Need someone who knows the appearance of Amiens & St Omer France in 1940, especially the cathedrals in these two towns
 

Hello,

Members of the EOE WG (Working Group) have acquired a number of photos of a belly landed Do17P from 2.(F)/123, 4U+CK, which came down intact in a grain field on the outskirts of a large city with a distinctive cathedral (maybe two) in the background. Handwritten notes on the back of two of these photos say "bei Ameins,' and "bei St Omer." Both Amiens and St. Omer have large, distinctive cathedrals. I'm looking for someone who knows those places, preferably who lives there, to look at these photos and see if the distinctive town in the background can be identified and the crash location matched, which then will probably lead us to a confirmed identity for the incident.

Who can help? Contact me by PM for info on the photos, or contact me by direct email if we are already in touch.

Regards,

Re: Need someone who knows the appearance of Amiens & St Omer France in 1940, especially the cathedrals in these two towns
 

Why not try Google StreetView? You can get into the square right outside Amiens Cathedral and you can see the one at St. Omer from a nearby major road.

Re: Need someone who knows the appearance of Amiens & St Omer France in 1940, especially the cathedrals in these two towns
 

Larry,

This is an interesting site where you can find pictures of most churches in France:
http://clochers.org/

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: Need someone who knows the appearance of Amiens & St Omer France in 1940, especially the cathedrals in these two towns
 

Rudi,

Since I don't speak French, I could figure out how to use that site. However, here is a new photo up for auction that shows a major church and says that this is St Omer. The problem is that we have other photos of the same a/c that say Amiens. See what you think.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_2490wt_907

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_2661wt_907

There are at least three different churches in the photos of this a/c visible in the background, which should absolutely confirm whether this is St Omer or Amiens.

Regards,

Re: Need someone who knows the appearance of Amiens & St Omer France in 1940, especially the cathedrals in these two towns
 

well, since you asked, it's St. Omer IMHO. The cathedral in Amiens is much more elaborate than St Omer's, which strictly speaking is a church. Thing is St Omer and Amiens are separated by nearly 150 miles. Between them is Arras, which also has a very impressive beffroi - although I think you can rule that one out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:St...ale_032005.jpg

Re: Need someone who knows the appearance of Amiens & St Omer France in 1940, especially the cathedrals in these two towns
 

Larry,

As far as I'm concerned I also whoud say St Omer. If you scroll down to the bottom of this webppage, you can see a "skyline" of St-Omer. Some of the towers/domes are not visible in the Ebay pictures, but these could be destroyed in the fighting or build after the war.

http://www.cathedrale-saint-omer.org/

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: Need someone who knows the appearance of Amiens & St Omer France in 1940, especially the cathedrals in these two towns
 

Hi Larry,

I don't know if it is Saint-Omer, but at least it is not Amiens IMHO (backed by my girlfriend family, by the way :) ).

I agree with Rudi that the skyline of Saint-Omer and the pictures are fairly close.

The church on most of the pictures is not St-Omer cathedral, but the church on the center right of the skyline (the Chapelle de l'ancien collège des Jésuites)
http://clochers.org/Fichiers_HTML/Ac...eil_62765c.htm
.

Re: Need someone who knows the appearance of Amiens & St Omer France in 1940, especially the cathedrals in these two towns
 

Guys,

Thanks!
You've all nailed this. It is, without question, just outside St. Omer, France. Now to figure out what 2.(F)/123 Do17P came down there and when. This is almost certainly from the WC of May-June, 1940, I would think. Looks like all or most of the crew would have survived. Any opinions on that? This a/c is likely to be one of our color profile subjects for one of the two WC EOE project volumes.

Regards,

Re: Need someone who knows the appearance of Amiens & St Omer France in 1940, especially the cathedrals in these two towns
 

Hello,

Upon studying the location of St. Omer, it is only about 30 km inland from the coast, not far from the Pas de Calais. This could easily have been a recon plane returning damaged from a mission over England during the Battle of Britain. Need to expand the search for unit losses beyond the WC.

Regards,

Re: Need someone who knows the appearance of Amiens & St Omer France in 1940, especially the cathedrals in these two towns
 

Hi Larry, did you notice that on your set of pictures, the bomber nose is lying on the grass, while in the set on Ebay, there is a "earth road", just in front of it.

I don't know if this is because many vehicles came visiting the wreck.

The grass seems also higher to me.

From the churchs position, it seems to me that the bomber was south of the town, so he landed coming from the North.

Re: Need someone who knows the appearance of Amiens & St Omer France in 1940, especially the cathedrals in these two towns
 

Hi Laurent,

your observation is correct. I have account of this crew and they belly-landed just S of the city.

Regards

Robert

Re: Need someone who knows the appearance of Amiens & St Omer France in 1940, especially the cathedrals in these two towns
 

Hello,

Robert is correct. This is the incident on May 24, 1940, which we've now updated in our loss list to reflect what is now known from the photographs and the crew account, which Robert has translated for use in the EOE Project. It has now all come together. Thanks for the help. The handwritten caption of "bei Amiens" on the back of one of our photos was a red herring. It happens.

Regards,

Larry

Re: Need someone who knows the appearance of Amiens & St Omer France in 1940, especially the cathedrals in these two towns
 

Hello:
As the resolution to this, here is our Revised EOE Luft Loss DB record of this incident, which is a considerable update from Peter's previous info in TBoFr T&N:

"May 24, 1940: 2.(F)/123 Dornier Do17P-1. Crash-landed just south of St Omer, France, badly damaged by AA fire and Spitfires of No.74 Squadron during reconnaissance of shipping between Boulogne and Calais. Pursued inland under attack by F/L A.G. Malan, F/L W.P.F. Treacy, F/O H.M. Stephen, P/O P.J. Cobden, P/O The Hon D.H.T. Dowding, P/O B.V. Draper, P/O W.E.G. Measures, P/O Stevenson, and Sgt Mould at 10.25 a.m. FF Oberfw Otto Karg suffered splinter wounds in face, BF Fw Hans Behrens slightly wounded in foot – admitted to hospital in Mönchengladbach, observer unhurt. Aircraft 4U+CK 100% write-off. (Photos)

Thanks to the four members of the EOE Working Group (WG) who provided photos of this incident, plus those members of this board that have helped put this one to final rest. This is one of a great many updates, additions and revisions that have been made over Peter's previous publication on this subject.

Regards,