Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Hello,

Carrying over from another post on questions about 103 SQ Battle losses, here is the list of photos we have in the EOE DB relating to 142 SQ Battle loss, but which we cannot match to SN or circumstances. Who can help?

Battle L5443. Belly-landed details not recorded. Aircraft QT*B a write-off. (Photo)
Battle. Belly-landed details not recorded. Aircraft QT*C a write-off. (Photos)
Battle. Belly-landed [at Audembert?] details not recorded. Aircraft QT*D a write-off. (Photos) (L5502, see post below)
Battle. Abandoned [at Reims?]. Aircraft QT*D a write-off. (Photo)
Battle. Abandoned. Aircraft QT*F a write-off. (Photo)
Battle. Abandoned [Berry-au-Bac?]. Aircraft QT*H a write-off. (Photos)
Battle. Belly-landed details not recorded. Aircraft QT*H a write-off. (Photos)
Battle. Belly-landed details not recorded. Aircraft QT*L a write-off. (Photos)
Battle. Belly-landed on beach details not recorded. Aircraft QT*L a write-off. (Photo)

I note that one of the photos of QToH, possibly at Berry-au-Bac, has the info that it was taken at "Le Mans." There may well have been two different a/c that carried this code, as there apparently also was for QToL. The accuracy of this info is unknown.

Regards,

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Hello,

Photos of QToD with Audembert handwritten on the back and it's wing through a hedge confirm this SN as L5502. Still need confirmation of place, date and crew for this FL.

Regards,

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Before Larry undermines what is left of my tattered reputation, I should explain that he is working from my summary of No.142 Squadron losses compiled for the campaign in France alone. As a result, he is looking down the wrong end of the telescope and the loss of L5502 on the night of 28/29 July 1940 (involving a namesake of mine just to add to the embarrassment) is 'beyond his ken'. Slow down to a headlong gallop Larry - we'll get there faster.

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

For QToD See my posting in Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

Maybe a poission rouge

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Hello,

For those interested in photos of the 142 SQ Battle loss photos of QToD, L5502, down on 29.07.40, two of them, including a readable SN can be found in the French Government ECPA archive in the Paris suburb of Fort D'Ivry; Luftwaffe Collection: ECPA #DAA 709 L24 and ECPA #DAA 709 L25.

Copies of these can be ordered at a reasonable charge directly from them.

Regards,

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Hello,

I'm trying to investigate a report that 142 SQ Battle K9333 that was shot down on May 14, 1940, was coded QToL. One source that has investigated this believes that the plane FL at Saint-Loup-Terrier, France, and that, according to the 142 SQ ORB, the crew was later picked up by car about 16 miles away at Ecly, west of Rethel. The crew was Pilot Officer H. L. Oakley, who was slightly injured, Sergeant Martin, and A.C. Preston. This seems like quite a distance over less than direct road connections to be credible, but it could have been possible.

I know that it is a real long shot, but is there any source explaining the SD and rescue of this crew? Perhaps one of the crewman later recounted his experiences, which have been preserved?

Can anybody help?

Regards,

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Battle QT-F L5476 abandoned at No21 aircraft depot Nantes/Chateau Bougen Aerodrome. Along with many other Battles.

Dave

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

After looking in the Battle flie book it say's L5476 went to canada? The serial number is smaller than the 105sdn Battle GB-X next to it (P2190). I will need to look at my photos in day light! the squdron codes are only on the left hand side of the aircraft, only F on the right. The other side of the 105 Battle is P5238, Which is a 142 aircraft no squdron makings or code letters.

Dave

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Hi Dave,

I have seen four different E-Bay photos of this 'F' in the scrapyard, but had not noticed the'QT' code on the other side until you pointed it out.
The most recent one on E-Bay had a partially readable serial number. It looks like L5436 or possibly L5430 to me. The former would be a great fit if someone had a better image of it to put the matter beyond doubt.
Any thoughts ?

Regards,

Martin.

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Hello,

Good discussion here. Regarding the last one on my list that leads this thread, we've located about 5 photos of this Battle, QToL, down on a Channel beach, very likely in France. There were two Fairey Battle losses in a raid on Boulogne, France, on 23 August 1940. One is believed to have gone into the sea, but the other could have been the a/c we're looking for. Can anyone confirm that 142 SQ had one of their Battles make a FL on a beach near Boulogne on 22 or 23 August? This would clear up one of these photo mysteries, if we can establish this.

Any help would be appreciated.

Regards,

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

I still cant make out the last two numbers of the Battle. In another photo of the scrapyard i can make out Battle K9202 N of 98 sdn.
The Battle on the beach i have got the location as Calais, dont know if this is right. All i can make out is right hand side L in front of the roundel, left side Q, The tail is broken just after the roundel.

Dave

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Dave,

The beach FL you are referring to is for sure QToL of 142 SQ. The crash location is probably a Beach at Boulogne. One view shows a line of houses on the shore. If someone from this board lives near Boulogne I would be willing to send them this photo and see if they can ID the location for us. If we can ID it there this would almost certainly date the photo to either 22 or 23 August 1940.

Regards,

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Larry,

There are house on the cliff behind and to the right of the Battle as it faces you. I can't see any on the left, just cliffs.

Dave

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Can anybody id this beach, where the 142sdn Battle crash landed? From these photos.

Dave

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

There are one or two sites where it is possible to view aerial oblique photos of the French coastline and I have used this on a several occasions to help pin down a location on the Channel Coast. One site is here:
http://www.francecoastline.com/

It takes a bit of time, but it isn't impossible.

I'm sure there is another site which will take you on a slow virtual "flight" along the coastline where it is much easier to identify places, although invariably the photos we are interested in are at ground level, so one has to imagine what those scenes look like from the air. However, that isn't impossible where there are distinctive features.

Perhaps worth a try?

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Photos shot at low tide ?

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Andy/"udf_00"

Yes, this is at low tide along the French coast.

Andy: this is an excellent research tool for landmarks and terrain along the French coast of which I wasn't previously aware. I quickly spotted about three areas along the French coast at Boulogne that look promising. I think we have enough photos to nail the location on this one. However, I don't have the time right now to study this closely. If someone with eagle-eyes has the time to research this and compare the photos with the coastline I'd be happy to send them my copy to supplement what Dave has posted. That should provide enough evidence to nail this one to Boulogne. Contact me by PM if you want to help.

Regards,

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Hello,

Would someone check their copy of Chorley's Bomber Command losses and provide me with the info on the 142 SQ Battle loss in the Boulogne area on either 22 or 23 Aug 1940? My copy is out of the office for some transcription work and Peter is on holiday. Would appreciate the info on the loss that we've been discussing here.

Regards,

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

From BC Losses by Chorley.

22-23 Aug
142sdn L5503 Op: Boulogne QT
Mid Taylor RN pow
P/O A G Middleton pow
Sgt L M Lowry +
T/O 1825 Eastchurch to attack E-boats at Boulogne. Sgt L M Lowry has no known grave, while his fellow crew were reported prisoner.

L5582 Op: Boulogne QT
Sgt E A Pearce +
Sgt T S Duncan +
Sgt G Thompson pow
T/O 1825 Eastchuch. Presumed down in sea. Sgt Thompson survived to become prisoner, but the names of Sgt Pearce and Sgt Duncan are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.

Dave

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Dave,

Thanks. That's just what I needed.

Regards,

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Hello,

Does anyone have any information on the two Battle/crew losses above that would allow us to put an ID to the plane in the photos under discussion. The most likely candidate would seem to be L5503, since two of the crewmen survived. The death of the radio operator/gunner might be consistent with the rear of the fuselage being torn away. Not clear if this plane actually landed on the beach or was washed ashore by the tide after ditching off the coast.

Any further info out there?

Regards,

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Hello,

Have just turned up two photos of 142 SQ Battle L5323 obviously down during the WC of 1940 with a grave next to it. I don't find this on my index of 142 SQ a/c. Can anybody ID this one?

Thanx,

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

The only photo of a 142 sdn Battle with a grave, I have seen Q-QT in BofF now and then page 450. I have a photo of this aircraft which you can see the serial no L5226. Most 142sdn Battle's you cant read the serial numbers, I dont know if they were painted out?

Dave

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Hello,

After looking at our updated EOE Loss List for 142 SQ during the WC, there are several losses in June, 1940, that don't have SNs associated with them, so there are a number of possibilities. I've looked at this photo again, and it shows only a badly stressed rear fuselage either wrenched or burned off the plane. I was confused with another photo, and this one does not have a grave next to it, just some German soldiers around this broken off tail. The SN, L5323, is very clear.

Regards,

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Perhaps I can help tidy up a couple of points.

Regarding QT-H, note following comments in 142 ORB

ORB - May 12, more enemy raids during day. A single aircraft flying approximately 1,000ft dropped a stick of 20kg bombs damaging road surface and wrecking K9259 of A Flight which was in its standing

ORB – May 16 Two a/c were left unserviceable in their standings, one in “A” Flight, K9259 (which had received a direct hit during the enemy bombing raid on 12.5.40) and one in “B” Flight L5880.

I am sure L5880 is a typo for L5440. On balance I would take L5440 of the two options. I am not able to comment fully on the QT-H described as belly landed – as I don’t have the photo you are using - but a close comparison of skin damage near the starboard plane code might show the damage as identical to the QT-H in standings. This would support the plane having been pulled forward from its standings by the Germans prior to salvage.

QT-F I have as P5238; AASF 16 May 40; 142 Squ 18 May 40 4RSU 21 May, 21AD 11 June, hence the unpainted codes as with Sqn one day.

Hope that is useful

Kind regards

Iain

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Iain,

Thanks for your most useful comments on this thread and on the one regarding 103 SQ. We have approximately 1000 Battle photos in our EOE data base, the vast majority being crashes and crash-landings during the WC, and we're trying, with a lot of help, to sort this all out.

After reviewing our 30 or so photos of QToH destroyed in its stand, it is obvious after examining the photos that this would be K9259. There is a small bomb crater in the dirt just behind the starboard wing root, which has sprayed dirt and debris all over that wing. The Plexiglas is also pretty much blown out of the cockpit panels. There is shrapnel damage to the fuselage skin, and the undercarriage has been blown off. The photos of the plane out in the clear, appear to me to be the same a/c having been towed away from the stand, so they are very likely the same a/c. With this ID, I think that it clears up these two on the initial list that I posted.

Many photos seem to confirm that QToL probably had no SN painted on it. This is based on good photos of both sides of the rear fuselage and the rudder area. The other QToL I'm almost certain was one of the two that went down on a raid in the Boulogne area on Aug. 22, 1940.

I'll address your comments about QToF in a separate post after I've had a chance to study this more, and compare notes with Peter Cornwell.

Regards,

Re: Looking ID of these photos of downed 142 SQ Battles during the WC
 

Hello,

I thought that I'd bring you up to date on our EOE team's conclusions about some of the mystery 142 SQ Fairey Battle photos listed at the beginning of this post:

1) "Battle L5443. Belly-landed details not recorded. Aircraft QT*B a write-off. (Photo)." This is the a second a/c with this code, the first one being a FL on 10.05.40, retrieved, and later abandoned. The second one Peter Cornwell has now accepted as being one of the two Battles FL on May 22, 1940, in the Paris area:

"22 May 1940:
Battle. Forced-landed outside Paris in bad weather following attack on enemy tank between Amiens and Abbeville 5.30 a.m. Flying Officer A. D. Gosman, Sergeant Pollock, and LAC Gaston all unhurt – returned by rail next day. Aircraft abandoned.

Battle. Lost bearings and forced-landed south of Paris during sortie to attack targets near Florenville 10.50 p.m. Pilot Officer Edwards, Sergeant Green, and LAC Welch all unhurt – returned by rail next day. Aircraft abandoned.

One of these aircraft is believed to have been L5443 QT*B recovered by No.6 Repair & Salvage Unit."

Regarding this one, can anybody help us assess which one of these two was QToB, L5443? Does anyone know of any photos that might be the "other" 142 SQ Battle down that day?

Also, I earlier asked about a photo of QTo? L5323, with the rear fuselage blown off and a crowd of German soldiers around it. Based upon assignment dates for this SN, this almost has to be one of the 4 unknown SN/Coded Battles lost on June 13, 1940 attacking German columns, or missing from a night attack. Can anyone associate this a/c with any of these four incidents, or provide a/c codes, SN or other photo sources for any of these four Battle losses?

"13 June 1940:
Battle. Failed to return from night attack on Gisors and crashed near Les-Corvées-les-Yys, south-west of Chartres, early a.m. Flight Lieutenant A. D. J. Martin, Sergeant E. F. W. Curtis, and Sergeant G. H. Kettlewell killed. Aircraft a write-off.

Battle. Shot down by fighters east of Evreux during attack on enemy columns between Pacy and Vernon; crash-landed with port fuel tank in flames. Possibly that claimed by Lt Sprick of 8./JG26 near Paris 11.39 a.m. Flight Lieutenant J. M. Hewson unhurt. LAC R. S. Utteridge wounded in head admitted to hospital in Chartres where later captured. Sergeant R. V. T. Kitto baled out unhurt, reached England via St Malo. Aircraft a write-off.

Battle. Shot down by fighters east of Evreux during attack on enemy columns between Pacy and Vernon and possibly that claimed by Lt Ebeling of 8./JG26 near Paris 11.40 a.m. Pilot Officer K. R. Sutton believed unhurt. Sergeant Rudd wounded in head and Sergeant B. J. Rowe wounded left leg, both admitted to hospital. Aircraft a write-off.

Battle. Failed to return from attack on armoured columns near Montmirail and believed that claimed by Lt Strobl of 5./JG27 over Romilly-sur-Seine 5.30 p.m. Sergeant D. J. Holliday, Sergeant D. A. Whiting, and AC T. Greenall captured. Aircraft a write-off."

We've now accepted that QToF ("F" code only on starboard side) as being L5436 abandoned at the No.21 Air Deport at Château Bougon, Nantes, France, on 15 June 1940. We have about 6 photos of this a/c there, but the SN is still pretty fuzzy and I'd certainly appreciate a clear copy of the SN on this one if someone has one.

There are still a number of tightly stacked Battle fuselages side-by-side at one place at that depot, and we'd still appreciate photos showing the planes abandoned there in hopes of clarifying some of the plane codes/SN abandoned there.

And finally for now, I'm seeking photos or a/c code info on these 142 SQ Battles lost on 11 and 15 June 1940 respectively.

"11 June 1940: Battle L5200. Shot down by AA south of Rouen during attack on pontoon bridges over the Seine at Le Manoir. Sergeant J. N. Fraser and Sergeant J. H. Ledson killed. Pilot Officer B. W. Peryman captured. Aircraft a write-off."

and:

"15 June 1940: Battle L5455. Belly-landed at Morannes, north of Angers, due to engine failure en-route to England 12.00 p.m. Pilot Officer M.J.A. Kirdy and two crew unhurt. Aircraft abandoned.
This machine was later destroyed by occupying German forces due to the presence of bombs but not before the Aircraft Maintenance Log confirming serial number L5455 had been liberated from the cockpit, along with other documents, by local youth Andre Constantin who passed them all to the British Embassy in Paris in 1944."

Can anybody be of further assistance?

Regards,