22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Hello all,

On 22 Aug 44 a P-47 was shot down near Tours sur Marne at 14.20 hours (German time). This happened during a low level strafing attack of Mustangs and Thunderbolts on Tours sur Marne airfield. The P-47 was hit by groundfire and crashed 4 km east of the airfield. Who can please provide more details? Thanks.

Best regards,
Rob

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Possible : 42-27175
http://p-47.database.pagesperso-oran...e/42-2xxxx.htm

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Hello udf_00,

Thanks - looks like the P-47 I am after. Do you have more details on this P-47D of 358 FG/365 FS? Pilot Harry D. Bassler KIA.

Best regards,
Rob

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Lt. Bassler was lost in CH-B 42-27175. No MACR has been found yet, but according to the squadron write up of the mission, "The P-47 piloted by 1st Lt. Harry D. Bassler was seen to mush into the ground and crash near Chalons during the engagement with the enemy." I have a little information on Lt. Bassler if you can let me know what it is you would like.

Here is what I have found on airfields attacked this date by 9th Air Force units--not sure if Tours Sur Marne is close to any of these or not, sorry.

358 FG attacked Creil and Chalons A/D's. 367 FS destroyed one Me 410 and damaged two Me 410's and one He 111 at Creil.

367 FG hit an A/D north of Laon and destroyed an unidentified plane on the ground in the Fressabcourt area.

356 FS destroyed four Me 109's on ground in Beauvais rea.

474 FG hit A/D's near Amiens and St. Quentin. At the St. Quentin a Me 410 was destroyed and two He 111's were damaged.

For all the above claims I have the names of individual scorers if needed. Hope this helps.

Kent

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Rob and Kent

sorry this a bit late in the day but I wonder if you can help.

I'm trying to verify a report that Tours sur Marne airfield was attacked in August 1944. The report claims that the Luftwaffe unit based there - which was I think Jg76 - suffered severe losses (the report claims the unit was "exterminated").

Rob - do you know how bad the losses were? Presumably,this was III./Jg76

Kent - you mention "the squadron write-up of the mission". I'd be really grateful if you could tell me which USAAF squadron(s) carried out the attack. And, even better, what they claimed in the way of damage to the enemy.

Thank you Gentlemen.

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Following on from my last post. I've looked at the Ultra decrypts for this.

III./Jg76 was at Athis (sometimes called Tours-sur-Marne) airfield on 22/08/44. The following day it reported a sharpdrop in serviceability which was questioned by JagdKorps II.

On the 25/08/44 Jg76 responded saying that its "high losses" since its previous strength report a couple of days earlier were

18 a/c missing
3 a/c 100% damaged
2 Belly landings
5 Shot up

They don't sound like ground attack losses to me and, anyway, are far more severe than Kent mentions in the attack mounted by 358fg/365FS on Chalons-sur-Marne in which Brassler was killed.

Rob, may I ask what is your source for the ground attack on Athis/Tours sur Marne on the 22/8/44?

My interest is in establishing whether or not during August there was an attack on Athis in which the resident unit was wiped out. Jg76 took over Athis from II./Jg3 on 20/21 August.

II./Jg3 reported no significant losses from airfield attack during August.

Therefore, my reasoning is that if there were significant losses at Athis from air attack it must have been when III./Jg76 were there. Alternatively, if there weren't any significant losses to ground attack at Athis then my source is incorrect.

Help please - any contribution would be very gratefully received.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

For what it is worth there were no 8th AF claims in France 19-22 August.

The 479th had a very big day at Nancy on the 18th but the t/e aircraft were identifued as Ju-88 and He 111s.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Please excuse me for butting in here. I have full Allied intelligence data on all French airfields with current updates throughout the war. Among the 1,400+ listings of all airfields, landing grounds, field airstrips, dummy/decoy airfields, etc., there is no "Athis" or "Tours-sur-Marne" after summer 1940. According to this data, III./JG 53 was briefly at "Tours-sur-Marne" in mid-June 1940. Neither "Athis" or "Tours-sur-Marne" are ever mentioned again in the Luftwaffe documentation. After that date, only Épernay-Plivot is mentioned. That airfield lies less than 5 km west of the village of Athis. It was common for the Germans to call an airfield by one name while the Allies called in by another name, and that may be the case here.

Another possibility is that "Athis" is confused with Laon-Athies, which is 66 km northwest of Tours-sur-Marne.

I think this confusion needs to be sorted out before you can get an answer to your question.

BTW, I have the books on 8th AAF Fighter Command claims, both air and ground and the 9th AAF equivalent for fighter-bomber missions. Neither mentions an attack on airfields at Athis, Tours-sur-Marne, Laon-Athies or Épernay-Plivot during the second half of August 1944. That dosn't mean that one did not occur, but in an attack claiming the "extermination" of an entire Gruppe of fighters one might think it would be mentioned.

L.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Thanks so much for your responses. As usual a lot of really helpful info. I'm not sure where to start.

There definately was an airfield variously called Athis / Tours-sur-marne and sometimes Plivot - all of those names are used in the Ultra decrypts (the ones which have the intelligence appreciatin/interpretation added).

After the Luftwaffe left it was used briefly in 1944 by the USAAF and then abandoned. According to local historians modern day Epernay/Plivot a/f - a few Ks to the West - was built to replace Athis which was so badly damaged that it didn't make economic sense to rebuild it. Like most of the wartime airfields in the Chalons area - Vraux, Conentre, Vertus and others - it was returned to farmland after the war.

I was aware of Laon-Aethis and have taken the possibility of misspellings, etc into account when trying to make sense of that pesky Athis airfield.

My source describes the airfield as "Tours" by which he meant Tours sur Marne - the source was located only a few kilometers away at Bouzy so I'm quite certain he wasn't talking about the other Tours which is several hundred Ks distant.

II./Jg3 transferred there on the 10/11th August and left 20/21st August. I'm not quite sure who was there before - possibly Jg27 because it sent a signal to II JagdKorps for II./Jg3 on about the 11th saying that Athis/Plivot was cleared for landing. Jg27 (can't remember the gruppe off-hand) had been recalled to Germany and left its few remaining aircraft behind for II./Jg3 (according to Ultra)

Athis lay just across the river Marne from Tours-sur-Marne. The info about Epernay/Plivot repair shop looks like a really interesting line of enquiry. I'm beginning to wonder if Athis was, as I think Larry suggests actually Epernay / Plivot, - the a/f being moved a few Ks further west of Athis village after the war.

So far as bad weather preventing raids on the 22nd August go - I also wasn't able to trace the raid referred to by Kent. But I put that down to my amateur status in matters like this.

Like Larry I think it would be very unlikely that the destruction of a Gruppe would not go unremarked - that's probably why OKL (OberKommand Luft?) queried Jg76's 23/8/44 returns via JagdKorps II. Surely the losses they reported amount at least to the majority of a Gruppe?

I'm satisfied that II./Jg3 was at Athis/Plivot/Tours from about 10th to 20th August and that they didn't take much in the way of losses on the ground during that time. I'm also satisfied that III./Jg76 took over the same field from II./Jg3 and were there for about a week before they were withdrawn. I Imagine the a/f was then trashed as part of Model's expertise in scorched earth but I haven't got that far in the Ultra decrypts yet. A/F demolition preparations are usually recorded in the Ultra files and I'd be surprised if its not there - especially because the German High Command seemed to be getting very touchy about units withdrawing prematurely and abandoning useful equipment at that point in the break-out.

The only question in my mind is whether the losses recorded by Jg76 on the 23rd were the result of an attack on the airfield or were air combat losses. I don't know enough about this subject area to make a judgement which is why I asked. But commonsense tells me that missing aircraft and belly landings suggest air combat. Also, was the raid in which Brassler lost his life connected to the big losses reported by Jg76 on the 23rd August (Rob who started this whole darn thing off mentions a low-level strafing of "Tours-sur-Marne" airfield). It would be good to know his source because that might settle the matter.

My sole interest in this is to either verify or debunk a claim by an Allied agent working in Bouzy that he called down a raid on "Tours" airfield which "exterminated" the Udet. Obviously it's a ridiculous or at least grossly exagerated claim but there might be a bit of truth in it - for example, could the agent be referring to the losses suffered by Jg76 on 22nd August? And could that have been the raid in which Brassler lost his life?

This probably doesn't seem very important - and in a way it isn't but I'm writing a book about this individual and I have to be fastiduous about the detail before I start trashing an individual's reputation in print.

Once again thank you everybody - I never fail to be helped here by people whose knowledge and research skills is, frankly, awesome. For example, if it wasn't for Nick Beale's suggestion I would never have thought of looking at Ultra and wouldn't have known how to make sense of it. I love this forum but I'm still getting to grips with its subject matter which, as you may have grasped, is slightly tangential to my focus of interest. But I'd love to hear some more ideas - after 5 days reading Ultra decrypts I'm badly in need of stimulation!

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

"... after 5 days reading Ultra decrypts I'm badly in need of stimulation!"

After five days of reading Ultra you're probably more in need of rest and quiet in a darkened room.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Hello Chris, Larry and all others,

Interesting thread -

My source is a German combat report stating that ground crew member Obergefreiter Dorn of Stabskompanie II./JG 3 claimed a Thunderbolt on 22 Aug 44 at 14.20 hours "4km ostwärts des Feldflugplatzes Tours sur Marne". On this day Mustangs and Thunderbolts attacked this airfield at 14.15 hours - at the very same time when "unsere Gruppe " (II./JG 3) was taking off.

II./JG 3 was operating from Nogent le Roi from 27 July 44 - 10 Aug 44
From Athis from 10 Aug 44 - 21 Aug 44.

Interesting is that sources also state that II./JG 3 left Athis on 21 Aug 44. And that on 20 Aug 44 III./JG 76 arrived at Athis to replace II./JG 3 (Prien, Stemmer, II./JG 3, page 359). Part of ground crew had to stay at Athis in order to look after the aircraft of III./JG 76; obviously a small Kommando of pilots of II./JG 3 was attached to III./JG 76.

Might Athis, Tours sur Marne and d'Epernay-Plivot all be the very same airfield..?

Ultra stated on 13 Aug 44:
II./JG 3 on A/F 139A (Plivot); this provides confirmation that II./JG 3 is to remain in France and not transferring to Reich to rest and refit as envisaged. For a/c of II./JG 27 being taken over by II./JG 3.

Best regards,
Rob

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Some additional information on Plivot:

Épernay-Plivot (FR) (a.k.a. Athis) (49 00 25 N – 04 05 10 E) )
General: landing ground in NE France 28 km S of Reims, 10.5 km ESE of Épernay and 1.2 km SE of the village of Plivot.
History: a French Air Force landing ground since at least 1939. Used by the RAF in 1939-40. Believed to have been used by Luftwaffe Bf 109s and by a short-range tactical reconnaissance unit during the advance through France in June 1940. No subsequent development by the Germans after the Armistice until Spring 1944. Surface and Dimensions: grass surface measuring 915 x 732 meters (1000 x 800 yards). No runways. Fuel and Ammunition: had underground fuel tanks on the N and SW sides of the landing area. Infrastructure: no hangers, workshops or other buildings of any sort (May 43). The nearest rail connection was in the village of Oiry 5 km NW of the landing ground. Dispersal: no organized dispersal areas and the landing area was surrounded by open cultivated fields. Defenses: none (12 May 44).
Remarks:
3 Oct 43: Allied reconnaissance reported Épernay-Plivot to be permanently obstructed by trenches and in addition to being trenched, the landing area was further obstructed by rough plowing.
19 Apr 44: Allied reconnaissance and agents reported Épernay-Plivot had filled in the trenches and leveling work was underway to add a 320 meter (350 yard) extension off the SW corner to give the landing area a NE/SW take-off and landing run of 1510 meters (1650 yards); due to the construction, the landing ground is currently unserviceable.
12 May 44: Allied reconnaissance reported continuing work on the extension and the installation of perimeter lighting. Landing ground now serviceable.
Operational Units: Stab/JG 53 (Jun 40).
Station Commands: none identified.
Lw. Station Units (on the landing ground or close by on various dates – not complete): Frontreparaturbetrieb GL Épernay (1944); schw.Flak-Abt. 278 (Eisb.) (Aug 44).
[Sources: AFHRA A5259 p.1608 (14 Aug 43 updated to 12 May 44 and A5260 pp.1991-94); chronologies; BA-MA; NARA; PRO/NA; web site ww2.dk]

I wonder if Athis might have been a satellite of Plivot? Again, there is no mention of Tours-sur-Marne or Athis in this extremely comprehensive Allied airfields documentation. Very strange.

L.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Everybody - thanks again.

Sorry not to have responded sooner -just back from France.

Like Larry my feeling is that Tours-sur-marne/Athis/Plivot were one and the same. However, just to confuse matters further Ultra reported on T274 (can't remember exact date) as follows:

"To ABIOC ((JG 3)) for ABUNO (( (ROMAN) 11 JG)) 3 on 10/8:- airfield ATHIS 20km East of Epernay between river and Railway. Square U175. Serviceable for landing.

NOTE: (1) source believes from JG 27 (2) on 9/8 Jagdkorps 2 ordered ROMAN II Jg 3 to be withdrawn to the reich for rest and refit.

Fair indication JG 27 on 10th informed J3 for 2nd Gruppe that airfield ATHIS 20km east of Epernay between river and railway was servicable for landing."

However, ATHIS lies closer than 20km to the east of Eperany; it's also south of both the river and the railway - but only just. But VRAUX lies 20km east of Epernay and according to the people who run the musuem at VRAUX "it seems that some BF 109 GS of JG 3 , based at Tours / Marne , also used Vraux , this time during June / July / August 1944." VRAUX and ATHIS are a short distance and equidistant from Tours-sur-Marne.

The wikipedia entry for ATHIS airfield says that modern Plivot was built a short distance from the original ATHIS airfield - it's claimed that all that's left of the original ATHIS airfield is a triangular concrete section which was the intersection of the two runways at ATHIS. Using Google street view one can indeed see what looks like a concrete section in the fields to the south west of ATHIS.

I think the only way to settle this is to visit the area and speak to local people. My guess is that they were all one and the same place. But I'm a bit concerned about the very detailed allied description of Plivot which Larry gives. I intended to visit PLIVOT and ATHIS last week but got side-tracked. I shall be in the area again in early September and will make a visit to try to settle this matter.

Fortunately for me, the key issue is whether JG 3 was "exterminated" by an RAF attack on an airfield close to TOURS-sur-Marne - whether the airfield was VRAUX, ATHIS or PLIVOT doesn't really matter.

I haven't seen any evidence that II/JG 3 suffered serious losses whilst on the ground when staioned in the Chalons area. And I don't think the RAF operated there. Therefore, I believe the agent's report was at best a gross exaggeration but more likely he was claiming the credit for what was a routine attack by the USAAF where a JG 3 gruppe (probably II/Jg3)suffered some losses but nothing like the catastrophic losses the agent portrayed in his report.

Thanks again for sharing your ideas and scholarship - it's most appreciated.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Excellent report, Chris! I, for one, will be looking forward to your findings after your on-site investigative inspection. It should prove very interesting and I hope you are able to find some old timers who still have some recollections of August 1944.

Larry

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Thanks Larry. The lat/longs for Plivot in the intelligence summary you give are right in the centre of the current Plivot airfield. Do you know if those lat/longs for Plivot were extracted from a WW2 intelligence report? Or are they a modern addition? I notice that Plivot is alo described as "(aka Athis)" If that were part of the original report then I imagine that settles the matter - ATHIS/PLIVOT were one and the same.

The purpose of my September visit will be to establish the exact locations of airfields in the Tours-sur-Marne area which were active in August 1944. I shall report back here when I know more.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Yes, Chris, those coordinates for Plivot were taken directly from the 1944 Directorate of Air Intelligence/Air Ministry airfield sheet without correction or alteration. The coordinates given in these airfield sheets was always for the dead center of the landing area.

Here is another one for you:

Vraux (FR) (a.k.a. Condé-sur-Marne) (49 02 37 N – 04 14 49 E)
General: landing ground in NE France 29-30 km SE of Reims, 13 km NW of Châlons-sur-Marne, 5.2 km E of Condé-sur-Marne and 1.6 km NNE of the village of Vraux. The landing ground was situated in a conspicuous triangle whose sides were - NE: the Reims- Châlons road; SW: the Canal Lateral de la Marne and the Marne River; NW: Canal de la Marne a L’Aisne.
History: Vraux/Condé-sur-Marne was a pre-war French Air Force field airstrip that was used by the RAF during 1939-40. It was obstructed by the Luftwaffe and ignored until spring 1944. Surface and Dimensions: open field measuring approx. 1150 x 960 meters (1250 x 1050 yards) and irregular in shape. Fuel and Ammunition: unknown. Infrastructure: no hangars or workshops, but there were 2 small buildings in the S corner that were being used as accommodations in Apr 44. The nearest rail connection was on a narrow-guage line at Vraux, and the nearest main line connection was at Châlons-sur-Marne. Dispersal: no organized dispersal facilities.
Remarks:
Jun 42: landing area reportedly obstructed.
19 Apr 44: landing area no longer obstructed. Original landing area now serviceable and leveling work has begun to extend the S boundary to provide a NE/SW landing take-off run of approx. 1510 x 320 meters (1650 x 350 yards).
Operational Units: I., II./JG 53 (15-22 Jun 40).
Station Commands: Fl.H.Kdtr. E 12/XIII (24 Jun 40).
Station Units (on various dates – not complete): none identified.
[Sources: AFHRA A5259 p.1543 and A5260 pp.1909-10 (2 Jul 43 updated to 19 Apr 44); chronologies; BA-MA; NARA; PRO/NA; web site ww2.dk]

Larry

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Hello Chris and Larry,

The following link might be helpful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athis_Airfield

Best regards,
Rob

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Thanks for the link, Rob. More grist for the mill and more conflicts for Chris to try and sort out.

II./JG 3: Athis (10-22 Aug 44)
III./JG 3: Chalons-sur-Marne (10-27 Aug 44)

AirMin A.I.2.b coordinates for Épernay-Plivot 49 00 25 N – 04 05 10 E
Wiki Athis coordinates: 49 00 28 N – 04 06 50 E

The Wiki coordinates for Athis are a little less than 2 km E of the AirMin coordinates for Épernay-Plivot. There is no Google Earth evidence of there ever being an airfield at the Wiki coordinates. The difference in the coordinates may be that the AirMin ones are from 1944 while the Wiki ones are from May 2012. Since coordinates change over time, the passage of 68 years may account for this slight difference. If so, then this is further evidence that Épernay-Plivot and Athis are one and the same.

Châlons-sur-Marne is a different problem - see below:


Châlons-sur-Marne (FR) (a.k.a. L’Épine, Écury-sur-Coole) (48 54 N – 04 19 E or 48 54 20N – 04 21 05 E?)
General: a former landing ground in E France 6 km S of Châlons-sur-Marne that was inactive and unserviceable from 1940 until late spring 1944 (Jun 44?) when the Luftwaffe hastily restored it to active status. Only operational for two months, no airfield details are available from British Air Ministry sources. History: no information. Surface and Dimensions: no information. Fuel and Ammunition: no information. Infrastructure: no information. Dispersal: no information.
Remarks:
27 Jun 44: low-level attack on Châlons by VIII Fighter Command P-47s – claimed 1 x Bf 109 destroyed and 1 more damaged on the ground.
8 Jul 44: low-level attack by VIII Fighter Command P-51s SW of Châlons – claimed 9 x Bf 109s, 6 x Me 410s and 5 x Fw 190s destroyed, plus 9 x Bf 109s, 6 x Me 410s and 7 x Fw 190s damaged. [Note: “SW of Châlons” is assumed to be this airfield as it was the only one in that location.]
Operational Units: III./JG 3 (10-27 Aug 44).
Station Commands: none identified.
Lw. Station Units (on the airfield, in the town or nearby on various dates – not complete): schw.Flak-Abt. 278 (Eisb.) (Châlons Jun-Aug 44); Stab and elements of Ln.-Telegrafenbau-Abt. z.b.V. 11 (Châlons Dec 42 – Aug 44).
[Sources: chronologies; BA-MA; NARA; PRO/NA; web site ww2.dk]

The landing ground at Châlons-sur-Marne is 22.5 km SE of Plivot (Athis), so it seems unlikely that this two could be confused one for the other.

Larry

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Thanks Rob and Larry

I'd seen the Wiki entry for Athis airfield. I've no idea whether it's reliable -there is so much on Wiki which is not.

The lat/longs they give are almost exactly where there is what appears to be a triangular section of concrete which I suppose could be an old section of runway. But, they say the airfield was to the SE of Athis village. The section of concrete is to the SW of the village. Like Larry I can't see any other signs of an airfield on Google Earth or Streetview.

I think the only way to settle this is by visiting the area and speaking to local people - there should be somebody at Tours, Athis and/or Plivot who can remember which airfields were where in August 1944. I shall also visit the folk who run the airfield museum at Vraux and stooge around on the ground to see if there are any signs of the pesky Athis airfield.

I've discounted Chalons airfield because it doesn't fit any of the other information - except that an Udet gruppe (III/Jg3) was based there in August.

Thanks again

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Hello Rob and Larry

just had some news from the folks at the Vraux airfield museum.

They say there was an airfield equi-distant from Tours-sur-Marne, Plivot and Athis. It was built by the Germans as a satellite of Plivot and enabled them to conceal aircraft in the woods to the South of Bisseuil - something they couldn't do at Plivot which is/was located in open farmland.

Attached (I hope) is a US report on the airfield after it was servicable.

Attachment 7886

The coordinates were 49deg 01 58N, 4deg 05 48E. I think you can make out the line of the runway on Google Earth.

It fits most of the information I have - (1) the Ultra decrypts refer to it as either "Athis" or "Athis Plivot" (2) An Ultra decrypt says it was located between the river Marne and the railway (3) The pilot in Rob's combat describes it as "Tours-sur-Marne" (4) My agent's report describes it as "Tours" by which he almost certainly meant Tours-sur-Marne.

The Wikapedia entry for Athis is I think incorrect or perhaps describes an additional airfield closer to Athis. The entry describes the airfield as located to the Southeast of Athis - the airfield the Vraux museum folk told me about was located to the northeast of Athis. Also the concrete runway it mentions seems to be incorrect as are the co-ordinates given in the entry and also the date on which it became operational again. I suspect they found a section of concrete, assumed it was a fragment of the old airfield and used its lat/longs for the location of Athis airfield. I suppose it's just possible that the entry is referring to the original Plivot airfield which, according to Wikapedia, was rebuilt closer to Plivot after the war. But that doesn't fit with Larry's airfield intelligence summary.

Larry's allied airfield intelligence info look as though the airfield might not have been known (although I think that's unlikely).

But the new information does look promising. II./Jg 3 seem to have left Athis/Plivot /Tours-sur-Marne on the 21st August but two pilots were reported in Ultra as "detached" - perhaps one of them was Obergefreiter Dorn who made the combat report on the 22nd August. Alternatively, II./Jg 3 actually left on the afternoon of the 22nd.

I seem to recall an Ultra message which says that II./Jg 3 left their aircraft behind for the use of III./Jg 76 (I may be confused on this point - will have to go back through my records to check). That might explain Rob's point about the groundcrew staying on at Athis/Plivot/Tours-sur-Marne.

The folk at Vraux have wartime photographs of the airfield. I shall meet them next week and see what they have. Also, I will visit the alleged site of Athis/Plivot/Tours-sur-Marne and, I hope, bore you with my holiday photos.

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Just to complicate life, there's an Epernay-Plivot that's still an active airfield.

Also this list of aerodromes in the Marne Département might be of help.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Hello Nick

Thanks for that.

Yes, I was aware of "Epernay-Plivot". The lat/longs Larry has for wartime Plivot give a point dead-smack at the intersection of the runways at the modern Epernay-Plivot. In 1944 Athis-Plivot/Tours-sur-Marne seems to have been a satellite landing ground for Plivot where aircraft could be concealed.

None of the other fields in the list you gave fit with the information I have from Ultra, Luftwaffe reports and other sources.

The only "fly-in-the-ointment" is the Wikapedia entry. It is I think, like so much in Wikapedia, unreliable. But I'll check it out next week when I shall be in the area.

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Bravo, Chris! Thanks for sticking with this conundrum and burr under the saddle that is a real challenge to resolve. Your new information is a giant step forward and I hope your forthcoming trip to the area will finally let us put this puzzle to bed. There is a definitive number of airfields and satellites in the area under examination that are known by a mish-mash of different names depending on the source: Allied, German, French and Wiki. It's a matter of pinning the right tail on the right donkey. I am going to refrain from trying to analyze it until the results from your trip are in and we have all the available data in front of us, even though it is tempting to try and do so now!

Good job!

Larry

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Re the aircraft left behind at Athis. I've gone back through my notes - when Jg 27 departed from Athis on 10/11th August they left their aircraft for II./Jg 3 (according to Ultra).

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

ULTRA CX/MSS/R282(C), para. 17 speaks of an Unteroffizier being subordinated to III./JG 3 at "Pocancy near Chalons" on 19 August 1944.

Going by Google Eerath, Pocancy is 7.8 km. SSE of Epernay-Plivot aerodrome. It may have been the location of the Gruppe's HQ or billets rather than another aerodrome, of course.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Some 20 or so years ago, I remember seeing a list authored by Luftflotte 3 or by Feldluftgaukdo. Westfrankreich that identified all of the airfields, landing grounds, field airstrips, alternate landing grounds, satellites and dispersal fields in France on or about 1 July 1944. I knew it could only be in the microfilmed Luftwaffe documents from NARA T-321, T-405 or T-971, so I spent all of today checking the 25 or so rolls that I have but without any luck. I have to assume that it's in one of the other 382 rolls from these series that I borrowed from interlibrary loan rather than purchase. I was hoping this list might clear up the puzzle surrounding these 4 or 5 airfields regarding their locations and proper names. Two of these "airfields" are, I suspect, one of the following:

Aussenliegeplatz: remote dispersal or outlying parking area.
Ausweichflugplatz: alternative airfield, satellite airfield or dispersal airfield (minor – usually no services).
Behelfsflugplatz: auxiliary airfield.

The list I was looking for would have answered this question.

L.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Another reference to Plivot:

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Hello everybody

Pity about the missing microfilm which Larry mentions - that would probably settle the matter.

just back from France where I took the opportunity to visit the impressive Vraux avaiation museum and speak to the curator. I also visted Plivot and stooged around in the fields near Athis looking for signs of the airfield mentioned in Wikapedia. I can really recommend a visit to the Vraux museum. It's run by extremely helpful and knowledgeable aviation enthusiasts and has numerous interesting exhibits including one dedicated to Tours-sur-Marne airfield.

The exhibit dedicated to Tours-sur-Marne airfield has amongst other things a wartime arial photograph of the airfield obtained from Keele, a German combat report from an officer of Jg 3 in which he describes shooting down a US aircraft on the 22nd August shortly after taking off from Tours-sur-Marne, a plan of the airfield, and several photographs taken shortly after it was captured with several damaged Bf109s, etc. The curator told me it wasn't bombed by the allies but it was subjected to some strafing attacks.

I've taken photographs of the exhibit but unfortunately my pesky wife has taken the camera today. I shall post them here tomorrow.

Nobody I spoke to in the area knows anything about Athis airfield as described in the Wikapedia entry. The Wikapedia entry says there were two German-built 1700 metre concrete runways at Athis whereas, according to at least two sources, the Tours-sur-Marne airfield had a single sod & SMT 5000 x120 foot runway at an azimuth of 101deg. That's consistent with the plans exhibited at Vraux. It's possible that the Wikapedia entry is confusing Athis with Plivot. It says that Plivot was rebuilt in its current location (west of Athis village) after the war. However, the people I spoke to believe that current Plivot was built in the 1930s and was used by the allies in 1940 but it was not used by the Luftwaffe which instead built the Tours-sur-Marne airfield because it gave better concealment to its aircraft.

When US forces captured Tours-sur-Marne airfield they called it Athis (ref A-76). That fits with both the US document I posted earlier, the entry in http://www.ixengineercommand.com/airfields/physical.php, the various items exhibited at Vraux aviation museum and other sources.

So I think the remaining puzzle centres on whether Plivot was originally sited closer to Athis village but was rebuilt in its current location after the war. If that is the case then the Wikapedia entry is confusing Plivot with Athis. If Plivot was not rebuilt then the Wikapedia entry is almost certainly wrong. Perhaps it's significant that there's no evidence that Plivot was used by the allies after August 1944. Instead the allies used nearby Tours-sur-Marne/Athis. That suggests that Plivot was too badly damaged to be used - thus supporting the hypothesis that Plivot was rebuilt in its current location after the war. The evidence against that hypothesis is Larry's source (see his earlier entry) which gives co-ordinates placing wartime Plivot in its current location.

There are also some issues around the names used in the Ultra decrypts - variously 'Plivot', 'Athis-Plivot' and 'Athis'. 'Tours-sur-Marne' is not used but 'Athis' is described in an Ultra decrypt as being east of Epernay between the river Marne and the railway line which fits Tours-sur-Marne airfield. I'm not qualified to say whether those are decrypts of names given in clear in the original Luftwaffe signal or an interpretation by the code-breakers of Luftwaffe airfield codes used in the original signals. Perhaps Nick can help with this? Re Nick's info about Pocancy: according to Ultra and other sources III./Jg 3 was operating from Chalons airfield which was some way fom Pocancy.

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Chris -

Great trip report! It is going to take a day or two to digest it all, but for right now I would just like to add the following:



With the exception of Vertus, these were among the several hundred dispersal fields set up by the Luftwaffe in France between approximately February and August 1944, and are the only ones listed for the finite area under discussion, i.e. Epernay east through Tours-sur-Marne to highway A26, south to Saint-Gibrien, southwest to Vertus and then north to Epernay. None of these existed for some time as active/operational fields prior to that date. Most of these were just reasonably level fields of a prescribed dimension and had little or no preparation work done on them. Others may have existed during the 1940 campaign in the West, but were then shut down or inactivated until they were reopened in 1944. This information comes from BA-MA Freiburg Signatur RL Kart 40/7, 8, 53, 225; Kart 42/12, 13; Kart 43/1, 2. These are detailed Luftwaffe maps of the Bodenorganisation, including a map or list of all airfields of whatever sort in France as of June 1944.

Listed:
Plivot: listed as operational June 1944 – August 1944.
Pocancy: listed as operational June 1944 – August 1944.
Vertus: listed as operational October 1943 – August 1944.
Vraux: listed as operational June 1944 – August 1944.

Not Listed:
Athis
Épernay
Épernay-Plivot
Tours-sur-Marne

The above may help toward arriving at a conclusion regarding these airfields.

Larry

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Thanks Larry. I shall put the photos up tomorrow.

The Bodenorganisation info is interesting - it looks as though III./Jg 3 were using Pocancy as a dispersal field (see Nick's post) when based in the Chalons area.

Vraux and Plivot were both active pre-war and were in use by the RAF and the French in 1939/40. Vraux was reactivated, enlarged and used as a dispersal field in 1944 by the Luftwaffe. Plivot wasn't used by the Luftwaffe according to the Vraux museum people. Perhaps the Luftwaffe built a new airfield south of Tours-sur-Marne to replace Plivot but continued to call it Plivot - that could explain why Tours-sur-Marne isn't mentioned in the Bodenorganisation but Plivot is. Does the Bodenorganisation give exact locations for the airfields?

I've written to the curator at Vraux asking him to double-check what he and others told me about Epernay-Plivot airfield.

If it turns out that Plivot was in fact rebuilt post-war further west of the village of Athis (to become modern Epernay-Plivot) then I think it's fair to assume that the Wikapedia entry is a red herring - it's actually talking about wartime Plivot rather than the airfield at Tours-sur-marne which the USAAF named Athis (A-76) when they took it over from the Luftwaffe in late August 1944.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

I must confess, sadly so, that I have never seen the Bodenorganisation maps in person. They were on my list the last time I visited BA-MA in Freiburg, but my two-week stay there came to an end before I could get to them. However, footnote/source/bibliography citations for them appear in various books such as:

Mattiello, Gianfranco. Fliegerhorstkommandanturen und Flugplätze der deutschen Luftwaffe 1935-1945. Osnabrück: Biblio Verlag, 2000. Pb (oversize). 529p. Glossary of abbreviations. Appendix. Index.

My sense is that these maps will only show a tiny triangle, which is the German map symbol for an airfield, and the name written next to it. This is on a 1:500,000 or 1:1,000,000 scale map so the location is imprecise.

There are also RL 40/Kart Aufmarsch der fliegende Verbände maps for 2.7.44 and 31.8.44 that might show these airfields, but often airfields with no flying unit occupancy at the time were omitted from the maps.

I think we have made reasonably good progress on this so far given the lack of documentation on the German side.

Larry

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Hello Everybody

[ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH]Attachment 7951[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]Attachment 7952

here are the pictures I took at Vraux aviation museum.

1. Combat report from Obgefr. Dorn of II./Jg 3 (same one as mentioned in the post which started this thread, I think) Dorn refers to Tours-sur-Marne as a 'Feldflugplatz' if that's significant. According to most sources -including Ultra - II./Jg 3 had left "Athis"/Plivot, etc a day earlier so perhaps Dorn was detached to Jg 76 which took over from II./Jg3.

2. Combat report from 354th Fighter group for 22nd August saying that it destroyed 8 Bf109s shortly after they took off from an airfield 5m East of Epernay (ie Tours-sur-Marne). By the way, the 4 a/c destroyed on the ground were at Beauvais (see next exhibit). The report doesn't mention the loss of Brassler's aircraft (unless I've missed something which is possible). The attack is probably the one referred to by the SOE agent at Bouzy. It seems to me that he was claiming credit for something that was the outcome a routine fighter sweep by the 354th; also, the "extermination" he describes is massively exagerrated and were suffered by Jg 76 rather than the Udet. I think I'm right in saying that Jg76 reported large losses shortly after the incident (will need to check this in my copies of the Ultra signals).

3. War diary of 354th Fighter Group which mentions the 22nd August incident and describes Tours-sur-Marne as "a new grass airfield"

4. Map showing location of Tours-sur-Marne airfield and position of runway

5. Aerial photograph of Tours-sur-Marne airfield taken 15th Aug 44 . The location is consistent with the airfield plan, the Ultra signal describing it as being between the river Marne and the railway line and the US engineers report for Athis (A76) I posted earlier. The date it was taken suggests that the airfield wasn't known to to the allies until then and may have been the outcome of information supplied by the SOE agent at Bouzy (but that's just a charitable guess).

The Vraux museum curator confirms that Plivot airfield was NOT rebuilt and moved further east after the war. Also that neither Plivot nor Tours-sur-Marne had concrete runways. So it looks as though the Wikapedia entry for Athis is complete fiction. Next time I visit the area I shall speak to the mayor of Athis village just to double-check that because there remains a small doubt about this in my mind. Does anybody know how to contact the contributor of a Wikapedia entry? - I'm reluctant to edit it myself without speaking to the contributor first (just in case).

Unless anybody has new information to add I think we've gone about as far as it's possible to go with this.

Chris

I've just reviewed the post - sorry that the thumnails are a bit scattered - don't know what happened there.

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Nice job, Christ.

The Dorn after-action report refers to the airfield as a Feldflugplatz. The generally accepted English language translation for this is field airstrip. Feldflugplätze would be established or designated during times of movement (advances, retreats) and had no permanency. They were exclusively for use by short-range aircraft, i.e., reconnaissance, fighters and ground attack. All that was needed was a level field approximately 500 meters in length. They were almost always returned to agricultural use after the aircraft and ground staff moved on. The 354th Fighter Group report refers to it as "new".

It looks to me from your map of that area that there is just one airfield that has been referred to by three names: Plivot, Athis and Tours-sur-Marne and maybe even a fourth, Pocancy.

What is your interpretation of this? Is there really just one airfield, or are the others not shown on the map?

Larry

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Thanks Larry.

The simple answer is that I don't know. Assuming that the names used in the Ultra decrypts were given in clear in the original signals then the following is my best shot (if they weren't in clear then we would have to rely on the decoders always matching the airfield codes to the right airfields which makes the problem even more difficult)

1. My belief is that Pocancy is not relevant. According to your Bodenorganisation sources it was active and as Nick pointed out Ultra reports an unteroffizier posted there on the 19th August. So we should assume it existed and was in use - possibly by III/Jg.3 which was based near Chalons - as a landing ground without services (like Vraux) available to any unit which wanted to use it. However, it was relatively distant from Plivot,Tours and Athis (but not too far to be a dispersal airfield for Plivot).

2. I'm 95% certain that Tours-sur-Marne and Athis were one and the same airfield. And that it was a dispersal field for Plivot. The only evidence for the Luftwaffe calling it Tours-sur-Marne is Dorn's combat report. I believe the Germans called it Athis because that's what appears in the Ultra decrypts and in other sources (including I think J. Prien's books which are considered to be authoritive). The field is marginally closer to Athis village than it is to Tours-sur-Marne town. Therefore, it seems reasonable to have called it Athis. (which is what the Americans did when they took it over). The fact that it doesn't appear to be in the Bodenorganisation list of airfields is a problem for which I have no solution because the evidence that it was in use by the Luftwaffe in Aug 1944 is overwhelming. Perhaps it was in use for too short a time to make it into the Bodenorganisation.

3. The status of Plivot is more difficult. We know it existed pre-war and it still exists now - apparently in the same place. It is referred to several times in the Ultra reports - but sometimes as Plivot-Athis. It's also appears in your airfield intelligence summaries. My guess is that "Plivot-Athis" was the Tours-sur-Marne airfield the details of which I included in my previous post, ie it was a dispersal field for Plivot.

The Vraux people say that Plivot was not used by the Luftwaffe because of its open position. That's where I have doubts. Perhaps it was in use until the allied breakout made it too vulnerable to fighter-bomber sweeps. Its functions were then transferred to the newly built Athis/Tours-sur-Marne airfield. Remember the Ultra signal from Jg 27 to Jg3 saying that Athis was servicable for landing on about 10th Aug? - perhaps that's when Plivot closed down and was superseded by Athis/Tours-sur-Marne (which might explain why it doesn't appear in the Allied airfield intelligence summaries you posted). The only other explanation is that the Luftwaffe built the Athis/Tours-sur-Marne airfield much earlier to replace Plivot but continued to call the new airfield Plivot.

A lot of perhaps. Tomorrow I'm going to the National Archives to look at AIR intelligence files about airfields in France. There may be a clue there. I shall also go back through the Ultra decrypts I have and see if there's a time-line pattern to the Plivot and Athis references which might corroborate the idea that Plivot was in use until mid-Aug and was then superseded by Athis/Tours-sur-Marne.

A slightly baffling problem but I shall let you know what if anything I discover.

Cheers Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Larry - I just re-read your post. The map does not show Plivot airfield because it is situated to the south of Plivot village beyond the southern edge of the map. Ditto Ponancy which is even further to the south. If you look at Google maps in satellite view you'll see what I mean.

Cheers

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Okay, your recapitulation has sorted this out and removed a lot of the smoke that was obscuring the target for me. With Plivot and Pocancy now out of the way, we are down to one airfield vying for two names: Athis and Tours-sur-Marne, which you explained very cogently.

I do know that the Germans were always looking for nearby pieces of land that not only had a straight and level field for take-offs and landings of the right length, but that also had dispersal capability such as a close at hand grove of trees or a woods that could be used to conceal aircraft. So if a wave of P-47s approached Plivot and found it empty, and the pilots failed to detect the new dispersal field or satellite nearby because of the absence of aircraft (which were concealed among the trees) and the absence of tire tracks that would indicate an active airstrip, then they would fly off none the wiser. So did you notice the presence of a woods near Athis/Tours-sur-Marne when you visited? That one variable alone could have been the reason the Germans established Athis/Tours-sur-Marne in summer 1944 as a dispersal field for Plivot. In a word, potential concealment for aircraft.

I'll refrain from further speculation and await the results of your findings at BNA (PRO) Kew. Good luck!

Larry

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Hi Larry

If you compare the aerial phototgraph of Tours-sur-Marne/Athis from 15th August 1944 to Google satellite you will find that the location of fields, woods etc today is surprisingly similar. By the way, the aerial photo is orientated West at the top and north at the right. The long straight line running top tobottom is the railway line.

Tours-sur-Marne/Athis is bordered by dense woodland on its northern edge. Things have not changed much. However, in 1944 there are some tracks into the woodland which do not exist today. I assume they were service roads of some kind - for example, to aircraft dispersal points in the woodland.

So, for exactly the reasons you give, Tours-sur-Marne/Athis airfield was probably built as either an alternative to Pivot or as a dispersal field for Plivot. The Vraux museum curator says that Plivot was not used by the Luftwaffe because Plivot was, and still is, located in open farmland where it's difficult to conceal aircraft from those pesky Mustangs. In comparison, Tours-sur-Marne/Athis was bordered by woodland where aircraft and materiel could be better concealed.

Now, just to really confuse things even further. Last night I started looking again at the Ultra decrypts. A signal to II./Jg 3 on the 17th August mentions Tours-sur-Marne; the same signal copied to III./Jg 3 mentions Pocancy. The signal is about evacuating stores - presumably as part of the transfer to the Reich. There is another related signal the following day. What do you make of these? [ATTACH]Attachment 7955[/ATTACH]

Chris

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Yes, Christ, I agree about the woods and I think your rationalization is right on the mark.

As for the intercepts, the first one is a signal of 18 August from JG 3 to the quartermaster (supply) branch of II. Jagdkorps that gives the fuel requirements for each component of JG 3. The fuel was to be delivered to the specified locations. The unstated operation referred to is either a mission or the fuel was to move the units to the stated locations or on to their next destinations. I could not determine which message was sent first, but I don’t think it matters for our purposes.

Larry

Re: 22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)
 

Hi Larry

I spent yesterday at National Archives trying to nail down the Athis/Tours-sur-Marne/Plivot issue. I looked at airfield lists (Air40/2915 (july44 supplement to June list) ,2916 (1942 list) .2917 (1941 list), 2918 (June44 list) and Ultra decyrpts (HW5/556 August 10th 44).

The solution to the problem we have been discussing can be found in those files. I should have looked at them earlier - it would have saved me a lot of time.

It seems that there are some red herrings out there in published sources.

"Plivot" is referred to as "Epernay-Plivot" in the official British airfield lists. In the June 1944 list (and in the July supplement to the same list) "Epernay-Plivot" was not believed to be in use by the Luftwaffe (see thumbnails attached).

Athis had several alternative names as follows: "Tours-sur-Marne" "Bessuil" and "Athis". It came into use in August (see thumbnails attached) probably on the 10th when Jg27 reported it as operational. According to Ultra, Jg 27 had been ordered to arrange the reception of Jg 3 in the Chalons area.

"Pocancy" (see thumbnail attached) was believed to be in use by the Luftwaffe (from 10th August it seems to have been occupied by elements of III./Jg 3 - according to several Ultra decrypts over several dates).

An Ultra decrypt of the order to transfer Jg3 to the Chalons area (T271/17 of the 7th August) has a comment attached by the analyst to the effect that the airfield codes used in the signal were ambiguous. That is, the analyst couldn't be certain which airfields in the Chalons area the codes referred to. Several possibilities are mentioned including Bisseuil (one of the alternative names for Athis). My interpretation of this is that the confusion arose because (1) the Athis field was still under construction and a consistent code hadn't been defined for it (2) the allies' own lists had several alternative names for it.

I shall edit that very annoying and inaccurate Wikapedia entry for Athis. It might be a good idea to contact the source publishing allied airfield lists you referred to in earlier posts, and ask for a correction to be made in later editions. The Bodenorganisation maps/lists you mentioned were probably never brought up to date because the field at Athis was only active for less than three weeks.

So far as I'm concerned the above information closes the issue. However, I must say I've developed a taste for airfield archeology detective work. Particularly those in the Chalons area. Would you (or anybody else) be interested in a joint project with objective of finding all the airfields in the Chalons area and which Luftwaffe units were based there in 1944. The curator has offered to take me to the site of the old Athis/Tours-sur-Marne field where apparently there are still relics of its occupancy. I shall mention the project to him if you or anybody else is interested.

Finally, I'm not sure if there any copyright issues around posting jpegs of NA documents here. I don't want to lose my NA reader access so I shall delete the thumbnails once you've had a chance to look at them. If you would like copies let me know and I'll send them to you privately.

All the best

Chris