JG5 on 26Apr42
 

I'm going through a Russian article on the verification of certain pilot scores of JG5. On the 26Apr42 from the 6. Staffel Lt. Friedrich Dahn claimed three Hurricanes and Unteroffizer Dietrich Weinitscke claimed one. In another instance 8. Staffel Unteroffizer Heinrich Bartels and Fw. Oskar Thimm claimed one each. The article I don't think used Priens JFV 9/III as Thimm was not listed. From Mombeek's books on JG5 does it list these battles. I'm thinking that the 6. was escorting bombers while the 8. was on a free hunt.

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

Nokose, please keep us appraised of the conclusions. I love when give us glimmers into those rarely evaluated Ostfront combats!

Rob Romero

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

Are you talking about the article by Aleksandr Mardanov on Rudolf Müller's claims?

Mardanov definitely have not used Prien's JFV, his main source was 'Eismeerjager' by Mombeek.

Soviet losses included 2 Hurricanes destroyed and 1 damaged. So, taking into account JFV data, the number of overclaims was even higher...

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

Yes, it's his article in Aviamaster but it is the second part of his article on JG5 "Eight Written. Two in Mind"(?). Looking at the way he wrote the events it appears that Dahn and Weinitscke engaged the the 4 Hurricanes of the 769 IAP and then the 768 IAP. So for four claimed Hurricanes they got 1 Hurricane from the 769 IAP (& damaging one) and damaged one Hurricane from the 768 IAP. But on looking at the claims by the timeline and location it appears that Bartels got the first Hurricane of the 2 GKAP SF and that Thimm's first kill was actually only a damaged Hurricane.

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

Hi.

Since virtually no controllable information on the VVS ever appear for serious evaluation these attempts to compare claims vs losses are at best futile.

Until the (now) Russian, ex-Soviet, archives are open for study these comparisons are and sadly will be a waste of time, and one will only have small parts of information of dubious quality and most probably, as we have seen earlier, with a rather heavy political twist to it, even 70 years on in time.

It is regrettable, and I hope that we will be able to use the archives as a real source in the future.

It is of course a very relevant question to what extent the records are influenced by politics or shear fear - the same question the students of the air war in the west constantly ask with regards to german records.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

These archives are open for study now.

Come and learn :)

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

Hi.

Good! Because the last report I got was that they had been gloser again...

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

On the raid on the Petsamo airfield by the 7 Pe-3 of the 95 IAP. All of the 5 claims match. On the 3 Hurricanes later claimed the author stated that they were in the same mission but there is no location. He indicates that no "Hurricanes" engaged in combat. In Priens JFV it doesn't give a time but the location is given as 1 to 2 km west of Murmansk. Maybe later in the day there was another mission?

Reference the archives, I have been informed that the navy VVS records are not in Moscow. Has the Russian citizenship still have anything to do with the research there still? Not that I can afford the trip.

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

Andreas,

AFAIK, Soviet loss records are open and, except for part of the records of the fronts involved in large-scale disasters in 1941-1942 (when part of the documents were lost), they seem to be more complete than German ones for the Eastern Front, a large part of which seem to have been lost (including many which were destroyed at the end of the war) or neglected in the second half of the war.

The main problems are that in order to access them, you have to go to Russia, that the procedures to access them are time-consuming (AFAIK, most of the records are not digitized), and, first of all, that, while many non-Russian historians can either speak English and/or German or get some help with those languages, quite few of them can access documents in Russian.

I am no specialist on Russian archive conservation and access, but I think this subject has been discussed on 12OCH by Russian researchers with experience about working on military archives in the past.

Kolya.

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

Does anyone have the correct name of Oblt "Alferbakha" lost on the 26 Apr42 on Ju 88A-4 WkNr. 1776 (4D+KH) of Erpr.St/KG30. Also the unit and pilot for reconnaissance Ju 88D-1 WkNr 1501 from the 124 Group(?) lost on the 26th.

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

Hi

Erpr.St./K.G.30:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=153285

1.(F)/124:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=153340

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

Thanks Andreas.

It seems that Erpr.St/KG30 Oblt Afferbach fell victim to Kapitan Georgiy Vasilevich Gromov of the 20 GIAP (flying a "Tomahawk" in the source I'm going through and in Bykov's book a "Kittyhawk"). The gunner of the Ju 88 put up a fight before dying as Gromov's aircraft recieved numerous hits and one in the cockpit. Nothing on the fate of the other two Ju 88's lost that day.

Also on the 27Apr42 seven "Hurricanes" of the 760 IAP engaged 4 Bf 109s from the 5./JG5. The 760 IAP lost 2 "Hurricanes" and 5./JG5 claimed 3. No mention of any damaged "Hurricanes".

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

I know this thread says the 26Apr42 but it seems like good vehicle to use for this information. On the 28Apr42 there was 8 Hurricanes of the 2 GKAP SF covering a naval landing. They encountered JG5 who were in superior numbers. The author of this article says that JG5 claimed 10 Hurricanes but in Prien's JFV 9/III has listed 13 confirmed and 1 unconfirmed. Lt Heinrich Ehrler (4.) one, Obfw Willi Pfraenger (4.) two, Uffz Rodolf Mueller (6.) four, Oblt Horst Carganico (6.) two, Oblt Hans Tetzner (6.) one & one uncofirmed, Uffz Werner Schumacher (7.) two. The losses of 2 GKAP SF were four Hurricanes shot down (with 4 KIA) and two Hurricanes shot down making emergency landings.

Kapt Aleksey Andreevich Shvedov and St. Lt. Sergey Georgievich Kurzenkov of 2 GKAP SF shot up a reconnaissance Ju-88 but didn't see it go down (thus not confirmed). Ju 88D-5 WkNr 430237 was listed as crashing in its territory. Is there a unit and pilot name for this Ju 88?

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

1942-04-28, 1.(F)/124, Ju 88D-5 Trop, 430237, G2+AH, Fl.Pl. Kirkenes, Bruchlandung infolge Bedienungsfehler. Bruch 95 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Tegtmeyer, Karl, verletzt
Beobachter Uffz Gerstner, Rolf, verletzt
Bordfunker Uffz Borowski, Siegmund, verletzt
Bordmechaniker Uffz Kraus, Leonhard, verletzt
Uffz Tegtmeyer im Lazarett am 1942-04-29 gestorben.

Matti

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

An interesting combination of reports. Just in case anyone doesn't know: "Bedienungsfehler" means pilot's error. This puts another small shadow on these Luftwaffe reports reliability.

Also the rest of this thread is very nice, thank you, guys!

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

Well the problem is that there could be more than one cause for a loss.

In this case the Ju 88 may have been damaged or not by the Soviet pilot but the German authorities still judged that the main cause of the crash was "crew error", meaning that the aircraft was able to return to base and land safely, but somebody screwed up something and he was written off.

And I think that a "Bedienungsfehler" means more than a loss cause, there probably was some kind of "punishment" or sanction for the pilot if he survives.

It is at least the case in WW2 French accidents reports, almost always finishing by telling who is judged responsible (or not) and what sanction they will receive. It's the same for the RAAF and RAF accident reports I saw.

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

... or the reliability of Soviet reports ... ;)

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

But in this case, Soviet did not claim this as a victory

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

29April42 over Cape Pikshuev region
O5:30-
The Hurricanes of the 78 IAP SF flying cover engage Bf 110 of the 10.(Z)/JG5.
St. Lt. Sergey Kurzenkov claims his 5th victory a Bf 110.
Serzh. Chepurnov (couldn't find his whole name) pursues the fleeing German fighters and shoots down a Bf 110. Both kills are confirmed by Soviet pilots and the ground PVO.

17:20-
Tomahawks of the 760 IAP engage Bf 110's.
St. Lt. Gorelyshev and St. Lt. Khlobystov (again couldn't find the whole names) made a group kill on a Bf 110.

Returning to Petsamo Platz
10,(Z)/JG5
Bf 110C-4 (3528) 50% damage (unk crew)
Bf 110E-2 (2547) LN+FR 60% damage (unk crew)

Re: JG5 on 26Apr42
 

Wrapping up the 29Apr42 in the Cape Pikshuev region.
I-153 of the 27 IAP SF to perform ground attack and the Hurricanes of the 78 IAP SF as escort. Attacked by Bf 109s of the II and III/JG5.

Soviets claimed to have shot down 6 Bf 109. Actually III/JG5 Bf 109E (3266) 25% damage.

Oblt Horst Carganico and Obgefr Hans Doebrich claimed one I-153 each.
Obfw Willi Pfraenger three I-153
Uffz Rudolf Mueller two Hurricanes and an I-153.
Actual Soviet losses:
I-153 27 IAP SF, Serzhant Nikolay Ivanovich Kozhevnikov (KIA)
I-153 27 IAP SF Lt. Ignatiev (WIA) (Don't have his full name)
I-153 27 IAP SF Lt. Ivan Timofeevich Afanasenkov (WIA)
Hurricane 78 IAP SF, St. Lt. Nikolaev (WIA; forced landed) (Don't have his full name)

Soviet AAA got the following:
I/KG30 (one survivor out of both crews)
Ju 88 (140210)
Ju 88 (3701)