

The difficulty could be when a damaged aircraft returned to base, only to be scrapped or used for parts weeks or months ago.

Regarding the file by Mark there is a mistake on 3 Dec 1942: German kills are counted twice in the cumulative total. On the other hand Italian claims should be added to German ones on the Axis side.
By counting P-38 losses, IMHO F-4 losses should also be added as German pilots would claim them as P-38. I only know of one such loss anyway, on 28 March 1943, so that will only add 1 to the US losses.

My opinion is that in any air force in any theater, claiming 3 victories for 2 enemy losses is a normal occurence.

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Laurent,

Thanks for pointing out my math error. I knew I should have checked it again.

I did not count Regia Aeronautica kills only because they were relatively few in number in comparison to the Luftwaffe. Plus, I have less reliable information on Italian aerial victories/losses. I agree on the F-4 additions, but have not obtained the 3d PRG records yet. My analysis/figures will be updated as I obtain new information or have people point out mistakes.

When I look at USAAF claims versus actual Luftwaffe losses, I suspect that their verifiable percentages would be lower, especially in the early phases of the campaign, than the figures presented here.

I have updated the document and hope to attach it to this posting.

Sincerely,

Mark

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

I believe the reliable information on Italian aerial victories/losses in the north Africa would be available in Christopher Shores's soon to be published book

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Mark,

That is excellent work, and thank you for doing it. I have had a huge interest in the P-38 units engaged in the Tunisian campaign for a long time. I noted your first posts of about a month ago or more but at the time I had a child in hospital and am only lately catching up on various posts now that matters are happily fine again. I hope to respond in greater detail at some point - it may take weeks or even more !

However I cannot resist one question. Do you have the names of the Italian pilots who claimed the P-38s ?

Also I would slightly quibble with the liberal use of F-1, F-15, etc for the P-38 losses listed. Apart from the dire lack of detailed records I would venture that no F-15s or Gs were in N. Africa until the 82nd FG arrived and they came with a mixture of late model Fs and early Gs. This is an entire subject in itself as I expect you will agree !

Keep up the great work.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Mark,

I would be interested to here what you find out on Laftwaffe claims vs. Italian air force claims. We are still trying to find out who is the true victor of my uncle lost on 14 Jan 1943, Ltn Kurt Buhligen or Ten Ceasare Pinizza? Both Pilots claim a victory in the same area

Jim

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Martin,

Yes, I ruefully cut and pasted specific model designations on a master excell spread sheet because I could not stand looking just at P-38F. I realize they are not accurate reflections of the specific type of Lightning in some, if not many, instances.

Thanks for your kind remarks. I am doing research for my next book and instead of writing on the ground campaign first, I decided to do the aerial campaign. In the process, I have become a fan of the P-38 groups, mainly because they never seemed to succumb to low morale even though they surely absorbed some lop sided losses on occasion. The P-38s, by virtue of their range and numbers, clearly faced the most daily challenges experienced by USAAF fighters over Tunisia. Schottelkorb's and Ilfrey's accounts make that clear. During my next trip to the archives (in June) I will get the remainder of the 14th and 1st FG reports that I currently lack, as well as the 81st FG, and as many medium and heavy bombardment groups as possible + 3d Photo Recon Group. I have allotted three full days for pulling and copying records.

As a single dad with a nine and eleven year old, I sympathize with your situation last month. I am glad all has been resolved.

As for the Italian P-38 kills, I only have a very few names,gleaned mostly from forums such as this one or secondary sources such as Fighters over Tunisia. The 5 Squadra daily reports to Superaero during this period are very sparse with regard to such detail. I think almost the only one I have is: Tenente Ceseare Panizza from 81 Squadraglia 6 Gruppo 1 Stormo who claimed a 71st FS P-38 on 14 January - one of two lost (Lts Ivan W. Salts and Louis F. Meyer).

With Kind regards,

Mark

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

hi, Mark, you are talking about your "next book", does that means you have already published another book before? If this is the case, would you be kind enough to let me know name of your previous book? Thanks!

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Yes, I have published Victory at Mortain by University Press of Kansas and several others by the U.S. Center of Military History covering the Iraq War.

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Hi

I had known for some time that JG2's claims were basically dis-honest, but seems also that JG77 were bad also. JG53 and JG27 seem basically honest, and JG51 sort of in the middle, though even JG2 had a few honest pilots!

Good work done.

Johannes

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Johannes,

I intend to do this for USAAF Spitfires and P-40 Warhawks. It should be interesting to see if the claims vary by aircraft type.

Thanks!

Mark

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Is anyone else tired of this 'dishonest'/'unreliable claimers' BS? Give it a rest already. Claims are just that -claims. That they are officially credited - whoopdy doo - who's fault is that? Did guys overclaim? Yes, undeniably so, and not just the LW. Was it intentional? Well, we do know that at least with one LW unit the guys were apparently shooting at sand dunes, but when you're actually facing a real opponent? Don't think so. RAF BoB overclaiming has been documented as 3-1 - officialdom accepted it because it was decided it was good for the morale of the civilian population. The same ratio has been documented with the Flying Tigers. Put yourself in the cockpit of a fighter plane from which ever side you like. In a swirling dogfight with many opponents all around do you stare that 'claim' into the ground because you saw smoke or debris coming off your target? If you did more than likely you'd get yourself greased. Or do you move on to survive? How many times do you make a claim coming from the underside of an opponent, see hits and claim it as a vic, while one of your buddies hit the same target from the front or above? Did you see him? Highly unlikely in that hostile environment and you're looking to make sure someboby else is not on your tail. Trying to assign motive to pilots long dead from any side is just an exercise in futility, and rather unfair given that they can't defend their actions. This is true of all participants in WWII air warfare - LW, RAF Italian, USAAF or Japan. Get over it already. Document the air battles, the losses, the claims, and move on to the next.

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Very well said Jim, I couldn't agree more!

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Amen, Brother Jim!!

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

I would add on the top of what Jim has so rightfully summed up that these "dishonest", "unreliable", "overclaimer" and similar derogatory epithets tend mostly to be thrown at German pilots. Perhaps as a faint effort to vent frustration over the fact that there were so many successful German fighter pilots, whose reputation must be tarnished by suggesting that many of those 'kills' did not (could not) actually happen...

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

I beg to disagree somewhat with the latest posters. Being a bit cynical on human nature IMHO some tell less reliable stories than others because of various reasons (to gain benefits, to impress friends, simply being less objective to one’s own abilities or having less ability to see situation realistically etc) . Combat pilots being also only humans so IMHO that goes also with them.
On seeing smoke, on the Finnish Air Combat Report Form there were printed instructions which for example say that heavy smoke or even observed engine fire on target plane wasn’t enough for a sure kill claim.
And IMHO those pilots who got many kills were able to keep good situation awareness even while attacking and a good leader – wingman co-operation eased much the need for checking one’s six for the leader. Surely there were pilots who suffered target fixation but they probably got killed/badly wounded before they got really big scores.
I agree that trying to establish motivation of actions made some 65-70 years ago is very difficult and that our duty is not pass moral judgements but to trying to understand what happened in those now distant days. But info on claim accuracy differences also increase our knowledge.

Juha

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Excellent post Jim!

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Hi guys

On average only two in three claims end up with an actual crash, not just Luftwaffe pliots who on average were no worse, and probably a lot better than Allied pilots. But if you check Jg26's claims against allied losses they are very well matched, when you check Jg2's claims against allied losses the difference is so marked that one can only conclude co-operative fraud, also when both Jg26 and Jg2's claims are matched against Allied losses the 2 to 3 rule goes out of the window, but Allied losses are 1 in 2 claims. This is not based on any prejustice against any one pilot(how could it be when by statistics you know only of a problem, not who the problems are) it's just stating that Jg2 as a whole were not making accurate claims, in fact it is fraud as much as British MP's expense claims.
Afrika is the place where it can all be highlighted due to so few units. Regarding high claims being unbelievable you only have to look at how long it took, how many sorties and how many times they were themselves shot down to know that mathematically it is not only possible, but probable for there to be a few "100" plus guys in the West, these guys flew till they were dead, crippled or captured!
The fact that some Allied aces were themselves fraudsters doesn't detract from the fact that it was more wide spread in the Luftwaffe than first thought, and going by the Luftwaffe system you couldn't do it alone. Rudorffer who was a childhood hero of mine was able to do this by his rank, also he flew for the Staff of II./Jg54 in Russia possible with only one conrade for company (Kurt Tangermann) thus the opportunity was there, just compare there claims record together. I think it doesn't even come down to the individual, sometimes it would be a whole staffel, but on the other foot sometimes a whole staffel is extremely honest, and hurray to these guys!

Regards

Johannes

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Given that tens of thousands of people flew a fighter in the Second World War, I'd be surprised if there weren't a few frauds (and a few saints) in that number - every kind of person, in fact. But you just don't need deliberate fraud to explain most overclaiming. You could never prove it but after a career working in offices I wouldn't be surprised if the difference between JG 2 and JG 26 wasn't simply how each organisation interpreted and applied the rules before submitting a claim to the Abschusskommission.

I've posted research on I./JG 2's combat record in Italy (again about a 2:1 claim/kill ratio) but the thing I found hardest to account for was the unit's gaining a hotshot reputation with both sides within days of entering combat, which its overall results don't necessarily support.

A final point: even if (say) Hartmann "only" shot down 70 or 80, that is a spectacular performance when you recognise that most pilots never shot down any.

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Hi,

Nick's post reminded me of the following ULTRA decrypt from NA HW 5/240:

--- START:

From I./J.G. 2 to 1./J.G. 2 on 22 April 1943:
“1.) Criticisms of combat report on Hptm. Hepe’s victory of 16 April.
A) What parts flew off the Spitfire?
B) Did the Spitfire show trail of smoke on being shot up (if so, what colour?)
C) The eyewitness report still outstanding must be compiled on these lines and agree exactly with the gunner’s statements.

2.) Criticisms of the combat report and eyewitness account of Uffz. Hennig.
A) What parts flew off the Spitfire?
B) Did the Spitfire show trail of smoke on being shot up (if so, what colour?)
C) Position of the eyewitness with regard to gunner during the attack.
You are referred to the Geschwader’s directive concerning the compilation of reports by gunners and eyewitnesses and the correct completion of the pro-forma ‘Report of aircraft shot down and destroyed’. Late arrival and incorrect compilation of all these reports may endanger the chances of recognition by higher authorities.”

--- END

The paperwork must have been completed satisfactorily, because Hptm. Hepe was officially credited with this victory. Uffz. Henning also claimed a Spitfire shot down, and these were the only claims for fighters in this combat. 616 Squadron reported two Spitfires lost to enemy fighters at Brest, so it seems that this was one occasion when J.G. 2 was not engaged in "co-operative fraud" ...

Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Hello all --

IMHO Juha's post is "spot on", and his last paragraph summarizes my position perfectly -- claim accuracy is of historical significance, but attempts to determine the motivation of the claimants at this late date are pointless, trending toward insulting. In my belief that more data are always good, I've included enough in my new book (now at the publisher) to allow theater-wide estimates of the accuracy of the claims of the RLV day fighter force versus US 8th and 15th AAF fighters and bombers and also the accuracy of USAAF fighter claims vs the RLV day fighters. Here are my paragraphs introducing the subject:

"Special mention of victory claims will be made here. It is the author’s contention that while ‘losses’ are real – broken hardware on the ground – ‘claims’ are only notional – by definition, a matter of opinion. The proper metrics for evaluating combat performance in a given air campaign are thus the two sides’ losses, not their victory claims. Yet, during the war, victory claims had legitimate uses beyond mere propaganda. Victory claims were a widely used measure of a unit’s effectiveness. Given the chance to score, the best fighter units had the most victory claims. Skilful upper-level commanders knew this and gave their better units greater opportunities by assigning them the most critical tasks. Ironically, these superior units had a higher percentage of invalid claims than lesser units, but that’s the nature of the fighter pilot: the best ones were highly aggressive and self-confident, leading to victory claims that later evaluation could not substantiate.

"Post-war interest in victory claims and their accuracy remains high. Other researchers have compared the claims of individual pilots with enemy losses to calculate an ‘overclaim rate’ for those pilots. Similar estimates have been made for some combat units (Allied fighter groups and German Jagdgruppen). It would be of interest to extend such estimates to entire air forces and campaigns. Tables B–E contain sufficient data to permit claim accuracy ratios to be estimated for the RLV force versus 8th and 15th Air Force bombers and fighters (separately) as well as for both the 8th and 15th Air Force versus the RLV force. Figures for losses specifically to enemy aircraft were required for the calculations; these had to be distinguished from other causes. Details of how these figures were obtained are found in the discussion for Table C. Losses of 8th Air Force fighters after D-Day could not be split between strategic and tactical missions, and the RLV claim accuracy ratio versus fighters was not calculated past May 1944. Summarising the Table B results, the overclaim ratio versus bombers was 1.39; versus fighters, 0.97. Claims versus fighters were thus ‘perfect’, proving that the Luftwaffe confirmation process worked well when the number of claims was relatively small and crashes could be found and counted."

Note that the numbers in this quote cover only the RLV force versus the 8th AF -- for the rest you have to see the book. I hope this whets the appetites of some of you. Day Fighters in Defence of the Reich should be out in a few months (I have no better luck at predicting exact dates than Jochen.)

Horrido!

Don

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

As the guy who "started" this thread, albeit with no inkling of the discussion that would take place, I find it interesting to see how various folks interpret the information. My interest is in how the Luftwaffe performed against a new threat flying a somewhat unique aircraft (though I am going to look at USAAF P-40s and Spitfires in the same manner). I found the trends, e.g. higher losses in Dec 42 and Jan 43 dropping by more than half for the remainder of the campaign - with no comparable drop in US fighter group operational tempo - to be very interesting. Yet the kills versus claims were most accurate when the US losses were highest. I dont leap to the conclusion that pilots are not telling the truth. Pilots are part of organizations governed by regulations and overseen by a chain of command. Don Caldwell and Juha are closer than most in describing these dyanmics. In my mind, probably because I have heretofore been interested only in ground combat, I am not looking at how a nationality does or how a particular airframe performs. Tunisia, for my purposes, offers a quantifiable theater with manageable numbers of airplanes to track down using primary sources (which are pretty good for the USAAF if you know where to find them). So, for anyone who took offense at a percieved suggestion that Luftwaffe fighters aces werent entirely honest, please accept an apology for any unintended slight. I must admit that the only reason I plan to concentrate on the USAAF rather than the Luftwaffe or RAF for that campaign is that I am predominately an English speaker (though my "aviation" German is fairly good having been born in Heidelberg and lived for some time in Schweinfurt) and the US National Archives is only 30 miles from my home. I will post my follow-on research if anyone would like to take a look at it because I do welcome the comments and thoughts that all have provided. That said, anyone who would like to help me with the Luftwaffe side of the house, especially in terms of air to air losses for zerstorers,transports, bombers, and such, I would welcome the help. I am pretty set for information on German single seat fighters once Die Jagdfliegerverbande der Deutschen Luftwafe Teil 11/II comes out. That is an excellent reference source and overall series IMHO.

Cheers,

Mark R.

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Hi all.

Re Tunis losses of P-38s. The three fighter group histories are probable 95 % OK, but I can recall talking to Joel Owens in 1990, about the lack of reports evidence etc for what his squadron did in Feb 43. Hoever I havent found anythingat the intelligence operationa commend levels. What is totally lacking is the PR Group. The is one very belated listing for a F-5 that was lost to II JG 2, but I would suggest that leaves a good 10 to 20 short, There are references to 3PRG lost one but no details etc. I would suggest lone P-38's at a very high altitude are likley to be PR aircraft.

Russell

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

-Mark thanks for your thorough research. It is welcome by many to be sure.

In my case the focus stems not from a desire to denigrate experten, but rather from my admiration of and intense interest in the Jagdwaffe, which due to prolonged combat exposure produced –IMHO- the finest combat pilots the world has ever seen. However, this interest has led to a desire to make a more than superficial examination of their claims, be they accurate or otherwise. Though the samples provided are too small to make generalities about particular pilots, a few famous experten such as Bühligen (112), Grasser (103), Ubben (110), Friedrich-Karl Müller (140), Goltzsch (43) & especially Rüdorffer (224) -cough, cough- do stand out negatively. Conversely the reputations of, Heinz Bar (221) Anton Hafner (204) and Crinius (114) have not suffered from this examination. If that’s offensive to the sensibilities of some; O.K. –then let’s say we take personalities out of it! By examining combats where it was possible to isolate units to combats where firm losses or lack thereof have been determined by Mark, the results reflect particularly poorly on JG 2 (22.7%); the other four units scored in a rather consistent range of 63.6% to 76%. That one unit (JG 51 @ 76%) was making claims at a rate almost 3½ times more accurately than JG 2 might have been of interest to the Luftwaffe high command, don’t you think? And it should be of interest to historians as well.


JG 51 19/25: 76.0%
JG 27 -2/-3: 66.7%
JG 53 19/29: 65.5%
JG 77 -7/11: 63.6%
JG 2 -5/22: 22.7%

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

I have always considered individual claims to be nothing more than an interesting statistic and often a nationalistic flag to wave for those with an agenda.

the real decider in all air campaigns has and will always be who controlled the battle space at the end , whether through sheer force of numbers or technical superiority it's the strategic outcome that will in reality decide which force was most effective!

An example of which is the huge disparity between the recorded losses of Soviet to Axis aircraft, yet in the end it was the Soviets who achieved air superiority over thier Axis counterparts!

the ability to to produce enough effective aircraft and crews nearly always out weighs the tactical advantages of the foe that cannot!

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Ultimately, your statement is exactly correct. While many of us like exploring the exacting details of claims/vics of air/ground battles - myself included; and in spite of my criticism of those that want absolute resolution of same to the point of making disparaging remarks about motive to the various combatants; in the end, the ultimate outcome of WW-II was a given. Once the Soviet Union, the British Empire and the U.S. were all aligned against the Axis forces, the end result was inevitable. It all boiled down to resources and industrial capacity. The Axis was, in the end, overwhelmed by resources & numbers they couldn't begin to match. End of story.

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

I read this thread with interest, but I don't think that appeals for political correctness are helpful. Wars are started and finished by highly motivated people, not machines. Warfare brings out the best and worst in the participants, so why pretend that some of them are not dishonest?

As any decent police officer knows, greed, power, and a burning desire to be popular are common human impulses. I wonder how many readers of this forum would rather study pure statistics and just avoid the human aspect altogether.

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

No one is pretending - and it has nothing to do with 'political correctness'. As I said in my original response, document the claims, the losses, match up where possible and move on to the next air battle. Overclaiming was/is a fact, from all combatants, from all sides - get over it. Claims are just that, CLAIMS. Calling anyone from anyside a liar, dishonest or whatever, particularly if they're deceased and can't defend their actions is what is dishonest. It just seems totally preposterous to me that here we are 60-70 years after the fact passing judgement on life and death events that we can't possibly comprehend. And video games don't count. Air combat as it was in WW-I or WW-II does not and will not ever happen again. All these guys had big brass cojones going face to face with, or wading into a melee with numerous opponents. Nowadays it's done with a missle from several miles away - not to take anything away from the courage and skill of modern day pilots. The other guys have missles too. There were no heads-up displays or such back then, and even the NF radars were rudimentary at best compared to today. That the officialdom from the RAF, the USAAF, the LW, the USSR or any other participant credited a CLAIM was not, ultimately, the fault of the claimant. The other stuff is just so much BS.

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Excellent post Jim, I agree.

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

I don't understand the purpose of equating courage with veracity. I won't comment on the pilots mentioned earlier, but Hans-Ulrich Rudel was referred to as a liar and overclaimer by members of his own unit. They called him out on truthfulness, but did not question his bravery.

The subculture of flyers, submarine captains, tank commanders, and other individuals who put great emphasis on personal glory and achievements actually invite others to investigate and challenge them. They bring it on themselves, even though it's natural that some of their readers will be suspicious of heroes and hero-worshippers. After all, very few infantrymen etched personal "kill markings" on their helmets or rifles, or kept score in a logbook. I'm not a psychiatrist, so I won't try to explain the detached manner in which some men painted billboard displays counting the machines they killed, with less regard for the number of dead bodies trapped inside the wreckage. More than a few people find that disturbing.

And no one has ever earned a free pass to avoid criticism just for being dead. Genghis Khan, Napoleon, and Hitler are not alive to defend themselves either, but I don't think we can dismiss all questions about their character because they have a military service record.

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Regards F-4A losses, there probably was only one during the campaign. After finding some material on 3d Photoreconnaissance Group, it appears they only had 4 - 5 operational F-4A's at any given time during February through March 1943.

Re: Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses
 

Hello
Have been very busy lately, that’s why a late comment.
Thanks to Mark for the very interesting info, must be a result of much hard work. And because P-38 was unusually easily recognisable plane, not much misidentifications to complicate the analyse. And thanks to Rob for calculating claim accuracy per JG, very interesting. The result of JG 2 isn’t a surprise but the figure of II./JG 51 is a pleasant mild surprise. The results of JG 27, 53 and 77 were more or less what I have expected on that timescale and in that area. IMHO that the appr 2/3 of accepted claims being possible to verify from enemy’s material is a good result and shows that the LW claim accuracy was generally still good during the Tunisia Campaign.

And Don, thanks for the interesting quotes from your coming book, the book seems to be very interesting.

Juha