Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Bonjour

I wonder if someone could identify this RAF matricule No. 48949 shot down in an aircraft whith this No. "R263" or something : aircraft shot down on May 14th 1940 near Tournai Belgium

Source : local archive.

Thank you

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

On 14 May we have Hurricane P2635 of 79 Sqn lost east of Renaix.

However, the service number (matricule) of its pilot, P/O L L Appleton was 40497.

Could it be that fire/crash damage had made the P seem like an R, and perhaps the matricule was similary difficult to read?

Arnaud - I will try to look at your other query later.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Bonjour Andy,

This is a good possibility indeed. I will wait for a week any other possibilities given by readers.

I will keep you and readers in touch with my further investigations.

For the other case, it could be P/O Hallifax's Hurricane (May 15th 1940) No. N2422 of No. 3 Squadron : pilot baled out and was taken prisoner.

Thank you

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

According to the Online London Gazette the service number was issued to R K Ray.

However it was not in use in the 1940s.

P/O N D Hallifax was service number 33404

Regards
Ross

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

What Ross means when he says not in use in 1940's was that it was not allocated in 1940...

It was in London Gazette in 1942 when 562276 Richard Knox RAY was commisioned and allocated a new Service Number 48949

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Bonjour,

Thank you very much for giving the name of this Service Number, I have searched it for a long time without success. Thank you again…

Obviously this Service Number recorded in the local archive is wrong. I guess the person who wrote it down during the war had some difficulties to read it.

Andy gave a good match, but let’s wait for other possibilities. I do some further investigations.

Wait and see

See you later

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Lew Appleton is still missing, crashed most probably in the Lessines area.
The crashsite should be in a swampy land near/under an highway.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Bonjour ClinA-78,

Yes! I think there is in Lessines a little memorial on the bridge over that motorway, isn't it ?

Do you or does anyone know how people identify this Hurricane and pilot?

Bon vol à tous

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Hello Arnaud,

You are right. Don't know how rightly they identify him.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Dear ClinA-78,

I have found a witness for the Hurricane shot down at Lessines saying he saw in a lying helmet found on the ground "Allen" for, I suppose, F/O Allen, 39840, missing, 15/05/1940, in Hurricane No. P2701.

Could anybody explain why they identify this pilot as Appleton?
Could anybody add anything about F/O Allen loss?

Bon vol à tous

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Fg Off Allen is shown as having baled out at around 14.30hrs 10 miles NW of Gembloux - but I have not checked where Lessines is in relation to this position.

Originally, Allen was posted as missing on 15 May 1940 but returned to his unit the next day. As we now know, he was shot down and killed near Neuvilly on 18 May 1940.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Bonjour,

Thank you for information about F/O Allen. I have two questions:

1. Could you tell me if those documents about F/O Allen are serious? I confirmed again that I have found a direct witness who saw “Allen” written in the flying helmet found near the crash site at Lessines on May 14th 1940 with one part of his scalp still in it…
2. For Neuvilly: I have this information found in local French archive: “Neuvilly : aircraft shot down on May 18th 1940, one engine, light grey colour. No trace of any crew member, no document found also. It was written on the aircraft “Danger Compressed, P.3533”. With this description it is difficult to imagine that an airman was missing in this aircraft. Do you know how people identify here a missing pilot and identify this missing pilot as F/O Allen?

Yours sincerely

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

If the crash at Lessines was on 14 May 1940, and the pilot was killed, this cannot have been Fg Off Allen of 85 Squadron. Allen baled out safely 10 miles NW of Gembloux on 15 May 1940. He had returned to his squadron on 16 May and was shot down and killed between 0630 and 0700hrs on 18 May not far from Neuvilly.

However, Hurricane P3533 crashed at Fonds des Solesmes, Neuvilly, and was not the aircraft Allen was lost in - which was P2555. The pilot of P3533 was killed and remains unidentified.

Unfortunately, we do not even have a clue as to what squadron P3533 was on the strength of.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

What is the story about the memorial on the bridge at Lessines, Arnaud?

Does it not give any date or details, and when was it put up?

Oddly, of course, we do have an Allen killed on 14 May 1940 but this was a long distance away at Villers-Cernay. (I went to the crash site some years ago and there was a great deal of the aircraft still lying in the forest with the identification L1591 still in evidence when the wreckage was discovered.)

It seems to me that the witness may have misread Appleton for Allen, perhaps?

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Bonjour M. Andy Saunders,

First 85 Sqn is perhaps the worst squadron to study with 87 Sqn : This is just a general feeling…

For F/O Allen, we have:
1. Lessines : a British fighter shot down on May 14th 1940 : with the name “Allen” in the flying helmet.
2. This could not be Allen buried at Villers-Cernay as his aircraft and body was due identified without any difficulties (could you send me a photo of the wreckage by the way? I would be very thankful. This is for my book on Sedan…).
3. The war grave commission declared this pilot missing on May 15th 1940.
4. At Lessines, the memorial dedicated to Appleton is base without any evidence as the Hurricane is still buried very deep in the ground. If anybody could add anything on that subject, I would be very thankful.
5. O.R.B. declared F/O Allen missing on May 15th 1940 (over Belgium).
6. But O.R.B. declared missing a second time May 18th 1940.
So this is a nightmare! We have 3 information saying one thing (shot down 14th or 15th May) and the ORB giving another date (18th May). There are no details of patrols in May. In June, it is different. The mention saying F/O Allen was missing on May 18th is very strange: did the squadron receive that day the confirmation of this death on May 15th and get confused? If anybody has anything to add…

For P/O Appleton, we have:
1. A crash site near Tournai of a single engine aircraft with this number “R263”: pilot burnt and buried close. Then the grave simply disappeared: missing…
2. P/O Appleton was shot down with this Hurricane “P2635”
3. This pilot is missing indeed…
Those two numbers “P2635” and “R263” are quite similar. I wait for September to find pieces for identification of the type and the factory. If it matched with P2635, it would be a good match.

For Neuvilly:
1. This Hurricane is No. P3533.
2. There is no sign of the pilot in my report.
3. Date 18th may 1940
I have not identified the pilot of this Hurricane. But you say a missing pilot was found there. This is interesting. Could you give me the type of source and what does this source say exactly? For myself I have this only source I gave you in my last message. That is all…

Voilà… Let’s hope some people will add some more useful information…

On avance petit à petit, c'est le principal...

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Arnaud

I cannot really comment on the Lessines or Tournai crashes as I have no further details.

I will try to find the photos taken at the (other) Allen crash site in Villers-Cernay but I do know that a British team (some years before my vist) removed major portions of the wreckage to the UK. I am not sure who this was, but I have seen photos of it on the internet. I must try to find where.

As to Fg Off Derek Allen, he was certainly shot down and baled out 10 miles NW of Gembloux on 15 May 1940.

He was then shot down and killed (missing) between 0630 and 0700 hours on 18 May in Hurricane P2555. I think I will shortly be able to tell you a little more about his "missing" status.

As to the Neuvilly crash, this was certainly P3533 and its pilot was killed in the incident. His remains were discovered in 2007 and are due to shortly be buried as an Unknown RAF Airman. Excavation there in 2007 confirmed the aircraft to be P3533 and so this substantiates the report you have.

If your local reports confirm 18 May 1940 as the crash date (also established in 1945/6 by MREU from local information) then the puzzle remains; who was the pilot of P3533?

I am inclined to think he is a casualty already buried elsewhere as an identified airman and that the 2007 discovery may well be partial remains of that same man. But.....

Unfortunately, we cannot link P3533 to any squadron and the known pilot casualties that day are limited - thus increasing the puzzle over who he might be.

I believe that the MOD here may well be very interested to see or have access to the official local reports you quote in order to assist them in any further enquiries they may wish to conduct into the identity of the mystery pilot from P3533.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Sorry to add confusion to this mystery but, according to this Royal Air Forces Association trubute:

"Throughout 1940's long hot summer 32 Squadron was kept busy & Bernard {Henson} was forced to land on two occasions, on 15th August; whilst engaged over Selsey Bill at 18.00 Hours, his Hurricane [P3533[GZ-V] was damaged by enemy fire & Bernard had to land at Tangmere, he was unhurt & the aircraft repairable."

http://www.rememberahero.org.uk/find.asp?tribute=26

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

There is no evidence that P3533 was ever on 32 Squadron.

The AM Form 78 gives:

10 MU 26/4/40
HQ CFF 17/5/40
SOC May 40

I can also confirm that wreckage of P3533, with the serial number established, has been discovered at Neuvilly in France. This in addition to confirmation of that number by local French records as provided by Arnaud.

I would further add that the Air Britain register stating that P3533 was lost in France with 46 Squadron (!!) is a complete red herring. Neither is there any evidence that P3533 was ever allocated, at any time, to 46 Squadron.

I would suggest the aeroplane Henson was flying on 15 August 1940 was P3522.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Someone should tell the Royal Air Forces Association! I love typos, they send you in circles!

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

32 Sqn Orb confirms P3522 (Bullet through Crankcase)

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

I have noted during my research using the AM Form 78, that some information is not forthcoming. The Number of Tomahawks and Kittyhawks that have no data on the cards IRT the units that the aircraft were assigned to would be suprising to most.

Whilst I acknowledge that most of these aircraft flew in the Middle East even some of the Home based aircraft have situations where they were assigned to a Sqdn, is shown in the ORB and in Logbooks as being on strength at that unit, but the AM Form 78 mentions none of it....could P3533 be similar??

Thoughts?

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

I think it is the case that many Hurricanes lost in France went through the 'system' so quickly that they just ended up being sent from an MU to the CFF pool and, thereafter, the recipient squadron was not reported back and thus it is not noted on the AM 78. To add to the paucity of information, those aircraft were very often lost in France without those responsible for keeping the records back at Air Ministry having the slighest idea when or with what squadron. Thus it is the case that many AM 78s for Hurricanes left behind in France are simply recorded as "Lost in France 5/40". Add to all of this the confusion of the situation on the continent, and the not infrequent orders to burn all paperwork and move out, and one can understand why we dont get a very clear picture of many individual aircraft histories. Often, the ORBs are not much help either. At least, all of the foregoing is my view of how things probably were.

In the case of P3533 it was allocated to CFF on 17 May and presumably delivered to an unknown squadron later that day as it was then lost with an (as yet) unknown squadron on 18 May. All that, of course, is supposing that the sparse details on AM 78 for P3533 are actually accurate!

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Bonjour,

Here is the document I have mentioned previously. If it could help authorities to identify this pilot killed in Neuvilly...

Bon vol

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Thank you, Arnaud!

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Andy, Arnaud,

Very interesting thread this one.
Still I am on some details now even more confused.

The serial of F/O Derek Allen was so far given by Cull (12 Days in May) and Peter Cornwell (TBoFTaN) as P2701. Andy now gives P2555. Where do you base this on?

Then the P3533 at Neuvilly.
The documents provided by Arnaud seem to confirm quite firmly the code, location and date. The challenge is then to match this wreck with a name and squadron.

If I go through my list there is effectively only one a/c that was shot down, crashed at an unknown location and where the pilot went missing on May 18. F/O Derek Allen!

The others are for completeness;
56/B Sqn N2439 F/O Rose at Brebieres
56/B Sqn N2430 F/Lt Soden at Briache-St-Vaast
111/B sqn L2501 F/Lt Darwood at Mons
229/B Sqn L1802 P/O Dillon at Mons
607 Sqn P2536 F/O Weatherill at Seranvillers

All these 5 seem to be well confirmed in terms of a/c serial and location, which then only leaves Allen as the possible candidate ?!
I do have the location of the fight of No 85 Sqn in which Alan was lost as over Le Cateau, which is a good match with Neuvilly, just a few miles north.

But then the implication is that there is a third possible a/c serial for Allen's aircraft: P2701 or P2555 or P3533.

Regards, Pieter

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

The RAF casualty file for Fg Off Derek Allen DFC confirms he was lost in P2555.

I do not know the source for P2701.

As yet we have not identified who the pilot of P3533 might have been. If the local information provided post-war to the MREU is correct, and if the date information in the records posted by Arnaud is correct, then we clearly have a problem in coming up with a possible candidate for the Neuvilly P3533 Hurricane. We know that it is not Allen, and we know that he was lost in P2555. We can also confirm that the Hurricane at Neuvilly was certainly P3533 as Arnaud's records indicate. This was established by a discovery at the crash site in 2007. (see image)

I hope shortly to be in a position to give more news about the burial place of Fg Off Allen DFC and have been speaking on the telephone this evening with his brother.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

I believe that the original published source for P2701 being ALLEN's aircraft on 18 May 1940 is Twelve Days In May (1995) co-authored by Brian Cull, Bruce Lander, and the late Heinrich Weiss. Unfortunately, this erroneous information was repeated by Norman Franks in his RAF Fighter Command Losses (1997) and, regretably, both sources then accepted by myself for The Battle of France Then & Now (2007). This is unfortunate as despite my efforts to weed out incorrect details from previous accounts James Halley's RAF Aircraft P1000-P9999 (1978) clearly records P2701 as a No.85 Squadron aircraft shot down over Belgium on 11 May 1940. Mea Culpa.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Peter

I think that we all appreciate the dreadful muddle that one inevitably encounters in dealing with casualties of this period. Going with the best information available is often the only available option. In this case, though, you played a role in the road to solving the puzzle and were part of the team that identified the Neuvilly crash as P3533. This ultimately has led to the identification of Allen's grave and clarification of the Hurricane he was lost in; P2555.

It does of course open up another question. What Hurricane was Sgt H N Howes flying when shot down on 20 May? We now know that it apparently cannot have been P2555.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Andy,

Amen to that. God it was cold on that blasted heath. I only avoided hypothermia by imbibing copious draughts of Cognac courtesy the landowner during our post-dig 'wash-up'. I also recall breaking my shovel in an uncharacteristic display of enthusiasm. And what a pity that the impromptu salute by the French AF arrived a couple of minutes late for the minutes silence we held around the open hole.

As you rightly point out, the 'house of cards' that is No.85 Squadron serials in May 1940 begins to topple - only now kept aloft by the power of a fertile imagination. But, once again, P2555 for HOWES' aircraft on 20 May 1940 came from Twelve Days In May by Cull/Lander/Weiss which, in the absence of information to the contrary, was repeated by me in BoFrT&N. On this occasion, however, Norman Franks' can be considered blameless as he fails to include any mention of the loss of HOWES’ aircraft on that day. All of which said, I am mindful that the MoD must be correct in assigning P2555 to ALLEN ?

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Dear Andy and Peter,

Don’t be too certain about the serial number of F/O Allen 85 Squadron because I am not really certain he was missing on May 18th 1940. I wait for Andy's answer about his missing state that day...

I have received a letter from R.A.F. Historical Branch saying that F/O Allen was missing near Gembloux on May 15th 1940 on Hurricane No. P2701 (source : accident card). I could confirm that date for evidence by looking for again this letter stored somewhere in my archive ...

I haven’t received any information concerning his death on May 18th 1940. My general feeling is that I don’t really believe on his death on May 18th 1940, but I could be very wrong.

Is there an accident card for F/O Allen on May 18th 1940? I haven’t asked RAFHB at that time…


Bon vol

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Peter

I am waiting to hear the evidence on which the MOD hang their case that Allen was flying P2555 when lost on 18 May, but I must conclude (in the absence of any evidence to the contrary) that the MOD have deduced this serial number from the casualty report into Allen.

What has happened is that the Neuvilly case prompted the MOD to view this Neuvilly find as potentially Derek Allen. As a consequence of that it has seemingly resulted in an MOD/CWGC review of casualties buried as "unknown" who might be linked to Neuvilly. That, in turn, revealed the location of a grave elsewhere and which the MOD/CWGC discovered to be a body taken in 1940 from the wreck of Hurricane P2555. Until now there had been no linking of any specific casualty with P2555, but the MOD are now able to say that they have been able to confirm that upon reviewing their records they know that Allen was lost in P2555. This will result in a named headstone being provided to the grave in question.

Unfortunately, I cannot say at this stage exactly what documents the MOD have drawn upon. One has to just accept that they are 100% satisfied else they would not be notifying the family and instructing CWGC to replace the headstone.

Arnaud.

We know that Allen baled out on 15th and returned to 85 Sqn on 16th. I am satisfied from information from both ORB and the family that he survived the 15 May episode, returned to the squadron on 16 May and died between 0630 and 0700 on 18 May. However, another puzzle is that CWGC state his date of death to be 15 May 1940!

Also, would there be an "accident card" for the loss of P2701 on 15 May if this was a combat loss??

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Andy,

"Would there be an "accident card" for the loss of P2701 on 15 May if this was a combat loss??"

Yes ! according to R.A.F Historical Branch but archive are closed to public to 2040 so I don't know the exact name of those archive... I thought and I still believe the name "accident card" is correct.

This a/c number for Allen on May 18th 1940 as P2555 is probably based on the same archive. If yes it is very believable indeed... I trust those archive 100 % by experience.

Bon vol

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

"James Halley's RAF Aircraft P1000-P9999 (1978) clearly records P2701 as a No.85 Squadron aircraft shot down over Belgium on 11 May 1940"

According to ORB (admittedly written after the event)

Would this the aircraft Ft/Lt R.H.A Lee was flying on this date ?? He bailed out and returned to unit next day

ORB also states Allen shot down on 15th, Returned 16th and Lost on 18th


Seen N2388 'VY‑R' quoted as Lee's aircraft

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Arnaud

I think you are talking about the Casualty File. The Accident Cards are something entirely different and if there was not a casualty there would be no card anyway.... and if there was a casualty but the incident was a Flying Battle Occurrence there would be no accident card, either, as it is not an "accident".

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Andy,

Thank you for this precise information. So is there a "Casualty file" for pilot Allen missing on May 18th 1940?

It would be so easier for historians if all national archives would be opened to public which is obviously not the case... When they will be free to public, nobody will care about it. But that the point of the so well named "Secret Defence"... I just hope they won't destroy them as the R.A.F. did for thousands of log books.

We have the same problem in France, but in Great-Britain it is a lot more important...

Bon vol

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Yes, there would be a casualty file for Allen but all Cas.Files are currently "closed".

However, look elsewhere on this forum for discussion about release of Casualty Reports to TNA Kew under AIR 81 documents.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Andy,

Excuse me but I have some difficulties to understand what happened at Neuvilly. I need your help...

1. So there is an unknown pilot found at Neuvilly in a Hurricane No. P3533 in 2007. A pilot, or better to write half a pilot, was found here. Could you tell us in which cemetery this half unidentified body will be buried or is buried? So this pilot is unidentified and of course will receive an unmarked grave.

2. There is another Hurricane shot down at Neuvilly with another unidentified pilot. Where is buried this body? As I understand, the MOD now have received information that this particular body buried (where you know) came from Neuvilly in a Hurricane No. P2555. As they do have a report saying Allen was shot down on May 18th 1940 in Hurricane No. P2555, MOD have identified this unmarked grave as Allen. Then MOD asked to change the stone (where you know) for another one with Allen written on it.

If you can explain me the situation in a simple way, I would be very pleased.

If I understand well, but I need your explications, there are two Hurricane crash sites at Neuvilly
1. Hurricane No. P3533 : this one is confirmed by many documents.
2. Hurricane No. P2555 : for that one I have not one single information. Do you have any information of this second crash site at Neuvilly?

Bye

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Arnaud

Your summary is pretty much accurate.

However, the MOD have only confirmed to the family that Derek Allen was lost in P2555 on 18 May 1940 but do not say where.

I am in regular contact with the family and they are asking for further information, I believe, from the MOD. Once they have this information I should know and I will be in a position to inform you.

As to the unidentified man from P3533, I do not know yet which CWGC cemetery he will be buried in, but I will be told in due course.

Until certain matters are sorted out with the family with regards to the "unknown" grave, including the wording on the new headstone etc, I am not in a position to give you any more details at present.

As soon as I can say more, I will.

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Andy,

If I knew in which village is this unmarked grave soon becoming Allen's one, I would be perhaps in position to give some more details from French archives as the document about P3533...

At Neuvilly cemetery : P/O Clifford 26 Sqn 19/05/40 is buried : so three aircraft, 1 man killed and 2 men missing in this only village in two days...

Re: Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949
 

Yes, I have seen Clifford's grave in a WW1 cemetery but do not know his crash site.

I will PM you later in the week with details of the cemetery where Allen is buried.