ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Hello,

To what unit would a Do17P belong (Probably WC of 1940) with a Z5 code?

Regards,

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Hello Larry,

It could be a typo for 5Z , Wekusta 76, formed in december 1940 ?
Regards
Marc

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Marc,

Good suggestion, but I've gone back and reviewed the photos and the first letter is clearly "Z" and the second almost can only be a "5." The third code letter is a "B" so we have Z5+B? and the photos are of a crash supposed to be in France during the 1940 Blitzkrieg. One suggestion from one of our EOE members is that this is a "Flakkorps" a/c, although I'm not really familiar with such a unit. I don't find any listing for a "Z5" code in any of my standard references.

Regards,

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Hi Larry

Just another long shot, you are certain it is a war time photo and not a pre-war code 25+Bxx?

Cheers
Stig

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Stig and Marc,

Someone has communicated with me directly that the Do17P in question was coded Z5+BH (confirmed by photography). He also sent a photo of a Fi156 with the code Z5+FH clearly on it. Z5+BH was shot down during the Western Campaign of 1940, probably in France. The source thinks that this could be the "Aufkla.Staffel of Flakkorps I" because this unit lost at least two Do 17s with this code. Does anyone have any other evidence for this unit having such a code? What was "Flakkorps I," what did they do, and why did they need Do17Ps?

Regards,

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Rosch does list this unit on page 150, indicating it formed 12/39 and disbanded 7/40.


From Wikipedia:
The Flak Corps is a wartime organization, and constitutes an operational reserve of the commander in chief of the German Air Force. It combines great mobility with heavy fire power. It can be employed in conjunction with spearheads composed of armored and motorized forces, and with nonmotorized troops in forcing river crossings and attacking fortified positions. It can also be deployed as highly mobile artillery to support tank attacks
see also
http://www.ww2.dk/ground/hq/iflak.htm

Don

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Don,

Thanks. I checked Rosch and you're right, although there is almost no info about it, and no unit codes. What was a "Flakkorps" and what did they do? It appears that we may be in some pioneering ground here as far as identifying a new unit code is concerned. Needs further work to ID this code with this unit.

Regards,

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Hi, folks...

From the LEMB website on 07/07/2011, where Peter Evans has supplied some excellent e-bay listings...

These three link to a Do17 which clearly shows a 'Z5' code. Is this perchance the machine in question?

http://cgi.ebay.de/Orig-Foto-Flugzeu...-/140573668992

http://cgi.ebay.de/Orig-Foto-Flugzeu...-/130542391787

http://cgi.ebay.de/Orig-Foto-Flugzeu...-/140573669007

Regards,

Paul

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Paul,

This is the same a/c which prompted my query. We have another photo of this a/c in the EOE Photo DB with the last code letter, "H," clearly visible, giving us Z5+BH.

Regards,

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Hello,

In a direct email to me, Peter C. has provided his usual insightful comments on this matter, which I thought I would share with you all:

"Larry, Good progress in establishing Z5+ as the unit codes for this unit. The Flak were considered the elite of the Lw and great faith placed on them as a strategic element in the Wehrmacht as a whole. The Flak Korps were highly mobile AA units usually accompanying advance ground units to defend key positions from air attack but equally well applied as conventional artillery when the need arose. They had their own air-transport and air-liaison facilities rather than have to rely on the TGs etc. There was one other loss on 16 May 1940 but on balance the best match for your photos would seem to be this:

20 May 1940: Aufklärungsstaffel I Flakkorps Dornier Do17M-1. Lost during reconnaissance sortie, details not recorded. BO Lt
[ ] Engel and one other crewman believed captured wounded, another unhurt – all later released. Aircraft 100% write-off.

It looks like it suffered flak damage but some French fighters carried heavy weapons. And is that a nose band ?"

I should note that Peter C. misplaces the credit for this to me, when the credit should go to Robert, who frequently posts on this board and is one of our most productive EOE researchers. It is his research which suggests the "Z5" code for Aufklärungsstaffel I Flakkorps. I still don't consider this yet confirmed and I encourage anyone who has further photographic data or information that might connect the Z5 code to this unit to contribute to this discussion. I would also like to nail down the specific circumstances and location for this FL and the names of the other temporary PoW crewman.

Who can help further with this one?

Regards,

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Hello Larry,

These links might be of interest:

http://www.ww2.dk/ground/hq/iflak.htm

http://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/aufkl2flak.html

http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/p/16949

http://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/aufkl1flak.html

And:
In Dutch:
Division Aufklärungsstaffel
De divisie had een eigen bescheiden vliegende verkenningseenheid, bestaande uit kleine en grote verkenningstoestellen, die niet alleen luchtverkenning maar eveneens verbindingen moesten verzorgen. Uit Luftwaffe bronnen is enige duidelijkheid te verkrijgen over de globale samenstelling van de eenheid, die volgens verwijzingen in diverse bronnen gedurende de gevechtsdagen (vrijwel) geheel moet zijn uitgeschakeld.
De eenheid was in feite de Aufklärungsstaffel (Fernaufklärung) des II.Flakkorps, oorspronkelijk gestationeerd te Köln-Ostheim. Het was op 10 mei echter volledig gedetacheerd bij het Luftlandekorps en als zodanig in menige bron aangeduid als het Aufklärungsstaffel 7.FD, wat onjuist is, maar wel direct de link met Kurt Student zijn divisie legt. Commandant van het Staffel was Oberleutnant G. Langguth.
De eenheid bestond uit een Korpsführungskette met 6 Do-17M verkenners. Daarnaast was er de verkenningseenheid met 4 Do-17M en de verkennings/verbindingseenheid met 4 Hs-126B toestellen [67: pg 131]. Zo goed als zeker is dat tenminste een deel van de eenheid vanaf 10 mei vanaf Waalhaven begon te opereren. Foto's van een geparkeerde (beschadigde) Hs-126B op Waalhaven zijn overigens ook bekend.
Aan de divisie luchtmacht verbanden - los van de beide grote transportgroepen KGzbV1 en 2 - was nog een onbekend transportverband toegevoegd. Wellicht werd dat onder meer gevormd door de twee Ju-52 voor de verbindingsdienst. Er is geen enkele duidelijkheid te verkrijgen over dit onderdeel behalve dat het door Oberleutnant F. Schäfer werd gecommandeerd.
(source: http://www.zuidfront-holland1940.nl/...fliederung-7fd)



Best regards,
Rob

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Rob,

Thanks for your additional research. I'll be in touch directly about a translation of what appears to be an excellent Dutch entry. This might even be somehow related to the Do17 and Hs126 destroyed/damaged on Waalhaven AF during the beginning of the Meidagen, which is the subject of a separate post.

Thanks to lots of direct messages from EOE Project supporters, I've now located a photo of a second (different) Do17M? probably also FL during the Western Campaign, which is probably the second one mentioned by Peter C. in his email to me quoted earlier in this thread.

I've also located two photos of a Do17M-1 of this same unit with Z5 codes in the ECPA Collection from 1939-40, which we now have in the EOE DB (some 2200 images). These are ECPA images DAA 609 L14 and L15. These two show a crew about to depart on a mission saluting probably their StaKap. The aircraft appears to be Z5+BH or DH, with the B or D in a medium color (not white). Interestingly, these two film frames are on the same film roll as the well-known "Cafe Archibald" sequence of 3./JG2, from about April, 1940.

Despite the ample evidence for Do17M-1s and a Fi156 carrying this Z5 code during the spring of 1940, and at least two of the former being forced down in probably France, there is still no confirmed connection between this code and Aufklärungsstaffel I Flakkorps. The evidence mounts, but it is still only circumstantial. Who can provide this direct connection based on hard documentation?

Regards,

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Hi,

elements of I./JG2 were stationed at Frankfurt-Rebstock in early 1940. On the door of "Cafe Archibald" is inscription "Feldberg 1940" - a hill called Grosser Feldberg is a few kilometers NW of Frankfurt and Langendiebach is some 7-8 km E of Frankfurt. Same area and no problem to reach these locations on the very same day.

Regards

Robert

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Robert,

So another bit of circumstantial evidence that the "Z5" code could be connected to Aufklärungsstaffel I Flakkorps, which was based at Langendiebach during the correct period. Makes the case a little stronger.

Regards,

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Perhaps a long-shot, but do any carry this emblem:

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20100602100105

Don

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Don,

None of these aircraft show any insignia in the available photos.

Regards,

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Just so your aware chaps, Goran/F19Gladiator has posted another former eBay shot over on the LEMB that shows another Do17, this time with what appears to be coded Z5+D? Click here to see this image... :)

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Another update chaps... unearthed again by Goran/F19Gladiator from his archive of old eBay auction images, two Fi156's, one coded Z5+FH and another coded Z5+GH. Both can be viewed via the same link in my previous post :)

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Hello Peter,

Thanks Peter for also making this thread available on the LEMB Board, and to Goran for posting the photo of Z5+D? (probably Z5+DH, despite the color of the D). There are a lot of private exchanges going on between members of the EOE WG (Working Group) on this issue, and I want to keep the members of both TOCH and LEMB apprized of where this is going.

Rob van den Nieuwendijk made an excellent post on the TOCH thread from a Dutch website (in Dutch) on 09.07.11, and, on the theory that no good deed go unpunished, I asked him to do a full, nuanced translation of this, since it appears to have application to both my TOCH post on the identity of the "Z5" code and the question about the identity of the shot up Do17M or P, and a AufklSt 7 Fl Div Hs126 (4Q code), both badly damaged on or about 10.05.40 on the airfield at Waalhaven, Netherlands. Neither of these clearly written off planes apparently appear in the German QM loss records or the NVM system.

Here is Rob's translation, sent directly to my private email account:

"As promised the translation - made by myself not using google etc. in order to find all the nuances for you.

Division Aufklärungstaffel. The division had his own small flying reconn unit, which were small and larger reconn aircraft, which not only took care of the reconn, but also had to take care of the signals. From Luftwaffe sources we have been able to get some more background about the composition of this unit, which - according to several sources - was put out of action during the battle days. The unit was actually the Aufklärungsstaffel (Fernaufklärung) of II. Flakkorps, which was stationed initially at Köln-Ostheim. But on 10 May it was completely subordinated to the Luftlandekorps and therefore - in many sources - indicated (named) as Aufklärungsstaffel 7. FD, which is not correct, but makes the direct link with division of Kurt Student. Commander of the Staffel was Oberleutnant G. Langguth. The unit consisted of a Korpsführungskette with 6 Do-17M reconn. Furhermore there was a reconn unit with 4 Do-17M and a reconn/signals unit with 4 Hs-126B aircraft. It is for sure that at least a part of the unit operated from Waalhaven as from 10 May. Pictures of a parked Hs -126 at Waalhaven are also known. To the division force - apart from the both large transportgroups KGzbV 1 and 2 - was also an unknown transport aircraft attached. Probably these were two Ju52's for signals. No futher details are known, despite that this unit was lead by Oberleutnant F. Schäfer.

My advice is to find more info on Oberleutnant G Langguth - perhaps Doug (Stankey)/Larry (de Zeng) might know more."

The Do17M or P at Waalhaven does not have a 4Q code, but apparently a code of ?4+EA, possibly B4 or P4+EA.

Commenting on a photo of the partial codes of this a/c, Peter C. has commented: "I make out B4+EA with a very distinctive style of ‘open’ 4." Robert further commented, after seeing Rob's translation: "it could be possible that (the Do17 at Waalhaven) was from Korpsfuehrungskette of Luftflandekorps."

So that is where things stand now. We really want to get these two photo-confirmed Luftwaffe losses added to our massive, narrative, EOE Luftwaffe loss/damage/casualty DB for 1939-1940. However, we need more details on dates of incidents shown in the photos (on or about May 10, 1940), units (for the Do17), and circumstances of these two loss/damage incidents. Robert has suggested to me that the Hs126, which carries the insignia and codes for the recon staffel for 7 Fl.Div. may have had it's back broken (the principal damage observed in the photos) by artillery fire after it landed at Waalhaven. The Do17 has about 50 machine gun bullet holes in it, which could have been inflicted in the air by a fighter (forcing it down), or after it landed with the left main gear collapsed, by a Dutch machine gun position--or a combination of both.

We're making serious headway on the subjects of both of my posts, and I hope that we can make the final link between the Z5 code and it's unit, as well as the full codes, identity and details of the Do17 crack up at Waalhaven. The latter is probably going to require a clear photo of the a/c codes, which I'm convinced is out there somewhere due to the extensive photography taken at Waalhaven after its capture by the Germans. For those not familiar with the geography, Waalhaven was the airfield at Rotterdam.

Regards,

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Hello Larry,

your a/c was the Do17M-1, Z5 + BH, from Aufklärungsstaffel des Gen.Kdo. 1 Flakkorps. It was shot down in the morning of 20 May 1940 near Reims from French AA guns. The pilot was Ufzz. Edgar Berthold (likely injured because it were 1 1/2 months to his next flight). Take off was in Ochamps (Belgium) at 9.30 am.

Best regards
Rasmussen

Re: ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code
 

Could it hv been made prisoner ??

Rémi