Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

Hello,

Recently on eBay, a photo of Bf110C-2 W.Nr. 2083 2N+AN, sold to one of our EOE members. This a/c was probably not the a/c of the St.Kap., neither of whom from this period (circa 9.40), was known to have had a victory scoreboard totaling the seven tabs shown on the photo. This a/c his been published before, including with the pilot, on P. 40 of the Vasco/Cornwell book on the Bf110 during 1940. This plane code, 2N+AN, was reported lost on 25.08.40, with Ofw Manfred Dähne, but with a different W.Nr., 3532. This is almost certainly the replacement a/c for this one, and since Dähne was MIA, this couldn't have been him. One of our EOE members thinks that this was most likely the a/c of Herbert Kutscha. From the photo of this plane with the pilot, can anyone confirm the ID as Kutscha, who was a Knight's Cross winner, whose photo appears on P. 152 of Obermaier's RKT book (1966 edition). Because of the differences in the clothing, flight helmut, etc., I can't decide if they are the same person or not. Here is where some facial recognition software could really help the case. Perhaps some of you have other info/photos of this pilot or a/c that would help us nail this one. Who can help?

Regards,

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

Larry:

Bf110C-2, 3532, 2N+AN, was used by Fw Manfred Dähne, and lost 25.08.1940 (as Yopu wrote before)

Bf110C-2, 2083, 2N+AN, was used (I beleive) by Fw, Kutscha, and damaged (and written out of unit) in Accident during landing, Sola airfield on 10.01.1941. 7 victory bars on fin.

Bf110D-3, ????, 2N+AN (later 2N+AS, and more later S9+AN), pilot unknown (pictured in J.Vasco's book Zerstorer Vol.II p.103), was lost around summer 1941 on Eastern Front.

Bf110E-2, 4105, S9+AN, was lost on 27.07.1941 with Uffz. Georg Hemmetter as a pilot.

Bf110E-2, 4499, S9+AN, was lost on 14.09.1941 with Uffz. Gerhard Schilcher as a pilot.

Bf110E-1, ????, was used by Fw. Kutscha, and leaved on Orel a/f in winter 1941-42 (17 victory marks on fin).

Next a/c of Fw, Kutscha was Bf110E, S9+NN, with at least 22 victory bars. He used it during whole 1942.

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

Evgeny,

Is there a photo of W.Nr. 2083 showing 7 victory tabs on the tail from the accident at Sola on 10.01.41? Can you cite a source for this?

Regards,

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

Larry:

No, I have only loss record with this W.Nr. III./ZG76 lost this a/c on that date. No crew info, no code info :( Just:

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

Hi

Simple answer is nobody. The Micro Films for 8./ZG76 are neatly typed out, and very legible, yet nobody with this staffel had achieved seven kills by September 1940!

Regards

Johannes

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

Evgeny,
When II./ZG 1 became III./ZG 76 they did not change the Staffel letter on the fuselage of their aircraft.
Do you have definite proof of the direct link between an aircraft coded 2N+AN later being coded S9+AN?

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

The only thing I can add to this conversation is that WNr. 2803 had a history - I have to two loss reports for this machine:

Bf 110C-1, 2803, n.n., , , V.(Z), LG 1, , , , , 04-Sep-40, Notlandung due to Luftkampf with enemy fighters., , Kanal, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #2)-Vol.3; Taghon, LG 1, I, p.429; Mason, p.349, , bei Abbeville, 50%, F, , ,
Bf 110C-1, 2803, n.n., , , IV., NJG 6, , , , , 15-Feb-44, Damaged, cause unknown., , Nachtjagd Balkans, Roba/Craciunoiu, La Chasse de Nuit Germano-Roumaine, p.93, , Fl.Pl. Zilistea, 20%, F, , ,

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

Johannes,

where did you find claim list of III./ZG76?

Regards

Robert

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

Jim,
Wrong W. Nr. ...

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

John:

Looking on photos of III./ZG76 aircrafts in spring 1941 (may-april), I can say:

At least 7./ZG76 and 9./ZG76 changed their fourth character of code from M to R and from P to T.

Also, if we will look in III./ZG76 losslist, we will see:

8./ZG76 lost a/c with code 2N+GS, and 7./ZG76 lost 2N+DR and 2N+KR.

Then: ZerstorerStaffel./JG77 was formed from parts of 7./ZG76, and took some zerstorers from that Staffel. For some time, they kept its original code 2N+_R, but in early summer 1941 1st character was changed from "2" to "L", and "DaschhundStaffel" got its code LN+_R.

It seems, only Stab III./ZG76 kept its "C" charachter and didnt changed it to "D". I have two photos of same a/c - 2N+GC while with III./ZG76 in Norway and S9+GC while with II./SKG210 in USSR.

About 2N+AN - I have photo of D-3 2N+AN, and I may only suggest that it was (if not lost with code not listed) renamed in 2N+AS and later S9+AN. It was probably lost in early days of Barbarossa campaign, because next S9+AN was lost already in late july 1941.

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

John, you're right. How the heck did I do that?

Bf 110C-4, 2083, n.n., , III., III., ZG 76, , , , , 10-Jan-41, Bauchlandung due to tire damage., , Lfl.5/Norwegen, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4, , Stavenger, 30%, H, , ,

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

Hello all,

This proves that W.Nr.2083 was the successor a/c to the earlier 2N+AN. Now to confirm the pilot was that flew this a/c marked with 7 victory tabs @ 9.40 during the Battle of Britain. Any help there?

Regards,

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

Hi Larry

Tried to e.amil you ZG76 claims, but your e.mail address is unobtainable!

Regards

Johannes

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

Hi, all

Reverting to the original question - I believe I have a few photos of Kutscha in an album I obtained a few years back, and will check to see if I can positively ID him.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

http://zg48voss.narod.ru/images/phot...xp_kutscha.jpghttp://www.brooksart.com/Herbert%20Kutscha.jpg


Gentlmen: this are the only photos of Herbert I have. These were taken in 42-43, I beleive in 1940 (on photo in front of 2N+AN) he looks much younger :)

Jim: 2083 was C-2, not C-4.

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

Evgeny,

If I may explain.
The C-2 had the MG-FF 20 mm Kanonen fitted.
The C-4 had the MG-FF/M 20 mm Kanonen fitted.
The Petrick/Mankau table of W. Nr. in their book is taken from factory lists.
During the Battle of Britain, many 'C' variants were recorded in the loss/damage lists at unit level as 'C-4', but a check of the Petrick/Mankau list gives them as 'C-2'.
It is my view that during the production run of the C-2 (for which the factory held the paper records), the MG-FF/M became available, and so the MG-FF/M were fitted, and they were shipped out as 'C-4's.

Hence, the W. Nr. in the original records for 2083 shows 'C-2', but the damage report Jim has quoted shows 'C-4'.

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

Evgeny,
In 1940, everything shows that III./ZG 76 did not revert to the normal letters associated with III. Gruppe aircraft.

With regard to your last paragraph, what I am trying to say is that for research purposes, you should not make the 'leap of faith' in stating that a particular aircraft went through various code changes, unless you have the supporting evidence, i.e. a common W. Nr.. You cannot state wth certainty that 2N+AN in 1940 became S9+AN in 1941. Did those elements of III./ZG 76 that went to form II./SKG 210 take their aircraft with them? Or were they outfitted with new aircraft for the start of the Russian campaign. I don't have the answer to that one. Do you?

Re: Need help identifying pilot of 1940 Bf110 from 8./ZG76 with 7 victories
 

Yes, John, I havent an answer too. It was my only suggestion, thats all. Anyway, there were several S9+AN's before Kutscha got his S9+AN in late autumn 1941.

Agreed fully.