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Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Can you inform us about the location?
Regards, Leendert |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Quote:
Any other informations? |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Salerno,
43-15153 (at least, that's what I can make of it) appears on a 8th & 9th AF loss list with MIA 29 Aug 44 (!). Unit given is 436th TCG, as also said on another forum. I read that the main element of 436th TCG returned to Membury, England from Voltone on 23 Aug 1944, but 82nd TCS only on 30 Aug 44. C-47 therefore of 82nd TCS? Regards, Leendert |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Salerno/Leendert
If Air Britain's book about the DC-3/C-47 and its first 70 years are anything to go by it states: 43-15153 c/n 19619 delivered 11 Feb 1944, to 8th AF on 11 Mar 1944, to 9th AF 79TCS at an unknown date. Crashed 01 Aug 1944 into mountain near Montevergine, Italy. B Rgds Stig |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Thanks. The place is correct. About the date: From the book we read about this crash site we know that crash was 29 july 1944. Perhaps it was recordered 1 august when it was discovered from authorities. About 29 august perhaps someone do a mistake for 29 july.
Do you have some idea how I can know names of crew and of soldiers on this aircraft? Again thanks!! |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Friend of another forum identify another tool of photo 7: a military type cotter key/pin puller
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/422...rcoppiglie.jpg |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Well Salerno
Strangely enough there is no MACR for this crash at ArmyAirForces.com , so I cannot help you there. Perhaps someone else have an idea why not? B Rgds Stig |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
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Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Salerno,
A friendly person gave the following information: The following quotes come from 436th TCG microfilm (B0544) records of July/August 1944: 1) NARRATIVE: "July 31 was an unlucky day for the Group as one plane of the 79th T.C. Squadron crashed near Foggia killing nine of the eighteen negro passengers. The crew escaped with minor injuries". 2) CHRONOLOGY: "July 31 - A plane from the 79th T.C. Sq. crashed near Foggia at 1000 killing nine of the eighteen colored passengers. The crew and the other passengers escaped with minor injuries." 3) GROUP ENGINEERING REPORT: "August 1 - Aircraft No. 43-15153 crashed in the mountains of southern Italy near Montevergine Monastery. Nine passengers were killed." (I think this records their equipment loss, which is their main concern, not accident reporting) Unfortunately no names are provided. One problem: Foggia is far from Montevergine? But one similarity: both say nine victims... Regards, Leendert |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Quote:
Many thanks Leendert. The place where we find crash site is about 90 km from Foggia. Perhaps report you find is not precise. Perhaps the aircraft come from Foggia to go south of France so it need to go to west coast of Italy. The date of 31 july is that we also know from local historian book. Do you have some idea like we can find a report with names of soldiers? Any idea about this "negro" soldiers? Their Division? Again thanks. |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Been watching this thread with interest to see if the names of the dead men might be found.
The mention above of the men being 'negro' then suggests that we are probably not looking for combat soldiers, perhaps an engineering or other support unit since the 92nd Infantry Division was only entering the line at that stage. But I guess this makes it a little more likely that they were 92nd Inf Div. If up to nine men were killed, there is some chance that at least one or more still is buried in Italy, some of their family may have chosen to have them remain buried in Italy. With this in mind, ancestry.com allows us to look at the Italian burials for those died those dates: 31 July in Florence American Cemetery Only John Chioda Sgt 39th Engineer Combat Regiment 33271457 Fred A Hall Cpl 4064th Quarter Master Service Company 34744224 Rafael Y Mylly, F/O 522 FS/ 27 FG T-123202 Frank Nelson, PFC, 362 Inf Reg / 91 Inf Div 39704979 The NARA AAD enlistment records do show that Fred A Hall was a "Negro" enlistment. All the others were "white" enlistment. The 1st August includes these names Frank J. Bertino Pvt 362 Inf Reg / 91 Inf Div W John L. Carter 717 BS / 449 BG Assumed to be non-negro William A. Schreier PVC 362 Inf Reg / 91 Inf Div W Nolen C. Skipworth Pvt 435th AAA Btn No enlistment record found, but confirmed from rosters of the dead that he was White. Noel Sonnichsen 87th FS / 79th FG W Joseph O. Van Osdol PFC 362 Inf Reg / 91 Inf Div 37620533 W All the above are non-negro Not really anything conclusive there to be honest, the fact that you found infantry weapon parts at the scene, maybe this was a transport of 92nd Infantry Division soldiers on their way to the front. It is such a pity that the US does not have a proper listing of their war dead similar to the British CWGC. The US Roster of World War Two dead, also on ancestry.com do not include dates, not even a year of death. If we could determine that 92nd Inf Div troops were brought up to the front by aircraft it might be a lead. There will be 92nd Inf Div associations out there, they must have records. |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Many thanks for your interesting informations!
However, because they were dead in south Italy I think they were buried in Nettuno War Cemetery. Do you can search Nettuno cemetery with date 31 july or 1 august? Do you are able to contact 92 inf div Association? Many thanks again. |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
My posting above was the result of a full search of all cemeteries in Italy but I notice that I think it did not do all cemeteries, I will do the search again.
but can you please go back and delete the 'quote' of my post in your last post, there is no need for people to always use the quote function, you are replying to a message directly above your post, why waste space on the server, the forum owners probably have to pay for this webspace, lets not fill it up with pointless quotes from previous messages, simply say, 'regarding your post above..." I'll run the ancestry.com search again, I see more casualties in the other cemteries, don;t know whey they did not turn up. |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
OK. Many thanks!
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Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Trying again, the first database seesm to not have the Rome Cemetery casualties.
In Sicily and Romw Cemetery Clifford Bell 32328840 New York Private 324th Air Survey Squadron 31 Jul 1944 Buried DIED NON BATTLE AAD = White Richard O Gates Vermont First Lieutenant 725th Bomber Squadron 451st Bomber 31 Jul 1944 Missing Assumed to be non-negro Frank B Green 36871031 Michigan Private First Class 812th Engineers Battalion Aviation 31 Jul 1944 Buried DIED NON BATTLE Cannot find in AAD database Jerry C Roch 36566873 Michigan Staff Sergeant 513th Bomber Squadron 374th Bomber 31 Jul 1944 Buried FINDING OF DEATH Cannot find in AAD database Lawrence C Stankus 15078527 West Virginia Sergeant 551st Parachute Infantry Regiment 31 Jul 1944 Buried DIED NON BATTLE WWiimemorial.com says that Stankus was killed in an accidental shell explosion, plus he is a white soldier from his photo there. Thomas I Conboy California First Lieutenant 717th Bomber Squadron 449th Bomber 1 Aug 1944 Buried DIED NON BATTLE Raymond Dillard 34232729 Louisiana Private 190th Ordnance Ammunition Company Aviation 1 Aug 1944 Missing DIED NON BATTLE This solider is recorded as being negro in his enlistment record, but he is missing, not buried. Francis A Fredette Massachusetts Chaplain First Class United States Navy Reserve 1 Aug 1944 Buried Albert Hall 34203522 Alabama Private 1902nd Ordnance Ammunition Company 1 Aug 1944 Buried DIED NON BATTLE This airman was negro per enlistment records Owen Kohl California Master Sergeant 18th Squadron 66th Troop Carrier Group 1 Aug 1944 Buried DIED NON BATTLE So, still not very conclusive, the most hopefull of all above is Pvt Albert Hall but he is a day later than the crash date. I suggest you contact the www.abmc.gov people and ask them if their old record show a batch of burials around that date that would match up. It would have been 1948 or there abouts before these mens bodies were returned home for burial. |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Thanks. Please note that from book we have 9 men died in crash and 2 or 3 in next days.
I'm unable to contact organization you quote because of my poor english. Do you can contact? Again many thanks! |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
No problems I'll pop them on a message see what happens.
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Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
I also did a "quick" look on ABMC for casualties on 31 Jul 44 and just came to already mentioned Cpl. Fred A. Hall of the 4064th QM Service Company.
He was "black" according to his enlistment record. First elements of the 92nd Inf Div had landed at Naples only the day before the 31 July crash. I therefore think all victims were from non-combat support units already in Italy instead, like above QM Coy. Regards, Leendert |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Thanks. And if they are doing a fly from Naples to Foggia? The crash is just on these 2 towns.
Please note also that at least a man was in infantry and these men have weapons like BAR, Browning o.50 and others on aircraft. |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
well the ABMC were not the people to contact, got very impersonal messages back, basically the previous burials of men were undertaken by the Army Quartermaster Corps, they arranged the burials and repatriations to the US, the records of these early burials now reside in the US national Archives.
I believe that there are some folks I know with old burial registers, will check with them. |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
OK. Many thanks!
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Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
It appears that Pvt Frank B. Green (36871031) from Wayne County, Michigan, and listed above with DNB 31 Jul 44, was with 812th Engineer Aviation Battalion.
This unit is described as a "Negro organization". Together with Cpl Fred A. Hall a second possible victim? Regards, Leendert |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Thanks for you always precious informations!
We are planning to return on crash site this friday. We hope to find something, the best will be a soldier tag, that can permit us to identify someone of these soldiers. |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
I also contacted the USAF AFHSO and they were the source of Leendert's information above, from the 436th microfilm.
http://www.afhso.af.mil/ No harm to let us know when information has come from a public source so that we don't waste their time asking a second time! |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
OK. Many thanks!
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Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
I can suggest that you and a friend each request teh Indiviual Decease Persons files for
Cpl Fred A Hall Pvt Frank B Green 36871031 from teh US Army Human Resources Command email them at hrc.foia@conus.army.mil Ask them for a copy of the Individual Deceased Personnel Files (IDPF) for one of the men. There is no need to explain a long message, just say you wish to learn how this man died in Italy, your country. It will be many many weeks even months before you get any files but it might be the only chance. I beleive you will only get one file at a time so that is why I say to get a friend to ask for the second one. Give it a try. ###### I edited the email address for FOIA on thsi message for future references based on Leendert's message at http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=26306 The thread flow may not make sense but future readers can at least have the correct address ############ |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Many thanks. Do you can ask for me? I'm not fluently in english language and I fear to be misuderstood.
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Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
No, I'll send you the text of the message, in the past they woudl only give me 1 fiel for free, then charge up to 80 dollars for subsequent, hence, you ask and get one friend to ask for next file.
Send them this text with your name a postal address, to the email address I gave you above: Start message: Hello there, I would like to request from your office a copy of the individual Deceased Persons File for a wartime US Army Air Forces airman named Pvt Frank B Green 36871031 Branch of Service: U.S. Army Hometown: Wayne County, Michigan I would like to request this under the Freedom of Information rules related to these files. Thank you very much for your time Salerno1943 End of Email: Salerno, since we are trying to help, could you give us your first name at least so we can call you by your proper name. Make things easier. My name's Dennis, I realise I never said that myself either. |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Many thanks!!!
My first name is Matteo (english: Matthew). Again thanks! |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
I received this:
The following message to <foia.hrc@conus.army.mil> was undeliverable. The reason for the problem: 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.1.1 User unknown' Do you are sure about e-mail address? Thanks. |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Computers!!
Thats the email address I've tried before, teh ABMC gave me this two days ago for contacting them so if the emial address fails again just send a postal letter. Attn: Aaron Alton (FOIA), Department of the Army, Army Human Resources Command, Casualty and Mortuary Affairs Operations Center, Dept 450, 1600 Spearhead Division Avenue, Fort Knox, KY 40122-5405; email address HRC.FOIA@conus.army.mil ###### I edited the email address for FOIA on thsi message for future references based on Leendert's message at http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=26306 The thread flow may not make sense but future readers can at least have the correct address ############ |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Fail again. I'm writing a letter.
Thanks! |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
try the revised address leendert suggested, I've ammended my message above hrc.foia instead of foia.hrc
Also, is there any clues in the local town, village or regiion archives? Woudl the local police have recorded any names? Are tehre any elderly people you can talk to in the area? |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Thanks. Address appear to be correct.
We already contacted city hall archives but there are not informations because of war age. Some old people remember the crash but they gave us not exact informations about the place. Therefore we must to do 4 travels to this mountain befose we find exact place. Tomorrow we will return. We hope to be lucky........... |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Matteo... and All
I just got today my microfilm reader at home (ouff, i was searching one since a long time) and I am able to help you, giving the unit of the negro soldiers and the names of the crew. The first part is from the group diary (the same than before) and the second one from the squadron diary, which is more interesting. GROUP DIARY - AUGUST 1944 Group Engineering August 1: Aircraft N°43-15153 crashed in mountains of southern Italy near Montevergine Monastery. Nine passengers were killed. Historical events July 31 - A plane from the 79th T.C. Sq. crashed near Foggia at 1000 killing nine of the eighteen colored passengers. The crew and other passengers escaped with minor injuries. a plane from the 82nd T.C. Sq. flying in the same formation hit some trees, but pulled up and made a safe landing at a nearby airport. The plane was damaged, but no one was injured. Historical narrative July 31 was an unlucky day for the Group as one plane of the 79th T.C. Squadron crashed near Foggia killing nine of the eighteen negro passengers. The crew escaped with minor injuries. SQUADRON DIARY - AuGUST 1944 SECTION THREE : Narrative On the previous day, July 31, the squadron's first crack up in Italy occured when five ships were ferrying Negro soldiers to Foggia. Flying under a heavy cloud bank, one plane collided with a mountain. All of the crew-- pilot Lt. Howard B. Wank, co-pilot Lt. Marvin (NMI) Butz, crew chief Sgt. Raymond H. Kelley, radio operator S/Sgt. Charles T. Taylor-- escaped injury, but nine of the 16 passengers were killed.The plane was washed out, necessitating replacement by one of the plane left in England. SECTION FIVE : Operations report The missions first crack-up occured two days later, on the 31st. Five ships took off at 0800 to ferry Negro personnel of the 904th Security Battalion to Foggia. The formation was flying beneath a heavy cloud bank when a mountain suddenly appeared ahead, all the planes cleared the embankment but one--that flown by Lt. Howard B. Wank, whose ship crashed into the top of the mount, killing nine of the sixteen passengers. Wank and his crew -- co-pilot Lt. Marvin (NMI) Butz, crew chief S/Sgt. Raymond H. Kelley, radio operator S/Sgt. Charles T. Taylor-- escaped injury. The plane was washed out. PS : It seems that the 904th Base Security Battalion provided security for Rosignano airfiled and ground station. Hope this help |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Finally, a break through!
Thanks Patrick. ABMC have no burials for such a unit with 904 numbers. the unit was an Air Base Security battalion (ASB Btn) Searching internet there graves in the US ought to be marked with '904 AIR BASE SEC BN' but I'm not getting any returns to July Aug 1944. The modern day USAF Police might have some form of memorial, I'll see if we can track them down. This link here: mmiarchivist.pbworks.com/f/Household+Inventory.pdf has the unit flag in their archives, I'll contact them see if they have anything. Howard B Wank died way back in 1974 in his native Ohio. Marvin Butz may have died as late as 2007 and seems to have stayed in the airforce after the war, up to 1953 according to a newspaper article I found. http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/atl...6929&fhid=5442 Raymond H Kelley, i cannot be certain but a man of this name who was an air force veteran passed away in Florida in 2005. Can't determine Taylor just to the name being very common. There is a little history of the Air Base Sec Bn at this link: http://www.history.army.mil/books/ww.../chapter15.htm |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Good to hear that more information has come forward! Next step: names of the victims....
But for some general reading about (then called) negro airbase security battalions and wartime policy, this may be well worth reading: http://www.history.army.mil/books/ww.../chapter15.htm Regards, Leendert |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Oops, I now see that Dennis referred to the same. Still, a good read!
Leendert |
Re: From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?
Dear Patrick and All,
many, many thanks for all your precious informations!!! I'm just returned from high mountain of crash site with my friends. We spent a day to search it and we are not in good health for all hard work. However I'm glad to say we have a name: "James A. Wright". This name give you some idea? More news tomorrow or as soon is possible. Again many thanks!! |
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