Myriad of vague Mullers
 

Hi Guys

I have twenty Mullers(who have claimed victories)for whom I cannot give a forename! Some from the training units are probably to be linked to other well known Mullers:-

10./JG54 2 claims in July 1944 as a Fw.
4./JGr.West a B-24 on 31st December 1943 as a Fw
Stab.I./JG51 Il-2 on 14th October 1944 as a Major(should be easy, but just cannot find a forename)
1./JGr.Ost a B-17 on 29th May 1944 as a Uffz
Stab./JG27 a B-24 on 2nd July 1944 as a Uffz
5./Kdo.Herr a Lancaster on 31st July 1943 as a Uffz(should end up in JG300 units)
11./JG5 a Jak-9 on 26th September 1944 as a Uffz.
2./ZG1 a Sunderland on 16th September 1943 as a Lt.
Stab./JG51 nine Russian aircraft in March 1943 as a Oblt.
1./JG53 and 3./JG53 three Western claims from 25th March 1944 until 25th December 1944 as an Uffz and later Obfhr.
7./JG11 a P-47 on 15th March 1944 as a Fw.
1./JG11 a Blenheim on 8th March 1944 as a Uffz.
9./JG2 2 Western aircraft in the Summer on 1944 as a Uffz.
Stab.I./JG301 a Lancaster on 15th March 1944 as a Uffz.
3./JG88 to Spanish aircraft in January 1939 as a Ofw.
10./JG300 a Mosquito on 21st August 1944 as a Ofw.
9./JG301 a B-24 on 26th November 1944 as a Fw.
5./JG54 2 Russian aircraft in the Autumn of 1944 as a Uffz.
2./AG.Gr.OG.d.L a MiG-3 on 24th October 1942 as a Ogefr.
1(F)./AG122 a MiG-3 on 19th September 1941 as a Fw.

Grateful isf anybody can help clear some of these up.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Myriad of vague Mullers
 

Hello,
The one in the 3.J/88 is Alfred Müller; later in 1./JG53

Re: Myriad of vague Mullers
 

Hallo Fran

Many thanks for that.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Myriad of vague Mullers
 

Dear Johannes,

with respect to the Stab/JG 51 candidate who as you say claimed nine Russian a/c in March 1943 as a Oberleutnant I have my problems because as far as I know Stab/JG 51 filed no claims at all in March 1943. Said pilot did not belong to Stabsstaffel/JG 51 either since there was no Müller who filed any claims araound that time nor was there in I. or III./JG 51. I still have to check IV. Gruppe to rule that one out as well.

Perhaps you can give me the details of the nine claims in question - on or off board -so that we can approach the subject from that angle.

Regards

Jochen Prien

Re: Myriad of vague Mullers
 

Cannot check this :

An Oblt. August Müller of Stabsstaffel/JG 51 in
http://www.cieldegloire.com/jg_051d.php#victoires1943

But I wonder about a Fw. August Müller of 8./JG 51 in
http://www.cieldegloire.com/jg_051i.php

Re: Myriad of vague Mullers
 

There was a Hermann Müller with 14/KG 40 then 2/ZG 1 (but not until Oct 43) but I do not have him as being the sole pilot who got the 461 Sqn Sunderland on 16 Sep 43 as 6 ac were involved

Re: Myriad of vague Mullers
 

I suggest that it's Oblt Albert Walter of StabStaffel JG51. Another name misread in the hand written files. These 9 with the 26 listed add up to the 35 claims that he supposedly had.

Regards,

Craig...

Re: Myriad of vague Mullers
 

Dear udf 00,

the Oblt. August Müller mentioned in the cieldegloire internet side is a mis-nomer and should in fact read Oblt. Albert Walter of Stabsstaffel/JG 51 who did file nine claims in March 1943.

The Uffz. August Müller of 8./JG 51 you mentioned further can also be ruled out, as he filed his first claim on May 6th, 1943, only.

So if Johannes got his Müller from the French internet side, this matter can be considered as soved.

Regards

Jochen

Re: Myriad of vague Mullers
 

Hi Jochen

Got my data from the micro films, but can find no lose for him anywhere, this is strange because he was so successful in such a short time, and for such a short time, I would have expected him to have ceased because of death/injuring or transfered....the latter now seems the most likely!

Dates(as sure you know)

4th March 1943 Il-2 0955 hrs
4th March 1943 Il-2 1000 hrs
4th March 1943 MiG-3 1600 hrs
4th March 1943 Il-2 1604 hrs
5th March 1943 MiG-3 0850 hrs
5th March 1943 MiG-3 0900 hrs, tief
7th March 1943 Il-2 1435 hrs
17th March 1943 La-5 1635 hrs
18th March 1943 MiG-3 1500 hrs, 2000 metres

As seven of these come from the micro film pertaining to the Stabststaffel of JG51 I assume it isn't St.I,St.II,St.II or St.IV./JG51. Always thought he must be one of the other Mullers spending a short time with the stab!
Also as you know the micro films are typed out for the seven mentioned, and only the two with altitudes are hand written. I'll look through the micro films again just to make sure I havn't made a simple mistake do to underexposure of films or something.


Regards

Johannes

Re: Myriad of vague Mullers
 

Dear Johannes,

the details for the claims match exactly with those filed by Oblt. Albert Walter so that this case is solved - no Müller.

Ragards

Jochen Prien

Re: Myriad of vague Mullers
 

Johannes,

I have among my notes that in Jochen Prien’s Book on II Gruppe JG27 the B-24 claim for Uffz Muller of Stab./JG 27 is actually to Uffz Hermann Muller of Stab II./JG27 as his 2nd claim. Maybe there is an error in with the Stab./JG 27 verse Stab II./JG27 on the files?

Also, in the book the first claim for Uffz Hermann Muller is not listed so he possibly gained that victory while at a training unit before his posting to JG27. Maybe it’s the B-17 claim in JGr Ost on 29 May 1944? Jochen may be able to clear this one up as well.


Regards,

Craig…

Re: Myriad of vague Mullers
 

Dear Jochen

You are correct, I checked my micro Films, as you know the handwriting is diabolocal and W's look like M's, and in this instance there is no umlaut for the U, it actually looks like Wallner(but the rank is wrong) or Waller, but guess it is Walter without a crossed T. My Excel file for JG51 had become corrupted which at a clance led me to believe it was from the earlier typed out micro film, but being post July 1942 I should have guessed that just couldn't be. I record this as his 13th-21st victories.
Could you possibly e.mail me direct please as I would like to clear up some problems with JG2 in Africa, and corruption of files!

Kind Regard and many thanks again.

Johannes

Re: Myriad of vague Mullers
 

Dear Chris

Thanks for the information, I have undated my file on him. Couldn't find a date of death within my ZG1 losses.

Regards

Johannes

Re: Myriad of vague Mullers
 

Just for thoughts:
1944-05-29, 1./JGr. Ost, FW 190A-6, 470426, 27 weiße, Bei Kulkau, Krs. Meseritz, Absturz um 13.30 Uhr nach Luftkampf. Bruch 99 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Müller-Berneck, Gerhard, verletzt
1944-11-26, 5./JG 301, FW 190A-9/R11, 202430, 4 weiße, Gronow, Absturz nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Fw Müller, Otto-Georg, verletzt
Fw Müller mit Fallschirm abgesprungen.

Matti

Re: Myriad of vague Mullers
 

Hi Matti

Guess the 1./JGr.Ost chap could have a shortened surname. With JG301, I have three Mullers claiming five aircraft on 26th November 1944! one of these being Hans Muller(ace) who got three! Overall I have eighty Mullers making claims over the war period, it's just a job tracing them from unit to unit and making sure two arn't the same guy, the training units being the worst.

Thanks for your help.

Kind Regards

Johannes