Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Hi all,
unfortunately this topic was going down in another one Thread. So I will start it here again. I would like to know what is your opinion about the books written by Olaf Gröhler. I am sure everybody interested in aviation history has at least one book of this German author. And many excellent authors are quoting informations published by Gröhler.
I have the book "Bombenkrieg gegen Deutschland" (Akademie-Verlag Berlin 1990), where you can read on page 12:

Bereits am 1.September 1939 wurde der Vorbefehl für die Bombardierung Warschaus erlassen und dieser dann am 10.September mit der verlogenen Behauptung begründet:
"Der Angriff ist als Vergeltung der an den deutschen Soldaten verübten Verbrechen anzusehen und hat die Zerstörung von Wasserkante zum Ziel. Es kommt darauf an, bei dem ersten Angriff weitgehende Zerstörungen in dicht besiedelten Stadtteilen zu erreichen."


In another one very interesting book you can find many lectures about the air war in World War 2: Vorträge zur Militärgeschichte Band 12, Luftkriegsführung im Zweiten Weltkrieg, Verlag E.S.Mittler & Sohn GmbH, Herford 1993.
On pages 329-349 you will find the following contribution: Olaf Groehler - Der strategische Luftkrieg und seine Auswirkungen auf die deutsche Zivilbevölkerung. On page 332 we can read the following:

Bereits am 10.September 1939 befahl der Generalstab der Luftwaffe unter willkürlich weiter Auslegung des Repressalienbegriffs:
"Der Angriff ist als Vergeltung der an den deutschen Soldaten verübten Verbrechen anzusehen und hat die Vernichtung von Wasserkante..." (as above)"


Reading these sentences the reader must believe there was an original order (to destroy the city Warsaw) which arrived all Luftwaffe units and so on and so on.
But Gröhler cut out two very important sentences. Here is the original document:


Entwurf: Angriffsbefehl "Wasserkante"
(Dieses Dokument trägt den Vermerk: nicht befohlen CH.
Op 1 aufheben v.W.)

1. Lfl.1 und 4 bereiten für 11.9. einen zusammengefassten Angriff gegen "Wasserkante" vor.
2. Der Angriff ist als Vergeltung der an den deutschen Soldaten verübten Verbrechen anzusehen und hat die Zerstörung "Wasserkante" zum Ziel.
...
6. Einzelheiten der Durchführung:
a. Es kommt darauf an, bei dem 1.Angriff weitgehendst Zerstörungen in den Stadtteilen zu erreichen.
b. Daneben ist die Zerstörung der militärisch wichtigsten Ziele unter allen Umständen durch den Einsatz von Stuka-Verbänden sicherzustellen.
c. Beim 1.Angriff sind keine Brandbomben mitzuführen.
....
Weisungen des Ob.d.L. Fuehrungsstabes Ia fuer den Feldzug in Polen an Luftflotte 1 und 4 mit Ergaenzungen und Vorbefehlen
BA/MA Freiburg, ZA 3/418, page 34-35.



Comparing the original document and what we can read in Gröhler`s words we see the manipualtion done by the author. In reality this order was a draft and never arrived German Luftwaffe units or staffs, because it just wasn`t ordered. By the way if Luftwaffe (intended) bombed civilian targets in Poland is another topic (discussed and closed on another Thread) and I don`t want to continue it here.

Gröhler was starting his book and the latter lecture with such a manipulation (he concealed it was a draft and not ordered) and I will ask you what can we believe written by the author in all his books?

The other question is: is there anyhow a need to manipulate documents to bring evidence of German war crimes?
Also photo expositions on German war crimes are quoting Gröhler`s (manipulated) words, it seem to be a irrevocable basis. And it seems to be the only (German) documented evidence about the beginning of bombing terror against civilians.

What about other authors?

Marius

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Isn't he Comrade Gröhler? :)

What I mean is that he is from the former East (Communist) Germany and most probably was a party member - a must for such a high profile position. Accordingly, he just followed the party line, namely vilifying the whole German Army, as per Moscow's directives.

I've read his book on the air war during W.W. 2, translated in Hungarian, many years ago, and my opinion was that he was clearly biased against the 'Nazi' Luftwaffe.

I would certainly not quote him as reference in any of my writings.

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Marius, could you please explain the sentence "CH. Op 1 aufheben v.W."?

Regards,
Pawel

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Pawel,

I am not sure now, but Op 1 could mean point 1 of the order or "Operation". The bombing mission was planned for 11.9. and therefore ceased (aufheben).
v.W. is probably Oberstleutnant von Waldau.

Marius

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Marius,

Could this cancellation only refer to point one in the order: the combined operation of Luftfl. 1 & 4?

In which case there is no lie, but only misinterpretation, since the document does proof Groeher's point and differs only on the technicality of joint operations.

Perhaps Op means operationeller Punkt, or something like that?

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Ruy,
nobody said it is a lie, but a manipulation. The reader of the books does not know the order was a draft only.
Combined or not combined..., this order was cealed. There was no such attack on Warsaw on 11.9. or later (you can compare it with my book Kampfflieger, where all bombing missions are listed hour after hour and day after day).
"Nicht befohlen" is concerning the whole document.

For the 25.9. exists another order, where you cannot find any intention to bomb purely civilian targets.

It is possible that "Unternehmen Wasserkante" was "Operation 1", planned as a big bombing attack on Warsaw on 1.9.1939.
I will ask someone for it.

Marius

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

One more note;
Ruy, you wrote about point 1. It is giving the date 11.9. for the mission. But in Gröhler`s articles you cannot find this detail. The author just cut out point 2 from the whole context.
As I read one of the books many years ago, I was convinced this order was generalized for September 1939 and in fact given to Luftwaffe units. But it seems Gröhler had a vision of the things at first and then he was searching for "proper words" in documents.

The very big problem is that the publicity is knowing only Gröhler`s version of the order and it is using it plentiful and as reliable. Ironically you can find it everywhere. And here the question comes up from itself: where are other similar orders? What about the air war history if they did not even existed?

Our speculations concerning Op 1 and the rest are perhaps going much too far. They could be common short-cuts in the German military administration papers.

Marius

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Warsaw was a target of heavy attack on the previous day and a lot of leaflets were then droped. On 11.09 Heeresgruppe Sued called for immediate air support due to unexpected attack of Polish army (Battle of Bzura). This, combined with Hitler's visit on the front, may have resulted with cancellation of the order.
By the way, why not to ask Groehler himself?

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

The whole area around Warsaw was bombed on 10.9., not only the city itself. I don`t know anything about leaflets on this day.
In spite of the Bzura battle Luftwaffe was strong enough to carry out such a repression attack on Warsaw. For example also on 13.9. ca. 218 aircraft of Luftflotte 4 attacked military targets in Warsaw.

The order was never cancelled, because it was a draft only. As you will it never left the drawer. Such methods of attacks surely were discussed (as in every other nation`s high commands too). In Poland it was not needed to demoralize civilians, because Poland was too weak and the campaign took a fast end.

I think the reason for cancellation of the draft is going to an international matter. President Roosevelt send a note to the participating governments at the start of the war and everybody of them agreed (as I remember).
The other reason should be the fear of retaliatory attacks by French and RAF bombers.

I can "understand" that later RAF (divided from Germany by the English Channel) sought for any method to win the long war.
Maybe we will not find similar German orders for the period 1940-1941 as well, because Germany was repeatedly searching for peace with England. Such repression attacks against the enemy would make it impossible to gain peace.

Marius

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Germany was in hurry to finish the campaign and was also in hurry to get Warsaw. One of the Stalin's conditions was that Warsaw must be captured before the enter of the Red Army. Hence many misleading reports about capture of Warsaw. Also, it seems you overestimate Luftwaffe abilities, as IIRC, on 17.09 raids on Warsaw were cancelled and all the efforts directed toward tactical targets.

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

If he is the same person as mentioned here http://www.polwiss.fu-berlin.de/fsi/ap/ap5-sedstaat.htm (I believe so), than he passed away lately.

Pozdrowienia,
Pawel

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Yes, but nevertheless Germany was waiting several days for the surrender of Warsaw, without bombing it. So we could see this as a "trial of human attitude".



On 17.9. should have appear Polish parlementaires, but they didn`t. Cancelling all Luftwaffe attacks against Warsaw on this day was a personal decision of Hitler. Bombing of Warsaw wouldn`t have been a problem, because several bomb groups (Kampfgeschwader) were ready for this action, for example KG 3. And see, the heavy bombing was carried out on the 25th (!!), not earlier.
In spite of Russian aggression on the 17th and the whole desperately operational situation of Polish troops the Polish decision not to surrender in Warsaw was totally foolish.

Marius

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

God, save us from the German human attitude!

Hitler's decision was to send all tactical units to Kutno area and that was teh reason of the order.

Indeed, and indeed Warsaw was bombed this day. Churches, hospitals and various other civilian buildings were targetted.

Apparently you believe everything before had been done by martians.

Please, refrain from your comments, they are neither wise nor appropriate.
Poland fought as long as possible because this was a result of agreements with France and UK.

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Lets not go into the same direction as last thread, disagreement is fine, but shifting towards provocation is not.

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

You are right. I think I should ignore those posts.

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Yes, for you it is hard to believe, but so it was. You must differe some things from others. Not all Germans were personifications of evil.



Kutno was not the reason of cancelling the bombing mission. Germany expected the parlementaires and the surrender of Warsaw. However some units were indeed directed to the Kutno pocket.



This is Polish propaganda. Luftwaffe did not attack on this day. Or can you tell me what Luftwaffe units did?



I mean "heavy bombing". On the 25th it was for the first time that bombs were dropped in Warsaw almost everywhere, without regard to civilian lives.



Great! After 17 days nothing happened from the French or English direction. Polish government flew outside the country. Additionally Russians invaded from the East. But the Poles had to hope for a miracle and die for nothing. Really wise.

Marius

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Some points from me.

1. Olaf Groehler (not Gröhler) is dead for years.

2. Olaf Groehlers "Geschichte des Luftkrieges" is a popular rework of his Dissertation. So for absolut clearence of this point you should try to get the original work.

3. According to the usual behaving in Third Reich, there is no need for a written order to make a war crime or something similar (in other nations maybe also). Alone the intention of this order is clear.

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Jens,

1. Do you know when exactly he died?

2. The readers have bought and read the book and not the dissertation. But why should it differe from the book?
Many people are using the book as a reliable source (look at the German war crimes exposition!). But nevertheless I have presented the original document here on the forum. So you can compare it with the "cut out" done by Gröhler. The authors intention was very clearly.

3. I wrote earlier that in many countries there were discussions about the possibilities and effects of an air war against civilians. This German document is clearly showing it was also done in Germany (discussed does not mean here executed).
You will not find a single target in Polish campaign that was bombed with the intention of demoralizing civilians. There was no time to and no need to do such things.
On the other hand before the war in Poland there were plans to bomb German cities, for example Königsberg (with the modern P.37 bombers). Was here the intension clear?

Marius

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Sorry couldnt answer since my absence from internet.

1. Didn't know exactly when, but must be around 1994 or so. Groehler was accussed for working with the Stasi (Eastern German Secret Service). He was fired and a broken man due this accussing. Later i heard from western german historicans, Groehler wasn't guilty... .

2. The intention is clear, but must not be wrong. Maybe he knows more. (Other documents which are not so clear like the quoted document, which ist the best for popular work)

3. That seems wrong. Already at 1st September 1939 german aircraft has order to destroy polish towns. article from German Newspaper "Die Zeit" http://hermes.zeit.de/pdf/index.php?...03/07/A-Wielun
Stukas got direct order to destroy the polish small town Wielun. See also reportage by german TV ZDF
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/10/0,...185322,00.html
interviewing last surviving pilot by StG-77, who admitted to get order of targetting civilian buildings. Polish civilians reported also machinegunfire by Stukas.

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Jens,

2. We had an interesting and hot discussion here on the forum where I asked for such a Luftwaffe document clearly showing the German intention against civilians (in Poland or later). Nobody was able to show us such a document and this is very interesting, even surprising.
If Groehler would have know more he had never to cut out the sentences from this particular original document. He surely would present such a "strong" document. The solution is clear: he hadn`t at hand a better document.

3. Joachim Trenkner`s article is well known. But it is a fairy tale (the ZDF reportage was based on Trenkner`s article). The only truth is that on 1.9. German bombs hit Wielun. The rest is based on what was written in Poland after the war. And this was clear directed in a particular direction (one more German war crime). Trenkner even manipulated the take off time of the Ju 87`s in German original documents to bring the evidence that the bombing attack was a brutal act of terror against civilians (according to Trenker the bombs fell at 4.40 hours - 5 minutes before the official attack by German troops!!).

The machine gun fire is much questionable. Every book describing the opening of the war on 1.9.1939 is stating about the very bad weather conditions in the morning of that day. Make your conclusions yourself.

In original German documents you will find the military target expected in Wielun: a Polish "cavalry brigade". Yes, hereby were killed civilians. But the intention was to hit Polish troops, not civilians.

Marius

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

I found an interesting interview with Dr.Horst Boog regarding the bombing of Wielun and the myths around it :

http://www.jf-archiv.de/archiv04/404yy50.htm

Jan-Hendrik

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Could you summarize what Boog says in the two last paragraphs (mentioning Mölders and Nowotny) as my German was overwhelmed in trying to decipher that.

Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
 

Boog is primary critisizing this german TV programm :

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/10/0,...185322,00.html

where the Wielun was presented in a sensationalized way with such sentences like "The history of WW2 has to be rewritten" as such stuff . Interestingly those jounarlists contacted Dr.Boog while producing this stuff , he told them clearly where they may find primary sources for the case Wielun , but instead of doing this research they presented Treckners claims as facts . He clearly points out that there are no primary sources backing up the claim of "Terrorbombing" , au contraire , they clearly show that it was a "normal" tactical attack . He was very angry about this "sensationalized" presentation and the stupid employment of Generalisation in this programme .

Then he comes to the allegations against Mölders and Nowotny in German TV , which were not backup with facts anyway , just with plump claims .



In my opinion he is right , because if we research historic events it is our duty to divide claims from facts ! And , as I took a look on the locked discussion regarding the Topic of Wielun and Frampol , I was shocked that those contributors who still claim the allegation of "Terrorbombing" where unable to present any primary sources backing up their claim . Thats more than unprofessional on historic research . If have already seen to many WW2--myths that shattered into pieces as someone did real research on them .

Just my humble 2 cents ,

Jan-Hendrik