KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi guys

As far as I am aware, the last German aircraft shot down in the Aegean area fell on the night of 6/7 October 1944. Yet, after this date and almost until the end of war, fairly frequent supply flights to Rhodes and Crete were maintained by a variety of aircraft from KG200, 14./TG4 and II/KG4, these same aircraft evacuating the sick and wounded.

Since the German garrisons on Rhodes and Crete were practically non-combant and short of food etc, was there some sort of agreement on the Allies part not to shoot down these aircraft? Perhaps that is rather naive of me to suggest this, but considering the RAF had dozens of radar-equipped night fighters, Beaufighters and Mosquitos, in the area, surely interceptions could have been made.

Just a thought but comments would be appreciated.

Cheers
Brian

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

This might be of interest

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...&highlight=252

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hello Brian,

there was a later los of Kommando Schumm (23.10.44)

6./KG 4 (Fp.Nr. 33 623)
ab Mitte Okt. 43 nach Polykastron zu Ewakuierungsmassnahmen (Kdo. Schumm)
St.Kpt., FF. Hptm. Hans Schumm mit BO. Ltn. Walter Dörfer, 23.10.44 beide (+) beim Flug nach Rhodos
am 31.10.44 unter Hptm. Weiler nach Agram verlegt
St.Kpt., ab 15.11.44, FF. Hptm. Willy Gembus


Regards


Byron

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Thanks for that, Byron

I had the 108 Squadron claim but was not certain of the loss.

Cheers
Brian

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hello Byron,

Quite new that one are you sure that these guys lost flying ???

3 more , at least 2 sure in the area , the third one...

21 10 44 6 KG4 Euböa/Fuböa Insel 60 km Östl, GRIECH, X HE111H-20 700028 5J+GP 100
14 10 44 6 KG4 X X HE111H-20 701697 5J+CP
12 10 44 4 II KG27 Iraklion 20 km N Notwasserung HE111H-20 701243 1G+BM

Rémi

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

According to NVM:
1944-10-21, 6./KG 4, He 111H-20, 700028, 5J+GP, 60 km östlich Insel Fuböa, Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
F Hptm Schumm, Johannes, vermißt
Kb Uffz Geißler, Heinz, vermißt
Bf Fw Büker, Friedrich, vermißt
Bw Fw Mayer, Leonhard, vermißt
1944-12-24, 4./KG 4, He 111H-20, 701673, 5J+CM, Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
F Uffz Kiehling, Heinz, vermißt
Kb Lt Dörfer, Walter, vermißt
Bf Uffz Ritter, Egon, vermißt
Bw Uffz Marotzke, Heinz, vermißt
Bs Uffz Kaplanek, Werner, vermißt

Matti

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hello Matti,

Thanks for these exact Informations. I think the second plane was lost at the 24.10.44 and not 24.12.44, please take a look again. What means your saurce NVM ?? I think this plane was under the command of Kdo.Schumm (6./K.G. 6), than only parts of this Staffel participated at the Räumung von Kreta and Rhodos.

Hello Remi,

About the los you refear of He 111 H 20 (1G+BM), I have the 01.10.44 as follows:
01.10.44 4./KG 27 FF. Herbert Mittrach (+), He 111 H 20 (1G+BM , W.Nr. 701243) 100% Notwasserung 20 km nördlich Iraklion bei der Räumung von Kreta


Regards Byron

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi, Byron and all

NVM means Namentliche Verlustmeldung, which is a document issued by the unit when there was either:

- a member of a unit wounded
- a member of a unit killed
- a member of a unit missing

See example for the cover page of one such document
Regards,
Andreas B

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Date for the 701243 hv to be the 12.Oct. because in an other doc. complement for the crew is given retaining the same Wn. oder....


Rémi

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi, guys.

Would the summary loss record for the units be of interest for this period?

What units would you like me to cover?

I think Matti has the correct date for 701673. II./K.G.4 did not report a loss for 24th October 1944, but they did report an aircraft missing on 24.12.1944 (reported in the GenQu loss list of January 12th 1945)

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

I suspect there were few interceptions because of the difficulties in achieving them. There was not the full air defence system as over the UK, and only a small number of flights over a large area. It would have taken a large investment in night fighters to "flood" the area to improve the chances of catching the odd German.

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Actually the period where British nightfighters were the most efficient over the Aegean Sea was some days in end September/begin October 1944, because a HMS cruiser equiped with radar and a guidance station sailed in the area and remained in place to guide them.

After this date I don't think such help was available for the RAF crews, and so intercepting German aircraft was far more difficult.

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi guys

Thanks for all the info that has come flooding in - great stuff.

Yes, Andreas, I would very much like to see a summary of losses.

What caused the loss of 1G+BM on 12/10/44, 5J+CP on 14/10/44 and 5J+CM on 24/12/44?

Cheers
Brian

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi, all

What units should I include in the overview of losses?

Obviously II./KG 4

What others?

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi Andreas

How about 14/TG4 and IV/TG1 and SARGr.126.

Any details would be great.

Thanks in advance

Brian

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

According to Waiss, Boelcke-Archiv, VI (and I certainly may have errored in transcribing these - one is obviously wrong):

He 111H-20, 701243, n.n., , , 4., KG 27, , 1G+EM, , , 01-Oct-44, Notwasserung due to attack by English nightfighter in the Crete area. Bs KIA., , Mittelmeer, Waiss, Boelcke-Archiv, VI, p.124, , 20km nördlich Heraklion, 100%, F, Bs Gefr. Herbert Mittrach, ,
He 111H-20, 701243, Becks, Ofw. Wilhelm, , , 7., KG 27, , , , , 12-Oct-44, Missing with crew during transport flight from Mega to Belgrad-Semlin., F & B were groundcrew!, Ostfront, Waiss, Boelcke-Archiv, VI, p.129, , Ort unbekannt, 100%, H, B Uffz. Karl Neumann, Bf Fw. Klaus Schubbert & Bs Fw. Joachim Styburski, ,

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Thanks Andreas,

KG 27 loses over the Ägean sea in Okt.1944 would be of great interest as well.

Remi,

take a look on Jim.P notice, any coment about it?

Byron

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Never focused on Greece, but going through ULTRA I noticed MONSUN 2 (GAF Greece) was making inquires throughout the second part of October 1944 for three HE 111s (1G+AP, AR, BM) missing during night transport on 12 Oct 1944 from Mega/Polikastron to Belgrade-Zemun. Also noticed, that Y-service intercepted message (reported in ULTRA) that one Glider (Go 242???) was lost with equipment of 8/GAF Signals Regiments.

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi, guys

Have registered II./K.G.4, IV./T.G.4 and IV./T.G.1.

Following to go:

K.G.27 - was all parts of the unit stationed in this area or just parts?
SAGr 126

Regards,
Andreas A

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi Andreas,

SAGr 126 was until 10.44 in Greece, KG 27 only parts in Oktober 1944 (as far as i know).
IV./T.G. 1, August 1942 aus Maleme Versorgung des Afrikakorps, Teile in GR ab 30.08.44 beim Abtransport der Truppen

From T.G. 2 i have parts of the Staffel 1, 5, 7 and 10
aus dem K.G. z.b.V. 600 05.43 entstanden und gleich nach GR / Ellinikon

From T.G. 4, Stab, I./T.G. 4, II./T.G. 4 and parts of 14./T.G.4
Stab 05.1943 aufgestellt, 10.44 aufgelöst; Stab I ab Juni 1943 in GR, Stab II ab Okt. 1943 in GR;
2. u. 6./TG 4 bei der Eroberung von Leros (4 Maschinen abgestürzt). 08.43 mit Stab in Kifissia, I. in Kalamaki, II. in Tatoi und IV. in Eleusis und Megara


regards Byron

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

take a look on Jim.P notice, any coment about it?

Byron

I think both are right just one complemented the other , I asked to Walter seems not to hv more notices

Rémi

Seeaufklärungsgruppe 126
 

Hi.

These are the losses of the Seeaufklärungsgruppe 126 as reported to GenQu 6 Abt. I included all losses listed for 1944 as I am interested in obtaining detailed information on these and the number was relatively low.

Other units to follow.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi Andreas

Great start! Many thanks. Food for thought!

One possibility I note is the loss of two Ar196s on 6 March 1944. I have nothing noted for this date - except that G/C Max Aitken claimed two Ju52s on the night of 5/6 March, which do not appear in the Ju52 loss list! Misidentification??

We need more details.

Cheers
Brian

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi, again

Here are the IV./T.G.1 losses. I decided to post the entire 1944 for them also.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi Andreas

For those of us not used to these listings, what does category and its digits stand for in this case?

Cheers
Stig

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hello Andreas,

Thank you very much for your lists. I examined the first one about the loses of Aufkl.Gru. 126 and have some questions:

18.06.44 4./126
I have the los of these two planes on the 17th of June
17.06.44 beim Schiffsgeleit von „GK 91“, „Aspassia Pi 1090“, „Ioannis Kutifaris Sam.19“, „Maria Vol.30“ und einem unbesetzten Motorsegler auf der Reise von Chania nach Piräus, bei der Kamilli-Bucht,
Ar 196 A5 (D1+AN, W.Nr. 623010) 100% und Ar 196 A5 (D1+FN, W.Nr. 100505) 100% von 5 (227 Sqn) Beaufightern und 4 Blenheims abgeschossen; Besatzungen von den Schiffen ohne Ausfälle aufgenommen.
FF. Uffz. Paduch, Ar 196 A5 (D1+AN, W.Nr. 623010) 100% m. BO. Ltn. Böckling
FF. Ogfr. Schramm, Ar 196 A5 (D1+FN, W.Nr. 100505) 100% m. BO. Uffz. Busse, im gleichen Geleit
17.06.44 wie oben beschrieben. Besatzung leicht verwundet


Is that your los, or you mean an other one?

I don`t have the following loses of your list:

12.02.44 Stab 126
06.03.44 Stab 126
06.04.44 4./126
29.06.44 1./126
21.09.44 1./126

Do you have more details about them, crew etc ??

regards
byron

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi, Byron

As you can see from the screenshot there is a green colour around the number on the row of 18.06.1944. This means there is a specific comment, either there was a comment on the original page, or I have made one myself.

In this case the comment is that the loss date might be erronous, because of the page being smudged and the date of loss nearly unreadable.

Thanks for the correction, I will update it and post a new screenshot.

I have no details on these losses, as you know this would require detailed research on other records like the NVM's and I have not done this on this unit as it is not in my major area of interest which is the northern front.

The idea behind posting these losses was that everyone that can contribute would do so, so we in turn might get as much detail as possible on all the losses of the unit.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi, Byron

Update:

12.02.44 Stab 126 - Aircraft only damaged/lost
06.03.44 Stab 126 - Aircraft only damaged/lost
06.04.44 4./126 - 2 non-officers dead - NVM should exist
29.06.44 1./126 - Aircraft only damaged/lost
21.09.44 1./126 - 2 crewmembers, one an officer, wounded - NVM should exist

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Dear Andreas,

I understand, maybe somebody else has more about this very interesting unit and its loses in the last year 1944 of the occupation in Greece.

The following victory of the SAAF is also of great interest

01.06.44 Luftkampf 25 sm nördlich Iraklion beim Geleitzug von 4 T-Booten (TA 14, TA 16, TA 17, TA 19),3 U-Jägern (UJ-2101, 2105, 2110) und 2 R-Booten (R34 und R 211) mit den Dampfern „Gertrud“, „Tanais“ und „Sabine“.
4 Me 109, 4 Ju 88 und 4 Ar 196 der 4./126 begleiten das Geleit, Fahrt Piräus-Kreta.
Um 18.00 Uhr im Qu. 3722 von 12 Maraudern (24 Sqn.SAAF), 18 Baltimors (15 Sqn.SAAF) und 24 Beaufightern (252, 227, 16 und 603 Sqn) angegriffen.

13 Spitfires (94 Sqn) und 4 Mustangs (213 Sqn) übernahmen den Jagdschutz.
KTB Bemerkung: Die Ju 88 Sicherung konnte an Hand ihrer unterlegenen Geschwindigkeit nichts ausrichten und setzte sich beim Angriff ab. Einige eigene Jäger wurden wohl gesichtet, traten aber wenig in Erscheinung. Die Aradosicherung stand zum Teil während des Tiefangriffes mitten zwischen den Beaufightern, musste sich aber an Hand der Unterlegenheit selbst in Sicherheit bringen.
UJ-2101, UJ-2105 und „Sabine“ wurden getroffen und sanken. „Gertrud“ und „TA 16“ wurden am nächsten Tag , den 02.06.44, im Hafen von Iraklion wo sie Zuflucht suchten, durch Flibo von 9 Wellingtons der Sq.38,11 SAAF Baltimores und 11 SAAF Maraudern versenkt.
An diesen 2 Tagen die SAAF verlor 4 Beaufighter, 1 Baltimore und 1 Wellington, alle Opfer der Schiffsflak .

Bei den Gefechten wurden 1 Me 109 und 3 Ar 196 abgeschossen, 1 Ar 196 beschädigt (227 Sqn);
Das beschädigte Flugzeug war eine Ar 196 A5 (W.Nr. 1960349);
Besatzungen der Ar 196 der 4./126 waren:

FF. Ofw. Werner Kurth mit BO. Ltn. Böckling,
FF. Ofw. Kurt Chalupka mit BO. Oblt. Schäfer,
FF. Ofw. Fritz Rupp mit BO. Oblt. Richter,
FF. Uffz. Hässler mit BO. Uffz. Buss



b.r. Byron

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi, Byron

Very interesting.

Is it possible that this unit operated under another name on the date? I haven't yet entered all seaplane unit losses, and thus cannot say if these 4 losses appear under another unit.

Since four crews with a total of eight pilots/observers seems to have been involved (did they survive?), it should be possible to get further information on this incident.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

BTW - do you have any idea with regards to the unit of the Bf 109?

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi Andreas & Byron

My understanding of the 1 June 1944 action is that the four Arado crews you mention each claimed a Beaufighter shot down, not that they were shot down!!

However, a Beaufighter did claim an Ar196 so possibly one of the four was forced to ditch!

Great stuff!

Brian

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi, Brian

I read it the following way:

During this combat 1 Messerschmitt Bf 109 and 3 Arado 196 was shot down and 1 Arado Ar 196 was damaged.

If it was the other way around it would in my opinion read (in German):

Bei den Gefechten wurden durch 1 Me 109 und 3 Ar 196 4 Beaufighter abgeschossen

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi Andreas

I believe Byron has it wrong!

Over to you, Byron

Cheers
Brian

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Both are right , 4 Ar196 hv been lost or at least 2 100 % nd 2 with soft damages but they managed , with some of their friends to shot down 4 Beaufighers

Byron what about the 8 crews safe ?? No NVM exist, so I wonder if...


Rémi

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Dear friends,

My saurces about the big strike of 01.06.44 are:

1) the german wardiary of 31. Bordflakabteilung
2) the book "Alamein to the Alps 454 squadron, RAAF 1941-1945" by Marc Lax

From both saurces i get the inpression that the allies`casualties were caused by antiaircraft fires of the german ships and not by any Arados. There was only one los believed shot down by escorting Me 109 s, (warrand officer George Liels with his navigator flying officer Ed Quinlan, wireles operator Max Schultz and flying officer Max Short).

There is no indication about the fate of the 8 german airmen. Attached a page of the book about the los of the Arados.

regards
byron

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi.

Rémi - what is your source for the Arados that were damaged or lost?

There seem to be no reason for them whatsoever to be 'missing' from the records.

My best bet is that they were named something else than 4./126, but I will also recheck the page layout for the loss lists of this unit in case I have a page missing in my collectuon.

As of now we have only secondary sources to these losses?

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Probably all these guys were un or slightly wounded , I traced Buss/Busse nd Böckling/Böcking still in action on 17.June 44 , but with different pilots,
Hässler was sligthly wounded in sept. 44

Rémi

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi,

Remi ist right about the two of them

17.06.44 beim Schiffsgeleit von „GK 91“, „Aspassia Pi 1090“, „Ioannis Kutifaris Sam.19“, „Maria Vol.30“ und einem unbesetzten Motorsegler auf der Reise von Chania nach Piräus, bei der Kamilli-Bucht,
Ar 196 A5 (D1+AN, W.Nr. 623010) 100% und Ar 196 A5 (D1+FN, W.Nr. 100505) 100% von 5 (227 Sqn) Beaufightern und 4 Blenheims abgeschossen; Besatzungen von den Schiffen ohne Ausfälle aufgenommen.
FF. Uffz. Paduch, Ar 196 A5 (D1+AN, W.Nr. 623010) 100% m. BO. Ltn. Böckling,
FF. Ogfr. Schramm, Ar 196 A5 (D1+FN, W.Nr. 100505) 100% m. BO. Uffz. Busse, im gleichen Geleit
17.06.44 wie oben beschrieben. Besatzung leicht verwundet
byron

Re: KG200 Greece/Rhodes/Crete 1944-45
 

Hi.

Have checked the records again - the summary losses for 4./126 can appear in two places:

1. On the sheets marked with the 4./126
2. On the sheets marked with Aufkl.Gr. 126 - ohne Angabe der Staffel.

I have found that the last sheet for Aufkl.Gr. 126 - ohne Angabe der Staffel this sheet is filled, with the last entries being 6.3.44 and 17.11.1944 - a very long leap in time indeed.

This is not uncommon, but there is also quite common that a record following such a long timespan might be inbetween, but it is usually then marked in the margin where it should have been registered.

So - still no primary records on this one.

Regards,
Andreas B